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Old 29th September 2011, 20:37   #16
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
To the best of my knowledge:

1) The maximum effort beyond 60 kmph is spent in clearing the air. Aerodynamics mean a lot, there was some article either here on TBHP or in ACI mentioning the same. Some cube proportional to something, but overall, maximum energy is spent in clearing air, that is what I had read.

2) The current engines in India lack A/C and even lavatory facilities, both of them are a must IMO. Wonder why they are still not included, they must be. I hope with this new WDG5, things are much better.

3) Power, really we need more than 5500 bhp. There might not be any significant reason, but overall in a country where a goods train has to stop many times for allowing passenger trains to pass first and add to that massive tonnage to haul, more power is always welcome. A single engine developing 7000-8000 bhp means in some cases two engines need not be attached to a train.

Aerodynamics is one area in any case we need to invest into.
Aerodynamics will not matter much, if you calculate the surface area that the front presents with regards to the tractive force it is negligible. The difference it will make will not be much.

Also, when you consider aerodynamics, you will have to account for the rake behind the engine as well, this is what makes it more difficult.

Also, though Indian railways pegs speeds of some trains at 100- 120 kmph, the actual speeds achieved consistently are less, due to track conditions.

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
I can see the driver's cab, as usual, is at the very extreme of the loco. How does it satisfy the crashworthiness standards? I am not talking about the loco hitting people/cattle (Shashi Tharoor: please note these two are different!) crossing tracks, but another locomotive or a stationery train, the kind of accidents most likely to kill the motorman.

Probably silly, but is this engine bi-directional or uni-directional? In the model photo I can't see a cab on the other end of the engine.
In Railways as in cars, the crashworthiness is measured at certain speeds. Also, the logic is still to allow the 'cabin' to not collapse but the chassis can. The cabin is supported by an internal roll cage. Even passenger rakes have the toilet are function as a crumple zone.

All Loco's on the IR Network are bi directional.
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Old 30th September 2011, 00:37   #17
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Smile Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

I too am a fan of diesel electric engines living next to the station all my life .mumbai chinchpokili stn central railway. I always wondered how do they turn the diesel electric engines ? because they are having the cab in front and the entire engine behind so if driven the other way round it would make it difficult to navigate .I go to Victoria Terminus VT/CST every day and knowfor a fact that a turntable does not exist there with hundreds of express trains coming in and out everyday how do they face the engine the right way .Loved playing MS Train Simulator but now it dose not work well on win 7 64 bit . Its the only game I have andhave played on my PC.
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Old 30th September 2011, 07:22   #18
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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I too am a fan of diesel electric engines living next to the station all my life .mumbai chinchpokili stn central railway. I always wondered how do they turn the diesel electric engines ? because they are having the cab in front and the entire engine behind so if driven the other way round it would make it difficult to navigate .I go to Victoria Terminus VT/CST every day and knowfor a fact that a turntable does not exist there with hundreds of express trains coming in and out everyday how do they face the engine the right way .Loved playing MS Train Simulator but now it dose not work well on win 7 64 bit . Its the only game I have andhave played on my PC.
You don't need to turn the engine around, cause it can pull both ways.

As for the visibility angle, the Railway mandate is that you need to have the short hood front facing only when going through a ghat section. Most ghat sections have a set of coupled diesel locos' stationed at the Start/End station of the ghats that pull most trains passing by. Where the engines are coupled such that the long hoods are connected and the short hoods face the ends.
I've see these engines at Londa > Margao / Subramanya > Saklespur etc..

Ps: This info was given to me by a diesel engine driver.

Last edited by Fillmore : 30th September 2011 at 07:23.
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Old 30th September 2011, 10:26   #19
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

Nice thread! I love trains, and have seen the evolution from Steam engines to Diesel engines and finally to electric engines.

In the 60s, we used to boast to our kin staying in remote areas that we were travelling in diesel engined trains while the only option for them was to travel in steam engines, thereby getting their clothes dirty and faces soiled by coal. And that used to make them envious!

Nice to know that Indian Railways is upgrading its engines.

OT--During my first trip to the US, I saw trains being lugged by diesel engines that looked a lot like the ones we had here. On inquiry, someone said that the diesel engines manufactured in India (Chittaranjan) were actually the US engines licensed to be made in India. Is that correct?
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Old 30th September 2011, 10:41   #20
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
OT--During my first trip to the US, I saw trains being lugged by diesel engines that looked a lot like the ones we had here. On inquiry, someone said that the diesel engines manufactured in India (Chittaranjan) were actually the US engines licensed to be made in India. Is that correct?
Yes, IIRC the engines built at Chittaranjan (CLW) were all Alco locos. Alco is an American locomotive company. CLW built the engines under license from Alco. These include the WDG/P/M 2, 3, 3A and the like. The newer WDG/P/M 4 and above are GM locos.
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Old 30th September 2011, 11:13   #21
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by torquecurve View Post
Even passenger rakes have the toilet are function as a crumple zone.
A very wrong place to be in indeed during a crash.

BTW I heard a long time ago that the fastest train in India was not a Rajdhani but Shatabdi running between Bhopal and Delhi. They said it reached speeds of 140.

Is it still true?
What about the Swarna Shatabdi running between Lucknow and Delhi?

And finally do we have any Loco drivers here in team-bhp?
Will love to hear them.
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Old 30th September 2011, 11:47   #22
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by download2live View Post
BTW I heard a long time ago that the fastest train in India was not a Rajdhani but Shatabdi running between Bhopal and Delhi. They said it reached speeds of 140.
The Bhopal Shatabdi runs as 150kmph between Nizamuddin and Agra Cantonment. The rest of the section is covered at 130/120kmph. There is no other train in India that is permitted to go beyond 130kmph.

For the purpose of operating this train, a few WAP5 locomotives (5450HP, ABB designed, now built by CLW) were modified with re-inforced windshields and some other jobs to ensure they reached their destination in a single piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmore View Post
As for the visibility angle, the Railway mandate is that you need to have the short hood front facing only when going through a ghat section. Most ghat sections have a set of coupled diesel locos' stationed at the Start/End station of the ghats that pull most trains passing by. Where the engines are coupled such that the long hoods are connected and the short hoods face the ends.
Although there exists a rule, trains are often seen with single locos running long-hood forward on ghat routes. Crew find it hard to spot signals, but for them the route is like the back of their hand - they know where exactly the signals are, and they'd look out at the exact location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
Yes, IIRC the engines built at Chittaranjan (CLW) were all Alco locos. Alco is an American locomotive company. CLW built the engines under license from Alco. These include the WDG/P/M 2, 3, 3A and the like. The newer WDG/P/M 4 and above are GM locos.
Er! Chittaranjan Locomotive Works (CLW) produces Electric locomotives, and not diesel locomotives. CLW was established to produce steam locomotives, and they later progressed to produce Electric Locomotives. IIRC, CLW did produce some diesel locomotives in the intervening period, but the locomotives were mainly of the Hydraulic Transmission type, which were used for shunting operations (WDS4).

Diesel Locomotive Works (Lucknow) was established with the sole purpose of manufacturing diesel locomotives. In the initial days, the locomotives were produced using CKD kits imported from American Locomotive Company (ALCo). Later on, all parts were produced locally. DLW modified the original ALCo designs heavily, including changing the bogies, using bigger turbochargers to uprate the engine output from 2600hp to 3100hp (and now 3300hp).

DLW had two powerpacks at its disposal - the DL500 (12-Cyl, 4 Stroke producing 1950hp) and the DL560C (16-Cyl, 4 Stroke producing 2600hp). They also have the DL535A (6-Cyl, 4 stroke, producing 1350hp) - these were used in metre guage locos, and later in the WDS6/WDS6AD.

The DL500 was used in the WDM1 - which was the first diesel locomotive in India - this locomotive was unidirectional. The WDM2 came later, which went on to become the darling of Indian Railways. The WDM2 was pitted against the WDM4 (produced by GM) - WDM4 was considered better, but lost the race after GM did not agree on a Transfer-of-Technology agreement.

ALCo licensed DLW to produce locomotives based on their design - DLW modified them in many ways. They changed the conventional tri-mount ALCo Bogies, with High-adhesion ones, changed the design of the super structure, changed the cabin layout, and so on.

Now, DMW (Diesel Modernisation Works, Patiala) are rebuilding old ALCo design WDM2s to WDM3As with modern gadgets like microprocessor control, improved cabins, etc.
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Old 30th September 2011, 11:51   #23
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by Fillmore View Post
You don't need to turn the engine around, cause it can pull both ways.

As for the visibility angle, the Railway mandate is that you need to have the short hood front facing only when going through a ghat section. Most ghat sections have a set of coupled diesel locos' stationed at the Start/End station of the ghats that pull most trains passing by. Where the engines are coupled such that the long hoods are connected and the short hoods face the ends.
I've see these engines at Londa > Margao / Subramanya > Saklespur etc..

Ps: This info was given to me by a diesel engine driver.
The locos' stationed at the Ghat stations are more used for Banking rather than for Short Hood first.

Incidentally there used to be something called Turntable with which Steam Engines used to be turned around in the days gone by.
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Old 30th September 2011, 12:11   #24
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by binaiks View Post
Er! Chittaranjan Locomotive Works (CLW) produces Electric locomotives, and not diesel locomotives. CLW was established to produce steam locomotives, and they later progressed to produce Electric Locomotives. IIRC, CLW did produce some diesel locomotives in the intervening period, but the locomotives were mainly of the Hydraulic Transmission type, which were used for shunting operations (WDS4).

Diesel Locomotive Works (Lucknow) was established with the sole purpose of manufacturing diesel locomotives. In the initial days, the locomotives were produced using CKD kits imported from American Locomotive Company (ALCo). Later on, all parts were produced locally. DLW modified the original ALCo designs heavily, including changing the bogies, using bigger turbochargers to uprate the engine output from 2600hp to 3100hp (and now 3300hp).

DLW had two powerpacks at its disposal - the DL500 (12-Cyl, 4 Stroke producing 1950hp) and the DL560C (16-Cyl, 4 Stroke producing 2600hp). They also have the DL535A (6-Cyl, 4 stroke, producing 1350hp) - these were used in metre guage locos, and later in the WDS6/WDS6AD.

The DL500 was used in the WDM1 - which was the first diesel locomotive in India - this locomotive was unidirectional. The WDM2 came later, which went on to become the darling of Indian Railways. The WDM2 was pitted against the WDM4 (produced by GM) - WDM4 was considered better, but lost the race after GM did not agree on a Transfer-of-Technology agreement.

ALCo licensed DLW to produce locomotives based on their design - DLW modified them in many ways. They changed the conventional tri-mount ALCo Bogies, with High-adhesion ones, changed the design of the super structure, changed the cabin layout, and so on.

Now, DMW (Diesel Modernisation Works, Patiala) are rebuilding old ALCo design WDM2s to WDM3As with modern gadgets like microprocessor control, improved cabins, etc.
Oops!! I guess I did not remember correctly. Diesel Locomotive works (DLW) it is.

Btw, does DLW produce the GM WDG/P/M 4 and above series? I have seen some differences in different locos. Differences like the shape of the cab, some have a more boxy look and some have a more smooth curvy look. Some have twin lights and some have mono lights.
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Old 30th September 2011, 12:18   #25
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

I think there still exists a turntable near King's Circle or thereabouts. I remember spotting it when travelling from CST to King's Circle by the harbour line. This was almost 12-15 years back.
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Old 30th September 2011, 12:34   #26
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
Btw, does DLW produce the GM WDG/P/M 4 and above series? I have seen some differences in different locos. Differences like the shape of the cab, some have a more boxy look and some have a more smooth curvy look. Some have twin lights and some have mono lights.
Yes it does and all of them. The initial batch of locos (6 I think) was imported from GM which are more rounded and have better finish. The later ones which are indigenised using parts sourced from Indian vendors and are boxy. Also, all locos undergo constant improvements based on Crew / Mechanics feedback. So there is bound to be some changes to exterior as well as mechanicals.

BTW all lights in loco are dual filament bulbs which are used as fail safe measure.
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Old 30th September 2011, 13:07   #27
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Btw, does DLW produce the GM WDG/P/M 4 and above series? I have seen some differences in different locos.
WDM4 ceased to exist in the 1980s. It came in the 1960s. DLW produces WDG4 and WDP4/4B/4D.

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Yes it does and all of them. The initial batch of locos (6 I think) was imported from GM which are more rounded and have better finish. The later ones which are indigenised using parts sourced from Indian vendors and are boxy. Also, all locos undergo constant improvements based on Crew / Mechanics feedback. So there is bound to be some changes to exterior as well as mechanicals.
Er! Its the other way round. The Initial lot of GM-EMD built locos were boxy. The current variants are less boxy, and have a more-rounded appearance. The GM-EMD ones were built entirely of metal, while the current generation gets a FRP-outer shell.

The Initial batch of WDP4s were 10 in number, while the WDG4s were much higher (13 fully built and 8 as Kits). The WDP4 was by far a "failure" - due to its Bo-1-1-Bo arrangement, thereby putting out less traction. The Locos had frequent issues with wheel slips, and many locos were actually out of service due to poor quality. Recently, this anomaly was solved with the introduction of WDP4B, which puts out 4500hp with a Co-Co bogie arrangement (6 traction motors compared to only 4 in the earlier variant).

Plus, I do not agree to the part that "all locos undergo constant improvements based on Crew / Mechanics feedback". If Crew feedback was taken into consideration, the locos would have had better ergonomics - sitting in the loco for hours at a stretch is no joke - especially in the "so-called" advanced cabs. Working Long-hood forward in an EMD loco is a bigger pain - especially during summer seasons.

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Originally Posted by DWind View Post
BTW all lights in loco are dual filament bulbs which are used as fail safe measure.
In Fact, ALL locomotives have dual headlamps - i.e., two independent light units sitting in one bigger unit. Even if one unit fails, the other can allow the loco pilot to reach the nearest relief point.
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Old 30th September 2011, 13:20   #28
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

From what I remember -the fastest train was the TamilNadu express- which used to touch speeds of 140, but after a rather tragic accident a while back, IR reduced the speed to 110. The TTE told me that the Duronto Express travels at an average speed of 90 kmph and that the rails are rated for a maximum of 150kmph in a few sections.

(correct me if I am wrong here) but in a diesel Loco - the diesel engine runs a generator which intrun creates DC power feeding an electric motor. Each wheel is powered by a separate motor thus giving it the necessary pulling capacity and speed control. Converting large capacity diesels for pulling leads to a lot of conversion loss at high speeds and thus diesel engines are mainly used for Shunting in yards as they can create good amount of pulling power but very low top ends (no pun intended) (the little blue things with the wheels connected like a steam engine)
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Old 30th September 2011, 13:26   #29
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

Thanks @binaiks for the wealth of information. Looks like you work for the Railways, right?

While on this matter, I remember asking the top management of SAIL when I started my career as to why the tracks they make at Bhilai are not suitable for trains to go at high speed.

I was surprised when they responded that the same tracks they make are exported to Iran and trains run at 180 kms there, compared to 120 in India (BTW, this was in 1981). They said that the way the tracks were laid in India was the inhibiting factor, and not the quality of the steel tracks.

Any comments on this?

As regards trains on ghat sections, it is not uncommon to see 2 and sometimes 3 electric engines hauling iron ore on the Vizag-Araku ghat section (a.k.a. Kottavalasa Kriandul line). When I asked the station master at Araku Valley, he said the additional engines were deployed to help not in pulling, but on braking. I am not sure if this is correct.

Would love to know the answers to the questions above.
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Old 30th September 2011, 13:49   #30
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Exclamation Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Thanks @binaiks for the wealth of information. Looks like you work for the Railways, right? .
I think he is a well known member in IRFCA. Is that right?

[IRFCA] Members of the IRFCA Community

I have seen his photos and travelogues, they are excellent.

IRFCA is an excellent resource on Indian Railways. I am a member there too, but I am more of a lurker on that forum. Also, one visit daily to the gallery is a must if you are a rail fan.
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