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Old 18th November 2013, 12:19   #226
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by mpksuhas View Post
^ My first thought on seeing that news was, where did that huge piece of metal fall? Delhi - Bangalore flight would be passing over land for the entire duration, good that it did not fall on someones head.
I found this quite funny, because its part of the joke riddle combo.

First you tell the joke
A guy married a washing machine, and bought her a ticket. He took the washing machine to the flight and put it in the seat. However the seatbelt would not fit.
As the plane took off, the crew decided that its hazard to the passengers, and has to go into Cargo Hold. The guy obviously refused to let go of his wife. Struggle happened, and they threw the washing machine out of the window. Hence the guy became a widower on his honeymoon.

....

Then you pause talk about something else as others abuse you for telling a not joke
...
Then you ask a riddle.

A guy walking on the street dies. Just dies. Why?

They scratch their heads.
...

Answer : The washing machine fell on his head.
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Old 18th November 2013, 12:29   #227
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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I found this quite funny, because its part of the joke riddle combo.
OT: Ahh, takes me back to B.E years. . Guess you picked from REC CLT ?

Well, back to the topic. It was later reported (also on this thread) that the missing metal sheet was found inside Bangalore Airport compound itself.
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Old 18th November 2013, 12:35   #228
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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OT: Ahh, takes me back to B.E years. . Guess you picked from REC CLT ?

Well, back to the topic. It was later reported (also on this thread) that the missing metal sheet was found inside Bangalore Airport compound itself.
OT: Yea, B.Tech was the time for such jokes and poor riddles!

About the dreamliner, I guess Boeing has not been having the dream run they hoped for. Lot of troubles for both AI and Boeing
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Old 18th November 2013, 12:41   #229
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

^^
There were two more instances of issues on AI Dreamliner.

London - Delhi flight did a priority landing due to warning light on breaking system and another aircraft got its windshield cracked on landing at Melbourne airport.
TOI Report
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Old 18th November 2013, 13:23   #230
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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^^
There were two more instances of issues on AI Dreamliner.

London - Delhi flight did a priority landing due to warning light on breaking system and another aircraft got its windshield cracked on landing at Melbourne airport.
TOI Report
a. You need to understand what the warning light said. Friends have told me that braking warning lights come up for a variety of reasons - if it doesnt come up in http://www.avherald.com/ then its not something you and I should give a damn about. Media may just be over-blowing things here.

b. Windshield cracks do happen - its not entirely unusual, nor is it a big safety issue in general.
Again, the above rule is the one to keep in mind.

talking about media, look at http://www.avherald.com/h?article=46b5f648&opt=0 - something like that would've made folks bay for AI's blood in India, but the rest of us would happily continue to fly SQ, would we not?

btw, Jeroen - I've had it worse in a Ryanair flight to Frankfurt ten years back. We cruised really low for about half an hour - with exact model types of vehicles really visible (say ANHC vs NHC) for easily the last five minutes. The aircraft landed at the beginning of the runway, went right till the end and then took a REALLY sharp exit out on the last taxiway (it wasnt a RET for sure). People were really relieved when the aircraft finally rolled to a rest at the stand!

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Old 18th November 2013, 13:48   #231
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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a. You need to understand what the warning light said. Friends have told me that braking warning lights come up for a variety of reasons - if it doesnt come up in http://www.avherald.com/ then its not something you and I should give a damn about. Media may just be over-blowing things here.

b. Windshield cracks do happen - its not entirely unusual, nor is it a big safety issue in general.
Again, the above rule is the one to keep in mind.

talking about media, look at http://www.avherald.com/h?article=46b5f648&opt=0 - something like that would've made folks bay for AI's blood in India, but the rest of us would happily continue to fly SQ, would we not?

btw, Jeroen - I've had it worse in a Ryanair flight to Frankfurt ten years back. We cruised really low for about half an hour - with exact model types of vehicles really visible (say ANHC vs NHC) for easily the last five minutes. The aircraft landed at the beginning of the runway, went right till the end and then took a REALLY sharp exit out on the last taxiway (it wasnt a RET for sure). People were really relieved when the aircraft finally rolled to a rest at the stand!
Without knowing what alarm it is really guessing. However, it was relevant enough to warrant a divert and land apparently. So, it must be something potentially pretty relevant, or you just continue and have it looked at at your destination airport.

Not to worry anybody unduly, but planes do take off every day, with not all systems working. There are very strict rules on what system or system faults can be present.

Boeing produces a so called MEL (Minimum Equipment List), not sure what it is calles with Airbus. It lists every possible malfuntion and whether you can still take off, and actions that need to be taken before take off with said system out of order or malfuntion present.

So for example, if the autobrake system is malfunctioning, you might still want to take off, but you need to take precautions not to arm the system and use manual braking. The MEL will tell you exactly what you can and are allowed to do, what action to take.

Again, it all depends on the exact nature of the fault message that show up in the cockpit.

There are various inflight emergencies, that will still allow the plane to make a perfectly normal landing. When you're told to assume the "brace position" that's when you need to worry. Or when you see fire engines chasing your plane. Happened to me once, long time ago.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 18th November 2013 at 13:51.
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Old 18th November 2013, 17:11   #232
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

Just as an example: KLM 747-400 MEL:

As you can see the number required for dispatch is less than the number installed. And various instructions on what you have to do before you are allowed to take off with these fewer items operable.

The full MEL is about 900 pages similar to this!

Jeroen
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Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review-klm-mel.jpeg  

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Old 22nd November 2013, 08:33   #233
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This would be funny, if it wasnt so serious:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...kansas-airport

I know both these airport having visited them several times. Very nice aviation museum near McConnel AFB. Wichita has a really rich aviation. Military, GA and commercial aviation.

Its is remarkable, to say the least, that this could happen. Still, it does happen, this is not the first time a professional and experienced flight crew lands on the wrong airport, despite all modern electronics, GPS, radio communication and some very noticeable differences between these two airports.

Live and learn I guess.

Jeroen
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Old 22nd November 2013, 11:09   #234
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

I think this has happened before in India. A SAUDIA B747 missed landing at Chennai (MAA) airport and instead landed in Tambaram Airforce base. The pilot some how was able to land without issues in the reduced runway but take off from the airport was a problem. I believe they had to do a lot of weight reduction methods to make the jumbo fly again
1. Remove certain cabin equipments like aircon equipment, seats
2. Fuel just enough for the journey from Tambaram and Meenambakkam where MAA is, maybe include more for go-around.
3. Using the full thrust of engines (more than what is used normally to reduce engine burnout and noise-abatement)

More info here

Imagine the plight of passengers when they see an unfamiliar airport when they thought they reached home. Also, they probably were made to wait until temp immigration staff is arranged for?

Last edited by DWind : 22nd November 2013 at 11:11.
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Old 23rd November 2013, 21:19   #235
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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I think this has happened before in India. A SAUDIA B747 missed landing at Chennai (MAA) airport and instead landed in Tambaram Airforce base. The pilot some how was able to land without issues in the reduced runway but take off from the airport was a problem. I believe they had to do a lot of weight reduction methods to make the jumbo fly again
1. Remove certain cabin equipments like aircon equipment, seats
2. Fuel just enough for the journey from Tambaram and Meenambakkam where MAA is, maybe include more for go-around.
3. Using the full thrust of engines (more than what is used normally to reduce engine burnout and noise-abatement)

More info here

Imagine the plight of passengers when they see an unfamiliar airport when they thought they reached home. Also, they probably were made to wait until temp immigration staff is arranged for?

Thanks, interesting story. They really had to shed some weight here.
The Dreamlifter took off, without any problems. A 747 can easily take off on runway from less than 2000m, when light.

There are several factors that are relevant and are used to make the take off calculations, such as:

- Weight, obviously a big factor
- Wind, the more head wing the less runway you need
- slope of the runway
- Status of the runway surface (e.g. snow would create friction and thus more length)
- Altitude of the airport, the higher the more runway length you require
- ambient temperature, the higher the more runway length you require
- Stopping distance, if you abort before reaching V1
- Clearing an obstacle at the end of the runway
- Flap settings

The crew has various tables and or graphs available to make these calculations. This performance information is part of the standard operating manuals that are required on board of any plane, big or small.

These days, very often on an iPad like device where you just input the relevant parameters. For most commercial carriers I believe this work will be done by the dispatch team, but the crew must verify it. And adjust where needed.

Loved doing all these calculations!

Jeroen
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Old 24th November 2013, 11:29   #236
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
When you're told to assume the "brace position" that's when you need to worry. Or when you see fire engines chasing your plane. Happened to me once, long time ago.

Jeroen
So what was the story of that incident? Could you please post here?
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Old 24th November 2013, 17:09   #237
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So what was the story of that incident? Could you please post here?
I've never had to brace, but I've experienced several interesting incidents. One did involve the fire engines chasing us:

Here's what happened. Its many years ago. I was flying a KLM Cityhopper Fokker 50 from Amsterdam to Bordeaux. I had some meetings there.

I was sitting right behind the cockpit. In those days they left the cockpit door routinely open, so every body could watch.

Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review-fokker50_kp.jpg

Normal flight. We land and a few seconds after the wheels touchdown I hear the fire alarm in the cockpit go off! Before we had come to a complete stop there were two fire engines, one on the right side, one on the left side, barreling along us. As soon as the plane came to a full stop, several fire men ran towards our plane and started inspecting the landing gear.

The captain came on the PA and told us this was just a pre-caution, as they had received an "cockpit indication". Within a few minutes everything was apparently under control and the captain told us we were proceeding normally to our gate and there was nothing to worry about.

That evening in the bar of my hotel I ran into the same KLM cabin and cockpit crew. Turned out we were staying in the same hotel.

So I had a little chat with the captain. He told me that a soon as they touched down the tower reported smoke from the right main landing gear and they told the fire brigade to roll immediately. The cockpit did get a fire alarm at the same time. I was actually sitting at the right side of this plane watching the landing gear as we touched down. This is one of the few plane where you can actually see the tires hitting the tarmac and the gear flexing. And I remember thinking, that's quite a bit of smoke. I thought it was just tire smoke. Never seen this up close, so not sure what to expect.

Apparently, what happens with these Fokker 50, is that oil from the engine now and then leaks on the gear and other components. Nothing much, but as soon as it heats up, (braking) it produces a lot of smoke. Captain told me it happened to him at least once a year. I was surprised to see the fire tenders so quickly at our side. And the captain confirmed that they were much quicker than normal. As it so happens these two fire tenders were driving around the airport and were at our runway when we touched down. So when the tower told them to roll, they only had to put the pedal to the metal and catch up with us.

Last week on JetAirways 9W332 Delhi to Mumbai we apparently suffered from a loss of cabin pressure:

This is the text I send to JetAirways:

About 20-30 minutes into the flight, I noticed we started a pretty sharp
descent and turn.
No announcement were made untill about 30 minutes later.
What was remarkable that we kept descending, very gradually but continuously. I have never flown that long that low in a
commercial jet. I am a private pilot so I'm reasonable sure on my estimates on our altitude.

Whilst parked at the gate, the captain announced that the technical issue was "a loss of cabin pressure"

I'd like a thorough explanation on the following three questions:

1) Communication during the flight
The communication during the flight was appalling. Absolutely nothing was done to give the passenger any sense of comfort or safety. Everybody knew something was happening, everybody was pushing the flight attendant push bottom,but they had no information or consolation to offer. When the captain finally did come over the PA he only announced we have a technical issue and are returning to Delhi. No comforting words that we should not have to worry, that it would be a normal landing or anything.

2) Why did we come in so low? We were well below any known published approach I'm familiar with.

3) Why was there no communication, none, for twenty minutes whilst at the gate? Everybody was standing up, we were not allowed to leave the plane, but nobody, neither flight crew or cabin crew made any announcements.

They have promised me an answer by this Monday, so we'll see.

Jeroen
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Old 24th November 2013, 17:49   #238
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

It would be interesting to hear what they have to say. Did you notice the pre-flight instructions for the use of life jackets etc are given so mechanically with an attendant manning the PA system and a couple of others making the movements on cue? It's simply a necessary chore which, if not done, would land them in trouble.

I guess we still aren't out of the age where information was held from anyone and everyone.

EDIT: @Jeroen: you mentioned in one of your posts above that snow creates friction and hence more runway is needed. Should it be the opposite? Could you throw some light on this? By the way I haven't yet visited areas which experience snowfall, so my image of snow is something close to the ice accumulating in the refridgerator, so I may be way out of my league on this question.

In the same post you have also mentioned if the airstrip is at a higher altitude or if the ambient temperatures are high you will need more runway: I guess it's because the air is thinner?

Last edited by honeybee : 24th November 2013 at 17:56.
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Old 24th November 2013, 19:14   #239
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Speaking of weird flights, I had a crazy flight coming back from KL to chennai this Friday. About one third of the time, the flight was shaking - the kind when shortly after takeoff, the flight is among the clouds, like that. Except it kept happening every ten minutes for like 3-4 minutes. Real unnerving. Just . Could. Not. Sleep. This mess started somewhere near Sumatra/Indonesia (300km flying distance - I checked the AVOD!!) and kept happening till when we started descending.

oh, and no announcements about the weather - the seat-belt sign stayed on for well over an hour after takeoff, and kept coming back on. No courtesy sake announcements by the pilot(s) either. The landing was textbook otherwise.

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Old 24th November 2013, 19:35   #240
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by DWind View Post
I think this has happened before in India. A SAUDIA B747 missed landing at Chennai (MAA) airport and instead landed in Tambaram Airforce base. The pilot some how was able to land without issues in the reduced runway but take off from the airport was a problem. I believe they had to do a lot of weight reduction methods to make the jumbo fly again
1. Remove certain cabin equipments like aircon equipment, seats
2. Fuel just enough for the journey from Tambaram and Meenambakkam where MAA is, maybe include more for go-around.
3. Using the full thrust of engines (more than what is used normally to reduce engine burnout and noise-abatement)
I remember this incident. I think one end of the runway faces a lake, and the plane was made to take off towards the lake, just in case.
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