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Old 7th December 2010, 09:41   #1
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Post Query regarding music system in Altis

Friends. I just took delivery of a 1.8 G Toyota Altis. While the car is quite all right, its sound system falls short of its expectations. I needed advice from all you Gurus regarding how I can add an additional set of tweeters to the existing 6 speakers along with adding a subwoofer, using the same stock Head Unit, which comes with the car. I expect this would cost me up to 20 Grand.

I would also like to hear from you regarding what you feel about using the above strategy to improve the sound in the car. I am majorly finicky with sound quality, but would not like to spend more than 45 to 50 Grand Max on the entire exercise. Neither do I have the luxury of leaving the car for a day for the same. Pl advise me in case you feel an alternate strategy would provide for a more enriching sound experience.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks and regards,

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Old 7th December 2010, 10:39   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by druberoi View Post
I needed advice from all you Gurus regarding how I can add an additional set of tweeters to the existing 6 speakers along with adding a subwoofer, using the same stock Head Unit, which comes with the car. I expect this would cost me up to 20 Grand.

I would also like to hear from you regarding what you feel about using the above strategy to improve the sound in the car. I am majorly finicky with sound quality, but would not like to spend more than 45 to 50 Grand Max on the entire exercise.
The biggest issue with the stock system are the speakers.

I would change all 4 front and rear stock speakers, and get a 4ch. amplifier with speaker level inputs and use it to drive the front speakers and a small subwoofer in the the trunk.

Front components: 6K - JBL GT6, Bull Audio, Blaupunkt THc, ALpine SPX
Rear Coax: 4K JBL GT6, Bull Audio, Blaupunkt THx, ALpine SPX
Amp: 7K JBL 644, Pioneer 6400, Kenwood 845
12" Suubwoofer with box: 9K JBL, Blaupnkt, Bull Audio
Damping: 2K
Wires and Install: 3K
------------------
Total about 30K

If you want a little better sound you can upgrade the front and rear speakers (Alpine SPR, Infinity, DLS, etc...18K for a set of front and rear) use a better amp (DLS, Harman, 15K) and get a nicer subwoofe (Ground Zero, Infinity, etc..).
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Old 7th December 2010, 14:28   #3
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Navin, Alpine spx comps are available for 200$ in the US and cost about 16-17,000 bucks here in India. I know because I just bought a pair of spx-13ref. Maybe you meant the sps series.

Last edited by Astleviz : 7th December 2010 at 14:37.
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Old 8th December 2010, 11:04   #4
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Default re: Query regarding music system in Altis

[quote=navin;2165975]The biggest issue with the stock system are the speakers.

I would change all 4 front and rear stock speakers, and get a 4ch. amplifier with speaker level inputs and use it to drive the front speakers and a small subwoofer in the the trunk.
__________________________________________________ ______

I am somehow reluctant to dispose of the brand new speakers. Thus was thinking that just adding the extra tweeter and / or the subwoofer would helpin improving the sound. If it does not, I could always move on to replacing the original speakers at that stage.

Pl advise.
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Old 8th December 2010, 11:53   #5
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Default re: Query regarding music system in Altis

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Originally Posted by druberoi View Post
I am somehow reluctant to dispose of the brand new speakers. Thus was thinking that just adding the extra tweeter and / or the subwoofer would helpin improving the sound. If it does not, I could always move on to replacing the original speakers at that stage.

Pl advise.
Stock speakers suck!! Audition a few good brands and you'll get to know the difference.
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Old 8th December 2010, 13:32   #6
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The biggest issue with the stock system are the speakers...
... just adding the extra tweeter and / or the subwoofer would helpin improving the sound. ...
If one buys a car and adds a wing, tail and propellers, it will not become an aircraft. Sure, it will move, but fly it will not - defeating the original premise in the first place.

Adding a sub may make some difference at the low end, but most likely it will make for muddy music, with the sub overpowering the stock speakers and no control at the HU to correct that.

Adding tweeters is theoretically possible, but practically infeasible as you would not have a cross-over to control the integration with stock speakers. Result? Well, if you have ever heard a chila-chila ishtereo shyshtem 15 years back (when adding 'tuters' was a fashion), the objective was not listening to music - it was to show off to passers-by (and incidentally suffering headaches and dumbly tolerating it in the name of 'kilaritee' ).

Last edited by DerAlte : 8th December 2010 at 13:33.
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Old 8th December 2010, 14:46   #7
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Navin, Alpine spx comps are available for 200$ in the US and cost about 16-17,000 bucks here in India. I know because I just bought a pair of spx-13ref. Maybe you meant the sps series.
Sorry that was a typo. It comes from doing 2-3 things at the time. I meant Alpine SPS. Nice catch Astleviz.
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Old 8th December 2010, 14:56   #8
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Adding tweeters is theoretically possible, but practically infeasible as you would not have a cross-over to control the integration with stock speakers. Result? Well, if you have ever heard a chila-chila ishtereo shyshtem 15 years back (when adding 'tuters' was a fashion), the objective was not listening to music - it was to show off to passers-by (and incidentally suffering headaches and dumbly tolerating it in the name of 'kilaritee' ).
________________________________________

OK! OK! I get the point. Will do as advised.

Now pl specify which speakers should I buy for the front and rear. Exactly what I should buy. The Amps included. (I do not have a line out) Subs are a must. No options. Options confuse the issue for the average person. Do we change the tweeters too? My entire budget is upto 45G max. And also let me know where in Delhi / Gurgaon can I get it done?

I would also like to hear what you feel about the Sony Xplod speakers and subs. Are they worth it.

Thanks and regards

druberoi
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Old 8th December 2010, 18:17   #9
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Originally Posted by druberoi View Post
... No options. Options confuse the issue for the average person. Do we change the tweeters too? My entire budget is upto 45G max. And also let me know where in Delhi / Gurgaon can I get it done?

I would also like to hear what you feel about the Sony Xplod speakers and subs. Are they worth it. ...
While one cannot totally write off Sony, it should be the last resort. There are many other speaker brands / makes whose output is more melodious compared to Sony speakers. The issue of popularity of Sony is more dependent on people buying a 'brand' without discerning good or bad output, as compared to knowing and wanting good sound.

Before you decide, please take your time looking around in Gurgaon and Delhi (search the ICE forum for 'Gurgaon Delhi shop installer') what is available at what price, or what deals are the shops offering. Driven in EoK seems to be a knowledgeable and popular option. What you should ask for:
1. 6.5" components (set of midbass and tweeter) (JBL, Infinity, Blaupunkt, Hertz, Bull etc.)
2. 6x9 oval coaxial speakers (as above)
3. Line Output Converter (since you don't have Line-outs)
4. 12" subwoofer (JBL, Infinity, Blaupunkt, Hertz, Bull etc.)
5. 4-channel amplifier (JBL, Infinity, Kenwood, Blaupunkt) (NOT Alpine, unfortunately they might be good-looking fakes; components and sub will be driven by amp, ovals by HU)
6. Cables / wires and labour

Don't believe anything they say till they tell you exact model numbers and offer you an audition of the same. Put up your scan results here, and we can help you decide. Your budget is a very decent one, and I have a feeling that unless you change the HU, you will be able to make do with less than that.
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Old 9th December 2010, 10:08   #10
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Don't believe anything they say till they tell you exact model numbers and offer you an audition of the same. Put up your scan results here, and we can help you decide. Your budget is a very decent one, and I have a feeling that unless you change the HU, you will be able to make do with less than that.
_________________________________________________

Had gone to a showroom in Gurgaon. A major accessories shopping mall. And I asked them to demo the options. They flatly refused saying the stuff comes sealed etc etc. I was about to walk off, when a young manager relented and said he has one of his customer's cars with him for tuning and I could hear the end product.

The car was just amazing. The sound was terrific. But what the hell, the tweeters itself cost 1.5 lakhs. The entire system also needed a pioneer hu for perfect tuning!!! Something near 35 G + there. I hadnt even discussed the components and rear speakers. I was quite impressed though. One of the Amps was giving a display of coloured lights, colouring its surroundings. Solid looking stuff allright. 14 kgs. Well, the car actually shook. And so did the car standing next to it. And the one next to it. It had 4 * 12 " subs in closed boxes (2) and ported boxes (2). Guess what was the total cost I was quoted. Nine and a half lakhs. INR. The best part was that cross overs would cost separate because they use only Esotec or Esoter something. (and an equalizer comes free with them!!!?) This was going way out of my range. This was a roller coaster. My wife was thinking I have gone loco. With that much extra money, I could have bought a BMW, with a good music system, rather than the Corolla I settled on.

However, one thing seemed fishy. On being asked to show me the packed tweeter in a carton, he said they dont keep it on the rack but get it on order. Again for installation they said they need the car for a day or two and that its done in a special garage somewhere else. (I cant get it done in fron of me.) They were very much willing to pick up and drop the car from my place. (in Gurgaon) They could show me the packed HU (No printed MRP) and some special fat wires; but they did not have even one of the items used in this car in a packed box for display. (I wanted to check the printed costs.)

The other thing odd was that all the names he was quoting were new to me. Not that I have any experience with car audio. But I am seriously in to home audio and used to think that I would have atleast heard about most of the names or brands. Dont the famous brands which make good home audio, make stuff for the cars? I would feel much better knowing that I was getting a reliable quality which has a proven track record.

So! Now I need to find DRIVEN. Would anyone have their exact address?
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Old 9th December 2010, 11:48   #11
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While one cannot totally write off Sony

Don't believe anything they say till they tell you exact model numbers and offer you an audition of the same.
DA, Sony HUs are tolerable but their speakers? Many OEM speakers sound better!

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Originally Posted by druberoi View Post
Had gone to a showroom in Gurgaon.

But what the hell, the tweeters itself cost 1.5 lakhs.
Guess what was the total cost I was quoted. Nine and a half lakhs.

The other thing odd was that all the names he was quoting were new to me.
What was the name of this showroom? Do you remember it?

Even the best Dynaudio tweeters do not cost 1.5L per pair. A pair of T330 Esotar should cost under $1000 per pair (probably around $600-800). They are used in many audiophile speaker systems. see link below.
Merlin Music Systems - White Paper

Some 2-3 years ago I got a pair form audiogon for under $500 per pair then promptly fried them! Yes..bad things happen. The amp I was testing out out DC.

The car audio version MD 330 is a bit cheaper than the T330 so the shop was not telling you the full truth on the price.

druberoi, if the shop you are visiting begins by showing you a Rs.6-9 lakhs system they are just overselling it. Dont worry about brand names. Trust your ears.

Some 20 odd years ago when I first came to India I too had a similar experience. The Car audio shop I was directed to showed me a system cost Rs. 5 lakhs (in 1989) in a Premier 118NE. They looked down at my requirements. I took my wallet and left. Their loss. Now this was a time when my audio skills were much much sharper than they are today. The shop did not care enough about it's customer to listen to him/her.

The sales person should have first asked you your taste in music and your budget and maybe if you were willing to sacrifice some boot space for the subwoofer. Anyway it is his (I presume the sales person was male) loss.

There are many shops in Delhi (find Panky, Autophile or LBM all members on TBHP and they will guide you) that do a good job.

BTW I am told LBM's personal Swift can be heard in Delhi (all the way from Freedabad) so consider yourself warned. Just kidding LBM.
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Old 9th December 2010, 12:39   #12
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5. 4-channel amplifier (JBL, Infinity, Kenwood, Blaupunkt) (NOT Alpine, unfortunately they might be good-looking fakes; components and sub will be driven by amp, ovals by HU)
Is there a reason why there are alpine fakes in the market but not jbl/infinity/kenwood/blaupunkt/rockford fakes? has it got to do with popularity? Because then there would be fakes for jbl/pioneer/sony which are a lot more popular than alpine here. Or is it that Alpine hasn't got a presence here in India so they don't actively scan the market for fakes and deal with the situation?
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Old 9th December 2010, 14:27   #13
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Is there a reason why there are alpine fakes in the market but not jbl/infinity/kenwood/blaupunkt/rockford fakes? has it got to do with popularity? Because then there would be fakes for jbl/pioneer/sony which are a lot more popular than alpine here. Or is it that Alpine hasn't got a presence here in India so they don't actively scan the market for fakes and deal with the situation?
i've seen JBL, Pioneer and Sony fakes. Pioneer subs as well as HUs. JBL fakes mostly in wiring. Sony fakes in 6x9, 6.5, 4"...

to query:
OE speakers have no value. they are very basic, they can' be amplified, and they are made at a very low cost. you can add a pre-amplified base bin however, that's an economy solution for those not planning any more upgrade to OE.

for 45-50k, you can get a good HU - 10k. a 4 ch amp - 6-8k. a set of components and co-ax - 10-22k. a mono amp - 10-14k and a sub 7-12k. add some 6-8k for wiring n box and basic damping.

you can also put up your whole existing setup for sale on classifieds, as it is brand new, you can get the best price for it.

alternatively, for such a setup, you can keep the original HU and add a line convertor speaker to RC. this gives a better output and more freedom to tune the amps, speakers inputs give very low signal strength.. but are good if you want only a single amp... then its not worth spending that extra money.

driven info you'll find in thread of delhi-ncr. (mods can someone edit my post in that section, i'd mentioned i have no commercial relationship, from 14 dec, i will have as import agent, nothing to do with retail.)
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Old 9th December 2010, 16:00   #14
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driven info you'll find in thread of delhi-ncr. (mods can someone edit my post in that section, i'd mentioned i have no commercial relationship, from 14 dec, i will have as import agent, nothing to do with retail.)
Monty, I did not understand your statement. Do you currently have any relationship with Driven? Will you be getting into an relationship with Driven from the 14th of December?

You can post your status and changes to your status here.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...larations.html

Quote:
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Is there a reason why there are alpine fakes in the market but not jbl/infinity/kenwood/blaupunkt/rockford fakes? has it got to do with popularity? Because then there would be fakes for jbl/pioneer/sony which are a lot more popular than alpine here. Or is it that Alpine hasn't got a presence here in India so they don't actively scan the market for fakes and deal with the situation?
Anything that is sold you will find a fake. I recently found a whole bunch of fakes for Canon 60D/7D batteries (LP-E6). How odd is that. This is a battery used by just a few DSLRs and they will fake that too. Fortunately these Canon cameras have a way to detect fakes (some sort of chip).
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Old 9th December 2010, 16:15   #15
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... Guess what was the total cost I was quoted. Nine and a half lakhs. INR. ...
However, one thing seemed fishy. ...
I guess the guy who was buying it doesn't care how much he is paying, as long as someone is certifying "eet eej tha besht, bauji", and he can turn heads on the road. We can only shake our heads and sigh. Fishy? Not really. They are an accessories shop, not an ICE installer - someone else does it for them, they are content with the pomp and show and the fat commission. Obviously they couldn't show you the equipment - they don't have any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
DA, Sony HUs are tolerable but their speakers? Many OEM speakers sound better! ...
Sorry, I was just being polite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
Is there a reason why there are alpine fakes in the market ...?
My comment was specifically for NCR - Alpine is the fakers' all-time favorite brand.

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Originally Posted by montyguru View Post
... OE speakers have no value. they are very basic, they can' be amplified, ...
Sir, don't paint with a broad brush. What most of them lack is some bass, and wherever the OE fronts are components, they have decent treble response. Nothing great, but if 90% of the people are happy with OE systems, they have numbers on their side! Almost all such people don't have iPods or iPhones either, yet they listen to music and are not unhappy with what they have and don't care what is better in the world. Different philosophy, no?
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