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Old 13th October 2011, 13:15   #61
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Red face Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
Theoretically if you ask, the diesel generators always keep running.
So 3-Phase supply is always available for the AC traction drive system.

Its just a question of engaging the series traction (first in line due to its capability to deliver a high starting toque)

But what is the sequence to start from a locomotive operation point of view, you need to look at IRFCA.

I did not understand your reference to the battery part. If you are equating it to a diesel automobile like thing, where we start from battery, then that comparison is not correct.
For the diesel gens to run there will be some sound from the engine but I live next to the yard where the diesel electrics when parked at night are dead silent , I can see them from my bedroom window. So my question was how are these enignes started .And yes I know the diff between diesel electric engine and a regular diesel engine.
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Old 13th October 2011, 13:24   #62
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by anky View Post
For the diesel gens to run there will be some sound from the engine but I live next to the yard where the diesel electrics when parked at night are dead silent , I can see them from my bedroom window. So my question was how are these enignes started .And yes I know the diff between diesel electric engine and a regular diesel engine.
At night I think they stop the generator as well. I also used to wonder looking at those
idle shunting engines, why are they running those generators all the times when engine is not doing anything?

I think it takes some to start the generator (No idea about it though).
This is then followed by the regular tuning of the alternator.

This should be followed by traction system sequence of commands
(I can only think here. I have no concrete idea).

This is one link I found:

[IRFCA] Starting a WDM-2 diesel locomotive
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Old 13th October 2011, 13:47   #63
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
I think it takes some to start the generator (No idea about it though).
This is then followed by the regular tuning of the alternator.

This should be followed by traction system sequence of commands
(I can only think here. I have no concrete idea).
As I had written previously, if the prime mover is shut down for quite some time, it takes time and effort to bring it back to the ready-to-go state. I believe that the Alco's were/are tougher than the EMD's in this case. If the engine is cool, it has to be primed before it can be started.
The control commands are issued to the TCC (traction control computer) from where it controls the various systems.
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Old 26th April 2012, 22:52   #64
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

I have seen Teesta Torsa express rack in one of the loop lines in New Alipurdaur Station. One is the train Teesta Torsa express from New Alipurdaur to Sealdah. The other one is last Bogie, which wheels are supported with couple of stoppers, like the stones wee keep for the car.
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Old 27th April 2012, 12:03   #65
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by navan49 View Post
I have seen Teesta Torsa express rack in one of the loop lines in New Alipurdaur Station. One is the train Teesta Torsa express from New Alipurdaur to Sealdah. The other one is last Bogie, which wheels are supported with couple of stoppers, like the stones wee keep for the car.
Its a "rake" not a "rack". It is mandatory that the rakes be "protected" using stoppers and chains when the rake is stabled, especially only a loop line at a station. The stoppers and chains would prevent the rake from - (i) rolling away in case of a brake failure, (ii) being accidentally shunted without permission.

The process of stabling was detailed on my blog a few years ago. AFAIK, the T-BHP rules do not let me provide a link to my site. Those interested can reach the page by googling for "platform7 rake stabling". The first result would direct you to the page.
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Old 28th April 2012, 03:37   #66
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

The WDG5 is all set for Road Test.

Inside pictures from DLW Varanasi available on IRFCA Uploads.

Google 'irfca gallery' and in the first link, open and choose 'Open line'.

(Not sure if I can post the direct link here)

Again, a new loco being fully designed by DLW does not have a dual cab. That again can be due to the reason that most of the time freight loco's are paired and will end up having the cabs on either ends.

Also for the first time on a production loco, a toilet is included as well as a AC cab which has been fitted on and off on previous loco's.
Driver feedback taken into consideration here.
Has Koni springs
Also has a full digital dashboard.
A good leap for DLW for an indigenised loco.

Last edited by tharian : 28th April 2012 at 03:56. Reason: added a line
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Old 3rd May 2012, 20:33   #67
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
At night I think they stop the generator as well. I also used to wonder looking at those
idle shunting engines, why are they running those generators all the times when engine is not doing anything?
Right. The generators also should be shut down when the loco is not to be used for a longer period of time.
I heard below from an engine driver:
Shutting down an engine requires administrative approval (even for electric engines!), from the level of station master. So, the engines / generators are left idling till they they reach a break even to bear the this admin overhead.
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Old 5th January 2015, 08:13   #68
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

Question on AC vs DC machines used in locomotives:

Since when the change happened from DC machines to Polyphase AC? Is it only for the thread in question that we have a polyphase AC machine with VVVF controls?

I had a chance to speak to a loco-pilot of a superfast recently. He mentioned even now most Diesel (as well as Electric locomotives) run on DC machines. (Series-Parallel-Shunt combo being used) The pilot though was not aware as to which loco had shifted to AC traction. So is WDG5 the first loco with polyphase AC? How about for electric locos? WAP7 being the first? Or it was introduced earlier?
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Old 5th January 2015, 08:26   #69
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ampere View Post
Question on AC vs DC machines used in locomotives:

Since when the change happened from DC machines to Polyphase AC? Is it only for the thread in question that we have a polyphase AC machine with VVVF controls?

I had a chance to speak to a loco-pilot of a superfast recently. He mentioned even now most Diesel (as well as Electric locomotives) run on DC machines. (Series-Parallel-Shunt combo being used) The pilot though was not aware as to which loco had shifted to AC traction. So is WDG5 the first loco with polyphase AC? How about for electric locos? WAP7 being the first? Or it was introduced earlier?
The WDG 4 and WDP 4 were the first triphasic AC locos running on 2 stroke diesel power. The initial locos were imported from GM and later on production started at DLW, Varanasi.

WAP 5 and WAG 9 were the first electric triphasic locos and were imported from ABB Switzerland. WAP 5 has Bo-Bo arrangement while WAG 9 has Co-Co arrangement. WAP 7 was produced locally by altering the gearing ratio of WAG 9 to suit passenger operations.

All these changes have happened in early 2000's. If you're more interested in details, log on to http://www.irfca.org

Electric Locos -- http://www.irfca.org/faq/faq-loco2e.html

Diesel locos -- http://www.irfca.org/faq/faq-loco2d.html

Last edited by BoneCollector : 5th January 2015 at 08:31.
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Old 5th January 2015, 08:38   #70
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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The WDG 4 and WDP 4 were the first triphasic AC locos running on 2 stroke diesel power. The initial locos were imported from GM and later on production started at DLW, Varanasi.
Thanks for the links and the info. I do follow IRFCA but not as avidly as here. Hence was was expecting a pointer which I could follow-up!

The general thought was poly-phase AC machines have much better speed control and are much more efficient compared to power loses in DC machines. Though the DC shunt machines have simpler speed control mechanisms.

But with advances in power electronics and availability of superior/efficient power electronic devices, I thought the shift to AC machines should have happened quite earlier. But the loco pilot's response threw me a off a bit. (Esp since he was commanding the super-fast Karnataka express).

Thanks Again.
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Old 5th January 2015, 10:02   #71
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

Sorry to be a party spoiler. Is this also a 'Vernier Caliper' copy of some foreign loco, if so which? It is well known that at one time the then latest loco was a ditto clone of the GE Loco!
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Old 5th January 2015, 11:13   #72
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Sorry to be a party spoiler. Is this also a 'Vernier Caliper' copy of some foreign loco, if so which? It is well known that at one time the then latest loco was a ditto clone of the GE Loco!
Our 'Old' Locos (WDG/P/M 2 series) are versions of the ALCO which was made under licence initially and then we got the rights to it. Though the basic loco remained the same, DLW Varanasi and others in India, made significant changes including the engines, bogeys, traction control, etc.

Our newer Locos (the WDG/P/M 4/5 series) are licensed versions of the GE EMD locos. We are now doing tech transfer of these locos. Already we have made some improvements (like dual cab) for Indian conditions.

We have never 'cloned' locos without licence (unlike our northern neighbors).

In fact the most common electric loco in India the WAP/G/M 4 is an Indian designed and made BHEL loco.

Last edited by torquecurve : 5th January 2015 at 11:23.
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Old 5th January 2015, 23:48   #73
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
The general thought was poly-phase AC machines have much better speed control and are much more efficient compared to power loses in DC machines. Though the DC shunt machines have simpler speed control mechanisms.

But with advances in power electronics and availability of superior/efficient power electronic devices, I thought the shift to AC machines should have happened quite earlier. But the loco pilot's response threw me a off a bit. (Esp since he was commanding the super-fast Karnataka express).

Thanks Again.
Though the AC locos were introduced sometime back, its natural for the LP of the Karnataka express to not have idea since this train gets the conventional DC motor ALCO locos. Hence he may have not been trained or informed well about the AC locos.

Since to the best of my knowledge, ALCOs are no longer in production and the diesel loco works is busy dishing out AC locos, they might become a rarity in sometime.
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Old 6th January 2015, 07:39   #74
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Since to the best of my knowledge, ALCOs are no longer in production and the diesel loco works is busy dishing out AC locos, they might become a rarity in sometime.
The WDM3D and WDM3F (3F limited in production. Seem to be test mules) is very much an Alco based design. The 3D is a current production locomotive. With the flexibility of the WDM3D and with freight mostly running behind the EMD club, it does look like WDG3A/Shakti class locomotive is no longer in production.

The new kid on the block is the WDM2G. Homed at Itarsi. Has three independent genset engines that fire up based on load requirement.
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Old 6th January 2015, 08:07   #75
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Though the AC locos were introduced sometime back, its natural for the LP of the Karnataka express to not have idea since this train gets the conventional DC motor ALCO locos. Hence he may have not been trained or informed well about the AC locos.
Looks like the numbers of these DC machine based locos are so high, that its not easy to phase them out soon. Also the KA section of KK express runs of diesel engine (WDM3/WDM2). So even I expected him to not know.

The other fact remains it will take time to phase these locos out because, once the loco out on the field, its not easy to de-commission it from service.

But would love to see these SCIG (Squirrel Cage Induction Motor) based AC drives being thrust into large scale services sooner. Railways is the best example of how Drives and Power Electronics are put to large scale deployment.
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