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Old 30th September 2011, 13:58   #31
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Diesel Locomotive Works (Lucknow) was established with the sole purpose of manufacturing diesel locomotives.
DLW is in Varanasi:
Welcome to DLW Official Website
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Old 30th September 2011, 14:40   #32
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by binaiks View Post
The WDP4 was by far a "failure" - due to its Bo-1-1-Bo arrangement, thereby putting out less traction. The Locos had frequent issues with wheel slips, and many locos were actually out of service due to poor quality. Recently, this anomaly was solved with the introduction of WDP4B, which puts out 4500hp with a Co-Co bogie arrangement (6 traction motors compared to only 4 in the earlier variant).
What is this Bo-1-1-Bo arrangement?

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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
Thanks @binaiks for the wealth of information. Looks like you work for the Railways, right?
Apparently, he also works for the bus transport industry as well


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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
As regards trains on ghat sections, it is not uncommon to see 2 and sometimes 3 electric engines hauling iron ore on the Vizag-Araku ghat section (a.k.a. Kottavalasa Kriandul line). When I asked the station master at Araku Valley, he said the additional engines were deployed to help not in pulling, but on braking. I am not sure if this is correct.
Yes, the additional locos are for braking. They are called 'Bankers'. Usually, there are locos at the end of the rake too. I have seen in the Shiradi ghats (between Sakleshpur and Subramanya), there will be upto 3 bankers in the front or rear depending on whether you are climbing up or down the ghats.

Last edited by addyhemmige : 30th September 2011 at 14:42.
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Old 30th September 2011, 22:57   #33
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by madan80 View Post
The TTE told me that the Duronto Express travels at an average speed of 90 kmph and that the rails are rated for a maximum of 150kmph in a few sections.
Creativity at its best. To the best of my knowledge, only one section is cleared for 150kmph - that is between Nizamuddin and Agra Cantt. Clearance for 150kmph comes with a lot of background works - including fencing for the entire stretch (to prevent stray cattle/big animals) and less curves.

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Originally Posted by madan80 View Post
(correct me if I am wrong here) but in a diesel Loco - the diesel engine runs a generator which intrun creates DC power feeding an electric motor. Each wheel is powered by a separate motor thus giving it the necessary pulling capacity and speed control. Converting large capacity diesels for pulling leads to a lot of conversion loss at high speeds and thus diesel engines are mainly used for Shunting in yards as they can create good amount of pulling power but very low top ends (no pun intended) (the little blue things with the wheels connected like a steam engine)
The engine that you are talking about has hydraulic transmission - the one like a steam engine. There is one prime mover, and pistons connect the wheels to the prime mover - this system has a lot of power wastage.

As opposed to this, the Diesel-Electric Locomotives have better power utilisation - they are capable of doing speeds upto 160kmph - but aren't allowed to go that fast due to visibility issues (in the old ALCo design).

Diesel locomotives are preferred worldwide for freight usage - so not very sure if they lose "steam" at higher speeds.

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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
Thanks @binaiks for the wealth of information. Looks like you work for the Railways, right?
I don't work for the Railways, but have been following them from my childhood. Am a poor pharmacist with no connection to the railways or the bus industry - but an avid follower of both.

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Originally Posted by gkrishk View Post
DLW is in Varanasi:
Was a mistake from my part. Was thinking of RDSO, and typed it for DLW. Apologies for the confusion.

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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
What is this Bo-1-1-Bo arrangement?
"BO" stands for two traction motors in a bogie of three axles. "CO" stands for three traction motors in a bogie of three axles".

BO1-1BO means that there is one dead (unpowered) axle in each bogie. The arrangement is "two powered axles and one dead axle" in the first bogie, and then "one dead axle and two powered axles" in the second bogie.


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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
When I asked the station master at Araku Valley, he said the additional engines were deployed to help not in pulling, but on braking. I am not sure if this is correct.
While going uphill, the locomotives at the rear provide a lot of assistance to the lead locomotive. In fact, Ghat working rules mandate that it is the rear locomotive(s) that should apply all the tractive effort, and the lead locomotive should only "help" the rear ones. So, whenever the train starts from a stop, the LPs (Loco Pilots) in the lead loco communicate the information to the LPs in the rear Loco - it is the rear loco that applies traction to get the train moving. The next time you go to a ghat section (preferably one with diesel working) have a look at the working.

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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
Yes, the additional locos are for braking. They are called 'Bankers'.
When additional locos are used for braking, they are called "Breakers" - they are always at the lead of a consist. "Bankers" are always at the rear of a consist.

The reason why Bankers are used is to prevent the rake from rolling back in case the lead loco fails or the rake "breaks" - when the lead loco pulls the rake up a gradient, there is tremendous pressure on the coupling. To prevent coupling fracture, the lead loco applies very little traction while the Bankers do all the job.

In case of a downhill consist, regular locos cannot take up the weight of all the coaches behind, and hence "breakers" are added at the front, who would apply breaks to stop the consist from rolling down.

The best place to see the work of a breaker is the Braganza Ghats - the one between Londa (Castle Rock to be specific) and Kulem, on the Hubli-Goa Route. Its a trekkers paradise - and a rail-spotters heaven.
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Old 1st October 2011, 21:14   #34
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
I think there still exists a turntable near King's Circle or thereabouts. I remember spotting it when travelling from CST to King's Circle by the harbour line. This was almost 12-15 years back.
It is at BAMY (Bandra Marshalling yard) between Bandra and Khar. Here is a photo clicked by a friend.
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Old 2nd October 2011, 00:55   #35
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Arrow Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
Been a Railway's fan for a long time. Been observing the technology upgrade.
BTW one interesting video of EMD locomotives about wheel slip



P.S: I thought there was a 7000 HP WAP7 Locomotive one's that power the Rajdhani's and the Shatabdi's


I guess this has been shot at Donigal ,on route from Mangalore to Bangalore in Sakleshpur ghats
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Old 2nd October 2011, 19:48   #36
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by nbr View Post
I guess this has been shot at Donigal ,on route from Mangalore to Bangalore in Sakleshpur ghats
Nope. This is at Dudhsagar, on the Braganza Ghats (Londa-Madgaon)
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Old 2nd October 2011, 20:15   #37
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by binaiks View Post
Nope. This is at Dudhsagar, on the Braganza Ghats (Londa-Madgaon)
Can someone tell me what is meant my the term 'maximum tractic effort' ? Is it pulling power?
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Old 2nd October 2011, 20:17   #38
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
Can someone tell me what is meant my the term 'maximum tractic effort' ? Is it pulling power?
In simple terms, that is the maximum torque the pilot can apply at the particular point. Tractive effort is restricted in places where there could be severe damage if the pilot applies more than the permitted effort.
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Old 7th October 2011, 02:31   #39
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by rajeshsundaram View Post
Totally stupid wish.. but, wish TBHP reviews this engine too!
Not yet know the specification but can surely predict it:

1. The loco must be 3-phase AC-AC traction i.e. the alternator must produce 3-phase AC which would be converted to DC and again 3-phase AC to feed to 3-phase AC Traction Motors.

2. The intermediated DC-Link may be stepped and not constant (though not sure about this).

3. The diesel engine must be 2-stroke V16 with around 250 litres of displacement.

4. The max. Tractive Effort as mention by GTO is 560 kN with power 5500 BHP. Though earlier version WDG-4 have 540 kN with 4000 BHP. So slight improvement in max TE but more in power.

5. The light weight faricated bogie keeps unsprung mass low, so better ride and handling possible (same reason for using alloy wheels and nitogen in tyres).

6. The power converter and auxiliary converter technology must be IGBT based.

7. The diesel engines by their inherent nature of being bulky (less power to weight ratio) and having well distributed axle load have high adhesion. Expect around 0.49 to 0.55.

8. The control circuit must be one of the most complex feature to make driver's interface like playing video game for real. Though I doubt that they would have standarized it as per latest IEEE Standards.

9. Crew friendly features will be a welcome feature by IR. Kudos to them.

10. Still not sure about the significance of crach worthiness for a locomotive weighing around 130 tonnes or so though it already exists in passenger coaches. It will tested on terms whether in case of collision, is it able to protect the damage to equipments as alternator, transformer, converter or so because the driver is anyways safe in 130 tonnes vault!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
Been a Railway's fan for a long time. Been observing the technology upgrade.

P.S: I thought there was a 7000 HP WAP7 Locomotive one's that power the Rajdhani's and the Shatabdi's
Rajdhani and Shatabdi are mostly powered by WAP-5 (5000 HP) and WAP-7 (6000 HP) Electric-Locomotives in IR

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
Are the tubes supplying sawdust into the wheels to increase friction?

For all those who need some dose of power, here you go:

The World's Strongest Electric Train, With 10,500HP of RAWR

And regarding aerodynamics, it is ineffective for any speed below 200kmph! As long as you can have enough thrust(speed), you even make a rhino fly(aerodynamic lift)!! And in this case it is better to have more downforce and aerodynamic braking in terms of heavy haulage rather than high aerodynamics. This makes sense only for high speed light weight passenger trains not for cargo movers. By what name that is holy, is aerodynamics here below in this 10500 power monster?
Dry Sand with a particular specification (not remebered) is used for friction and not saw-dust.

For those who need power, IR under PSU called DFCCIL is soon going to draft specification for 12000 HP Electric-Locomotive with twin Bo-Bo design.

Air resistance is directly proportional to the square of velocity and over IR the average speed of Goods train is assumed to be 20-30 km/hr with max. 100 km/hr for Stainless Steel wagons (which are very less in no.) so mostly run at max. 75 km/hr. So even 12000 HP loco will never be aerodynamic.

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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
While on this matter, I remember asking the top management of SAIL when I started my career as to why the tracks they make at Bhilai are not suitable for trains to go at high speed.

I was surprised when they responded that the same tracks they make are exported to Iran and trains run at 180 kms there, compared to 120 in India (BTW, this was in 1981). They said that the way the tracks were laid in India was the inhibiting factor, and not the quality of the steel tracks.

Any comments on this?
The speed of a train depends on following:

1. Max. speed of locomotive currently 160 km/hr. in IR

2. Max. speed of load i.e. coaches/wagons, 160 km/hr.

3. Max. speed for which track is fit. 200 km/hr.

4. Over head equipments i.e. electric wire transmission system fit for 170 km/hr.

5. Whether the track is shielded/protected from outside disturbances like animals, humans, natural calamities etc. MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR for India.

6. Curves and gradients. So for diverse country like India very high speed can only be attained at specific regions and not pan-india.

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Originally Posted by binaiks View Post
Diesel locomotives are preferred worldwide for freight usage - so not very sure if they lose "steam" at higher speeds.
Diesel Engines are preferred for freight because you don't have to lay down electric wire transmission system and countries like US have LARGE reservoir of crude.
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Old 7th October 2011, 09:48   #40
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

That is very well compiled summary.
Glad to read it. Some notes/comments from my side:

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Originally Posted by asaraf View Post
Not yet know the specification but can surely predict it:

1. The loco must be 3-phase AC-AC traction i.e. the alternator must produce 3-phase AC which would be converted to DC and again 3-phase AC to feed to 3-phase AC Traction Motors.

2. The intermediated DC-Link may be stepped and not constant (though not sure about this).
Its very nice to see things evolving from the old DC traction + Ward Leonard controls to
the more efficient 3-Phase AC traction.
I did not get the point why would we need a DS conversion if the DG should be capable to generate 3-Phase and directly feed the AC traction system.

Quote:
3. The diesel engine must be 2-stroke V16 with around 250 litres of displacement.

4. The max. Tractive Effort as mention by GTO is 560 kN with power 5500 BHP. Though earlier version WDG-4 have 540 kN with 4000 BHP. So slight improvement in max TE but more in power.

5. The light weight faricated bogie keeps unsprung mass low, so better ride and handling possible (same reason for using alloy wheels and nitogen in tyres).
Do we have a test bed where locos run in India? How do they simulate run-test scenario under real conditions? Shunting empty rakes?

Quote:
6. The power converter and auxiliary converter technology must be IGBT based.

7. The diesel engines by their inherent nature of being bulky (less power to weight ratio) and having well distributed axle load have high adhesion. Expect around 0.49 to 0.55.

8. The control circuit must be one of the most complex feature to make driver's interface like playing video game for real. Though I doubt that they would have standarized it as per latest IEEE Standards.

9. Crew friendly features will be a welcome feature by IR. Kudos to them.
- Yes definitely IGBT. I think that is the most efficient power electronic device till date.
- Can be switched much faster than the traditional thyristor.
- Even I wonder what all protections and protective circuits are embedded into that control system. A first order summary would be very nice.
- The other thing is the regenerative braking system. How efficiently its utilized ? (In other words how dynamic it is? Rheostatic versus regenerative)
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Old 7th October 2011, 23:45   #41
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
That is very well compiled summary.
Glad to read it. Some notes/comments from my side:

I did not get the point why would we need a DS conversion if the DG should be capable to generate 3-Phase and directly feed the AC traction system.

Do we have a test bed where locos run in India? How do they simulate run-test scenario under real conditions? Shunting empty rakes?

- Even I wonder what all protections and protective circuits are embedded into that control system. A first order summary would be very nice.

- The other thing is the regenerative braking system. How efficiently its utilized ? (In other words how dynamic it is? Rheostatic versus regenerative)
Thanks for appreciation.

Please remember that AC Traction Motors are VVVF (Variable Voltage and Variable Frequency) controlled which could only be possible with an intermediate DC-Link.

As such we do not have specifically made test beds for locomotive trials, but there are some critical sections in IR over which a particular level of performance is desired by locomotives. Also every locomotive manufacturing company has their own simulators which they first customize according to the fields conditions of their customer and then simulate loco behaviour.

Protection Circuits:
1. Earth fault in Power, Auxiliary and Control circuit.
2. Over current in Power and Aux. with MCBs/Fuses.
3. Over voltage in Power Ckt.
4. No/Under voltage in some specific circuits.
5. Only over current in power ckt. is relay based.
6. MCBs are flux based and NOT thermal.
7. Rest all are achieved through software with inputs from sensors (such as current, voltage, pressure, temperature etc)

The complexity of control circuit can be imagined by the fact that there must be at least 20 nos. 32-bit microprocessors (Intel 80x86 falimy) running a real-time OS with full redundancy and distributed computing controlling the behvaiour of locomotive by always calculating & converging the maximum efficiency point of every machinery on it with latency in micro-seconds.

Regenerative Breaking is very obvious with intermediate DC-Link. Efficient enough to bring a fully loaded train running with max. velocity to standstill. Max regenarative force must be around -250 to -300 kN.
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Old 8th October 2011, 10:31   #42
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by asaraf View Post
Thanks for appreciation.

Please remember that AC Traction Motors are VVVF (Variable Voltage and Variable Frequency) controlled which could only be possible with an intermediate DC-Link.
Thanks I forgot the fact that even Diesel locomotive runs of AC traction, and we need an
inverter to generate polyphase for the the AC drive! (Hence the need for DC conversion)

All those protection circuits you mentioned reminded of the protective relaying class and the text book by Russel C Mason!

I think I should go back to Fitzerald and Kingsley!
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Old 8th October 2011, 11:48   #43
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

I could not understand why we need all this AC-DC conversion. Its a diesel engine, so it should run like other diesel engines (in cars etc) with clutch-gear concept.
What is achieved by converting things to DC then to AC then to 3-phase etc? Why can't you simply start the engine, slot a gear and vrooom..?

Pardon the newbie question!
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Old 8th October 2011, 12:05   #44
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by sen2009 View Post
I could not understand why we need all this AC-DC conversion. Its a diesel engine, so it should run like other diesel engines (in cars etc) with clutch-gear concept.
What is achieved by converting things to DC then to AC then to 3-phase etc? Why can't you simply start the engine, slot a gear and vrooom..?
I am no expert in this, but this is done perhaps to improve efficiency. The ones having clutch-gear stuff (the hydraulic ones) are poor on efficiency - may be thats the reason.

Ashok Leyland had showcased a bus on similar concepts - the Hybus. The bus had a CNG run generator which powers the motors that ultimately run the bus.
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Old 8th October 2011, 12:36   #45
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by sen2009 View Post
I could not understand why we need all this AC-DC conversion. Its a diesel engine, so it should run like other diesel engines (in cars etc) with clutch-gear concept.
What is achieved by converting things to DC then to AC then to 3-phase etc? Why can't you simply start the engine, slot a gear and vrooom..?

Pardon the newbie question!
- Recent locomotives (diesel or electric) use AC traction system (Polyphase AC drive systems)
- AC traction control is performed by control of frequency, phase and voltage, which is possible if you have control over the supply.
Now one cannot manipulate the 25KV AC line on an electric locomotive. So they convert it to DC and reconvert it back to AC which is de-coupled and also controllable.

- For Diesel engines, you generate a 3Phase from the primary diesel generator. This is again converted to DC and inverted it back to polyphase AC.
This polyphase AC you can manipulate, without changing the basic parameters of the diesel generator of diesel loco. (Just as the case in electric locomotives).

Last edited by ampere : 8th October 2011 at 12:43.
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