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Old 7th January 2015, 20:53   #91
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
Out of curiosity, who gets to decide which shed's locos are to haul a particular train? Going by the current discussion on the Karnataka Express, logically, it should be hauled by KJM locos since itself is at the origin of the train, right? If the loco class was changed for this train and the loco was unavailable at the shed located at the origin of the train, it would make sense.

I mean, for example, if a WDP4B was to haul the Karnataka express, I guess it would have made sense to allot from ET shed or anywhere else (KJM doesn't house WDP4Bs, right?). So, what is the point in getting the WDM3A twins from MLY when KJM has its own WDM3As?
I have the same question as to who decides the loco for a train.
WDP4b are present with KJM and used extensively on Udyan, Kurla Cbe express and few others.

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
In my opinion, I don't think loco allocation is something to do with origin and destination of the train. Of course, its so for regional trains. But for such long distance trains, I think its more to do with ensuring good loco utilization and ensure that the loco links are practical as well as fail safe. A look into the loco link of these MLY twins can throw more light on why the said loco is used.
KJM may have a higher loco failure rate as I have often seen long distance expresses returning few hours late hauled by another loco with the dead loco behind. And rarely have seen ED and MLY coming in dead.
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Old 8th January 2015, 09:23   #92
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
KJM doesn't house WDP4Bs, right?
They do. KJM also happens to be the only shed that upgraded WDP4's from 4 traction motors to 6 though classification of the locomotive remains the same.
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Old 8th January 2015, 10:13   #93
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
A look into the loco link of these MLY twins can throw more light on why the said loco is used.
The MLY twin links for the Karnataka exp are shared with Ajanta Exp which runs from Secunderabad to Manmad.
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Old 8th January 2015, 12:25   #94
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by tharian View Post
I have the same question as to who decides the loco for a train.
WDP4b are present with KJM and used extensively on Udyan, Kurla Cbe express and few others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
They do. KJM also happens to be the only shed that upgraded WDP4's from 4 traction motors to 6 though classification of the locomotive remains the same.
Don't know why, but somehow I was always under the impression that KJM had only WDG4s and other Alcos. Thanks for clarifying that.

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
In my opinion, I don't think loco allocation is something to do with origin and destination of the train. Of course, its so for regional trains. But for such long distance trains, I think its more to do with ensuring good loco utilization and ensure that the loco links are practical as well as fail safe. A look into the loco link of these MLY twins can throw more light on why the said loco is used.
Thanks for clarifying. Another doubt, Since SWR 'owns/runs' the Karnataka Express, do they decide which shed's locos they use for its journey. There are Guntakal and Gooty sheds which fall on the Karnataka Express' route, so why use locos from another shed? MLY is located way off this route.

In another example, I have seen plenty of Gooty shed locos in duty at the Braganza ghats. How come Gooty locos are stationed this far from its home shed? UBL which is quite near, would have been more feasible.

I'm just trying to understand the allocation of locos, so please bear with my questions
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Old 8th January 2015, 14:02   #95
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
Don't know why, but somehow I was always under the impression that KJM had only WDG4s and other Alcos.
It is actually the other way round. KJM got WDP4 in abundance and was very late to get WDG4 locomotives. DG4 arrived as late as last year for KJM.

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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
I'm just trying to understand the allocation of locos, so please bear with my questions
Some of this is clearly the result of politics at play. In most cases, its about keeping the locomotive running with a train as much as possible. In the case of the Karnataka express which used to be behind Itarsi diesels, the extension of electric traction up to Manmad (Was up to Itarsi previously) added a good 500km of distance that the train can run behind a electric locomotive. Now for Itarsi, they will have to find a way to ferry back their diesel locomotive (running under wires) for those 500km had they continued with the link. It is possible that no train required a diesel link anymore now that Itarsi-Manmad is energized. It probably made more sense for them to stop the link and hand it over the MLY, etc. Its all down to the links mostly.

Sheds value prestigious links and rarely give it up. It must have been a big blow for Itarsi to loose the link for Karnataka.

Gooty has ruled the briganza section for years so this could be a political hold. Besides; the shed is probably trying to save itself from being closed as the region around GY is now under wires. There are various factors at play. Freight in Briganza is a mix of UBL and GY. Oddly, GY ends up getting test mule locomotives from DLW, Varanasi. The first WDM3F was with them. They got a WDP4D before UBL and KJM did!
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Old 8th January 2015, 14:09   #96
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Its all down to the links mostly.
Dont know about these aspects, but have traveled across the country along the "famed" links. And that too across the length of time. Have witnessed these electrifications happen slowly and steadly. Its been a pleasure. It used to be fun watching the classic double diesels hauling GT, TN, AP, and KK and KL. Never saw a double diesel on the Delhi Bombay and Delhi-Howrah sectors. It was mainly the south bound superfasts. (I may be wrong though). The other one I think was Coramandel on the Madras-Howrah sector.

Last edited by ampere : 8th January 2015 at 14:12.
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Old 8th January 2015, 14:27   #97
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
Never saw a double diesel on the Delhi Bombay and Delhi-Howrah sectors.
These are two sectors electric traction was prioritized as the traffic was the highest. The south was slow to adopt or be considered. SR took it up in the Chennai region but that was it. It took years for the remaining region of SR to get covered. I clearly remember how long it took to electrify Jolarpet Bangalore. This section was among the last to get wired. Remember Brindavan, Chennai Mail behind twin diesels? Its a little different now. SR has taken up electrification on a priority and the region is almost fully covered.
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Old 8th January 2015, 15:46   #98
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Gooty has ruled the briganza section for years so this could be a political hold. Besides; the shed is probably trying to save itself from being closed as the region around GY is now under wires. There are various factors at play. Freight in Briganza is a mix of UBL and GY. Oddly, GY ends up getting test mule locomotives from DLW, Varanasi. The first WDM3F was with them. They got a WDP4D before UBL and KJM did!
Could be true, since the Braganza ghat region was under SCR before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
The south was slow to adopt or be considered. SR took it up in the Chennai region but that was it. It took years for the remaining region of SR to get covered. I clearly remember how long it took to electrify Jolarpet Bangalore. This section was among the last to get wired. Remember Brindavan, Chennai Mail behind twin diesels? Its a little different now. SR has taken up electrification on a priority and the region is almost fully covered.
SWR seems to be lagging behind in electrification compared to all other zones (KR apart) in the country. Apart from the Bangalore city region, no other city under SWR has been electrified. Has SBC-MYS line been earmarked for electrification along with track doubling?
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Old 9th January 2015, 10:10   #99
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
Has SBC-MYS line been earmarked for electrification along with track doubling?
Yes and its taking its own sweet time. The reason for SWR to go easy on electric traction is low traffic. It is just not enough to justify it. The movement around the region is also minimal. Its evident in Bangalore itself. The peak is mostly the morning and evening. Movement during daytime is very low. A train every half an hour (sometimes longer) at the most.
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Old 9th January 2015, 14:45   #100
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
Dont know about these aspects, but have traveled across the country along the "famed" links. And that too across the length of time. Have witnessed these electrifications happen slowly and steadly. Its been a pleasure. It used to be fun watching the classic double diesels hauling GT, TN, AP, and KK and KL. Never saw a double diesel on the Delhi Bombay and Delhi-Howrah sectors. It was mainly the south bound superfasts. (I may be wrong though). The other one I think was Coramandel on the Madras-Howrah sector.
How true. Those were the days when these KK, AP, TN, GT, KL twin WDM2s used to overtake our slow train. And one cannot beat the double headed Mumbai Rajdhani. The sound of twin alco's screaming is reason enough. Gives me the same feeling as a racecar exhaust would give to a car fanboy.

I would still prefer a Twin Alco over a WAP5 or WAP7.
The newer GMs are much more powerful, efficient and reliable than Alcos, but lack the character and spirit of a thrashing, smoking Alco.
I rue the day when Alcos would be pulled out of service eventually over the next decade or so i guess.
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Old 14th January 2015, 22:52   #101
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by VineetG View Post
How true. Those were the days when these KK, AP, TN, GT, KL twin WDM2s used to overtake our slow train. And one cannot beat the double headed Mumbai Rajdhani. The sound of twin alco's screaming is reason enough. Gives me the same feeling as a racecar exhaust would give to a car fanboy.
How can I not agree. Think of being inside a tunnel in the braganza ghats, when two banking Alcos push a rake up the ghats. It was the moment of my life that! Did not get the same feeling with five WDG4s That is a different sound altogether.
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Old 15th May 2015, 13:09   #102
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post

P.S: I thought there was a 7000 HP WAP7 Locomotive one's that power the Rajdhani's and the Shatabdi's
The WAP-7 loco is rated 6300 hp and is mostly used for hauling premium trains like the Rajdhani which are of medium load and require to attain high speeds (superior acceleration) quickly after stoppages.

Even the WAP-5 locos (Technology imported from ABB, Swiss) are used to haul high speed trains with light to medium loading. For Ex. The New Delhi - Bhopal Shatabdi that attains a speed of 150 kmph in some stretches between New Delhi and Agra during its run..

The other category of trains that the P-7s are used to haul are the trains which run in ghat sections. This is because the P-5 and the P-7 locos have regenerative capacity and in down gradients their traction motors act like generators and give the power back to the OHE (Over-head equipment) thereby saving enormous power.
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Old 15th May 2015, 13:31   #103
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by WAM-4 View Post
The WAP-7 loco is rated 6300 hp and is mostly used for hauling premium trains like the Rajdhani which are of medium load and require to attain high speeds (superior acceleration) quickly after stoppages.

Even the WAP-5 locos (Technology imported from ABB, Swiss) are used to haul high speed trains with light to medium loading. For Ex. The New Delhi - Bhopal Shatabdi that attains a speed of 150 kmph in some stretches between New Delhi and Agra during its run..

The other category of trains that the P-7s are used to haul are the trains which run in ghat sections. This is because the P-5 and the P-7 locos have regenerative capacity and in down gradients their traction motors act like generators and give the power back to the OHE (Over-head equipment) thereby saving enormous power.
I partially agree with you. Agreed that P5/P7 were designed for medium loads and high speeds, but certainly not designed for the ghats.

P-7s are also generally found hauling passanger trains and slow expresses with higher number of stoppages. this is done primarily to attain quicker section clearances. Let's take an example.

The Mumbai - Firozpur Janta express which runs via, BCT-BRC-NDLS-FZP route (primarily the WR route) has exactly 94 stops from BCT to FZP. Now consider that each station the train stops for a few minutes again joins the main line, accelerates for a distance and again stops at the next station. This all loads the section thus delaying the following trains. A faster acceleration in this stop - go - stop scenario will certainly help the train clear the section faster.

This is one major reason we find P7s allocated to passangers and slow expresses apart from their faster cousins.

Last edited by Dieseltuned : 15th May 2015 at 13:32. Reason: edited the last line
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Old 30th October 2017, 10:30   #104
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Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
Out of curiosity, who gets to decide which shed's locos are to haul a particular train? Going by the current discussion on the Karnataka Express, logically, it should be hauled by KJM locos since itself is at the origin of the train, right? If the loco class was changed for this train and the loco was unavailable at the shed located at the origin of the train, it would make sense.

I mean, for example, if a WDP4B was to haul the Karnataka express, I guess it would have made sense to allot from ET shed or anywhere else (KJM doesn't house WDP4Bs, right?). So, what is the point in getting the WDM3A twins from MLY when KJM has its own WDM3As?
The loco allocation is decided by Railway Board I think. These days, KK gets a PUNE WDP 4D from Daund to Bengaluru, although on 29/10/2017, it did get a Kazipet Alco Pair. The shed change happened after KK started getting E locos till Daund and shares loco with Udyan from Bangalore to Daund. Udyan is also with a KYN WCAM 2P/3 from CSMT to Daund.

CRS inspection has been completed for doubling from Bangalore to Pandavapura and Mysuru to Naganahalli. The Tipu monument at Srirangapatnam was a roadblock(or should it be railblock), but it has been shifted now and CRS inspection is remaining for Pandavapura Naganahalli stretch.

Electrification is done till Settihalli, and wires have come up at Mysuru. There are 3 MEMU services a day in each direction from Bengaluru to Ramanagaram

With regards to the WDG 5 loco, 5 were built with road numbers 50001 and 2 allotted to Sabarmati shed(WR) and 50003,4,&5 to Gooty(SCR). 50006 is being used as spares and 50001 Bheem and 50005 are under repairs

With the new policy of 100% electrification, it is the end of the road for the WDG 5 class and will go down in IR annals as a failed loco class along with WAG 6, WDM 7, WDM 6, WAP 6 loco classes

Last edited by GTO : 31st October 2017 at 09:40. Reason: Removing broken quote
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:19   #105
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Default Re: Indian Railway’s new WDG5 Locomotive, supported by Electro-Motive Diesel

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Originally Posted by tharian View Post
I have the same question as to who decides the loco for a train.
WDP4b are present with KJM and used extensively on Udyan, Kurla Cbe express and few others.

KJM may have a higher loco failure rate as I have often seen long distance expresses returning few hours late hauled by another loco with the dead loco behind. And rarely have seen ED and MLY coming in dead.
Let me put in my two cents. Other members may correct me if I'm wrong.

Trains get locomotives based on a need to move the locomotives to other locations. This is worked out between the railway divisions that offer a terminus /traction changeover point for that particular train. Using such locomotives to haul a train may be more efficient in the long run. For e.g - Karnataka Exp used to get the ET Twins all the way from Manmad to SBC. One reason could be the fact that it ran a lot of its journey on CR territory. Gooty or Guntakal, being SCR territory was never a traction changeover point/terminus and hence its locos were never used. Agreed KJM WDM3A twins couldve been used, but I feel it was Itarsi (ET) twins simply because the route of the train passes through Itarsi (traction changeover/crew change point), the loco's home shed, allowing the loco to conveniently be brought back there for maintenance.

As far as I know, KJM locos have a lower failure rate compared to its counterparts. Its locos do duty far and wide in the southern states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
The MLY twin links for the Karnataka exp are shared with Ajanta Exp which runs from Secunderabad to Manmad.
That might've been a on-off case, but on my journeys till a couple of years ago, it was always the ET twins that did the duty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
It is actually the other way round. KJM got WDP4 in abundance and was very late to get WDG4 locomotives. DG4 arrived as late as last year for KJM.

Some of this is clearly the result of politics at play. In most cases, its about keeping the locomotive running with a train as much as possible. In the case of the Karnataka express which used to be behind Itarsi diesels, the extension of electric traction up to Manmad (Was up to Itarsi previously) added a good 500km of distance that the train can run behind a electric locomotive. Now for Itarsi, they will have to find a way to ferry back their diesel locomotive (running under wires) for those 500km had they continued with the link. It is possible that no train required a diesel link anymore now that Itarsi-Manmad is energized. It probably made more sense for them to stop the link and hand it over the MLY, etc. Its all down to the links mostly.

Sheds value prestigious links and rarely give it up. It must have been a big blow for Itarsi to loose the link for Karnataka.

Gooty has ruled the briganza section for years so this could be a political hold. Besides; the shed is probably trying to save itself from being closed as the region around GY is now under wires. There are various factors at play. Freight in Briganza is a mix of UBL and GY. Oddly, GY ends up getting test mule locomotives from DLW, Varanasi. The first WDM3F was with them. They got a WDP4D before UBL and KJM did!
Most of the DG4's in SWR are allocated to UBL (Hubli) shed. DP4's are homed at KJM. Don't know why, but thats seems to be the case.

GY runs on Braganza because it was under SCR territory before being moved to SWR in 2003.


Quote:
Originally Posted by addyhemmige View Post
Could be true, since the Braganza ghat region was under SCR before.

SWR seems to be lagging behind in electrification compared to all other zones (KR apart) in the country. Apart from the Bangalore city region, no other city under SWR has been electrified. Has SBC-MYS line been earmarked for electrification along with track doubling?
Perfectly summarised, totally agree with you here. Sheds don't like giving up their prestigious links. As far as Itarsi giving up its link, it was bound to happen anyways. Now that the only sector left for electrification on Karnataka Exp's entire link would be GR-SUR-DD. This 300km sector is in the process of being doubled and electrified. After which I think it would get LGD P4 or P7 for its entire run from SBC to NDLS.

Gotta blame the government for not actively putting its demands infront of the Central Government. SBC-MYS link work is going on b/w Srirangapatna and Mysuru. Sub-stations are being worked upon for energizing this route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Yes and its taking its own sweet time. The reason for SWR to go easy on electric traction is low traffic. It is just not enough to justify it. The movement around the region is also minimal. Its evident in Bangalore itself. The peak is mostly the morning and evening. Movement during daytime is very low. A train every half an hour (sometimes longer) at the most.
This is simply because our railway infrastructure happens to be extremely poor. Single line, no electrification, rail routes being longer than road routes which drastically increases journey time. For e.g- I mean UBL-BGM is routed via Londa and Alnavar which makes it 40 kms more than the road route. For e.g- Journey times via road from SBC to UBL would be 6.5 hours via a Volvo, but the fastest train between the two stations happens to be 12079 Jan Shatabdi and that takes 7.5 hours. Express trains take 8 hours or more. Also most of the places in Karnataka aren't connected by rail. People naturally prefer to take buses.
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