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Old 15th April 2015, 13:35   #391
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
The leading edge has only slats not flaps. Slats are useful in high angle of attack and slow speed scenario. Infact the opposite is true, in mild to moderate turbulence where as the A320 or the 319 can stay comfortable, the 321 develops an exaggerated left right oscillatory movement, which even though is not unsafe, is highly uncomfortable for the passengers.

Thanks for the info

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Why is that, could you elobroate please
Jeroen

I do not know the technical aspect of this. This was told to me by one of the A321 pilot who had earlier piloted A320. It was purely his statement and not backed by any technical info .
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Old 15th April 2015, 20:38   #392
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Thanks, but I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying the 321 has no flaps?
there are quite a few thread on PRuNe regarding flaps settings on the Airbus 319,320, 321. such as these:

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/27216...ding-flap.html

I havent come across anything (yet?) that you suggest? The one thing I see is that most pilots/carriers will use flaps setting less then full when in a heavy crosswind. Which is more or less what you would expect for just about any type of aircraft.

Jeroen
Flaps are at the trailing edge of the wing, slats are on the leading edge of the wing. Reduced flap is good for better go around performance, low speed control is better with full flaps, airbus aircraft are certified do do a config full or flap 3 landing up to their crosswind limitation.
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Old 15th April 2015, 22:08   #393
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Flaps are at the trailing edge of the wing, slats are on the leading edge of the wing. Reduced flap is good for better go around performance, low speed control is better with full flaps, airbus aircraft are certified do do a config full or flap 3 landing up to their crosswind limitation.
For what its worth here my 2 cents on this one: The reduced flap settings in cross wind has more to do with aerodynamic behaviour, i.e. aileron effectiveness especially with gusts, rather then go around performance.

its balancing somewhat higher speeds, potentially longer float in ground effects against better controllability in crosswind/gusty conditions.

Go around is, I think, is not really a consideration. Check the SOP of just about any plane and for Go Around, you will find something along the lines of:
- firewall the throttles
- nose up
- retract flaps from full to the next step

Eg. form the KLM 747-400 AOM:
- Push TOGA switch
- Call GO AROUND, flaps 20

As long as the speed is above Vref. Which it should be anyway. When I look at my Airbus manuals I see the same, except no reference to Vref.

It's the exact same thing in the little planes I fly, e.g Cessna, Cirrus, Diamond.

Apply full power, level wings, pitch up to stop descent and start retracting the flaps one notch

On most planes the stall speed difference between full flaps and one step below full flap isn't that big. And you will be flying, even in landing configuration and on final well above the stall speed. Especially in (commercial) jets you will be flying at Vref plus 5 knots or so. In the little planes I fly you tend to be closer to Vref, because you land them by actually stalling them and dropping onto the runway.

Just to illustrate and because I'm proud of this landing as it is considered to be one of the most difficult ones in the USA. Here's me landing my Cirrus at Catelina of the California coast. At 0.53 you can here a distinct buzzer going off. That is the stall warning horn. At that point in time we are floating in ground effect a few feet of the runway. When we stall, the airplane settles on the runway.



Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 15th April 2015 at 22:15.
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Old 16th April 2015, 10:26   #394
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
For what its worth here my 2 cents on this one:
Firstly, sorry to be a bit harsh on you here, Please don't bring up generic examples regarding what I have just posted. For the airbus reduced flaps are used for better go around performance, in gusty or wind shear conditions. The flaps setting for normal landings is full flaps, reduced flaps are in case of what I said above or for failure cases. I am telling this based on my line experience of over 8 years and in command about 3 years on the 320 family of aircraft and based on what the airbus standard operating procedure says.

Reduced flap (in airbus case) flap 3 landings can be done on LDA> 7000 feet, when not on wet runways, not during tailwinds, not in low visibility conditions. Remember most cross winds have tailwind components and a increase of 5 knots of tailwind increases landing distance required by about 160 meters!!

Besides landing in config 3 increases landing roll, break and reverser usage, and fuel savings over config full landings are a mere 8 kgs. This and increased nose up pitch (7.5 degrees versus 5 degrees) which causes reduced tail clearance.

Lot of airlines are looking at reduced flap landings as a part of normal landing, subject to the awareness of the above, and it is always safety first, when in doubt go config full.
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Old 20th April 2015, 09:02   #395
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Firstly, sorry to be a bit harsh on you here.
No offense, no harshness spotted


m
Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
y line experience of over 8 years and in command about 3 years on the 320 family of aircraft and based on what the airbus standard operating procedure says..
Great to hear we have some real line pilots on the forum. I'm just PPL with an IFR rating and the usuall endorsements. Lots of time flying jump seat in various planes and close to 40 hours on the Lufthansa/Cargolux 747-400 simulators in Europe. Still learning and for me its just a hobby/interest, not a job of course.

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Besides landing in config 3 increases landing roll, break and reverser usage, and fuel savings over config full landings are a mere 8 kgs. This and increased nose up pitch (7.5 degrees versus 5 degrees) which causes reduced tail clearance..
The fuel savings is purely from less drag I imagine? And that is of course, only for a very short time. Ie the time you would usually have the last notch of flap dialled in when on final. The pitch up and increase in landing roll is very noticeable in the small planes I fly too. And need to be accounted for. Once on our flying club Cessna Cardinal the flaps were out of commission for several weeks. So we flew it for all that time without using flaps. I was doing my IFR training at the time and we did not have another IFR certified plane. Took a bit of getting used too, of course check take off / landing distance, but once you get the hang of it, its no great shakes.

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Lot of airlines are looking at reduced flap landings as a part of normal landing, subject to the awareness of the above, and it is always safety first, when in doubt go config full.
Its remarkable how these things can change per aircraft and or carrier.
On the 747 both flap settings 25 and 30 are used as default. The main consideration for some to go to 30 being landing distance and typically any landing below a cat III. On the 747 there tends to be 1o in pitch difference between the two flap settings.

There is also some difference in noise levels, wich can be relevant I guess at certain airports.

You would think that flying is very much an exact scientific/engineering sort of activity. So in an ideal world you would think for any given situation there is one (best/optimal) way of doing it.

But how carriers go about their flyingp rocedures, can still differ considerably. As part of my hobby I have been collecting just about every manual / bulletin / procedure on the 747-400. Its remarkable how many differences there are between one carriers AOM versus the next. It's not just about how procedures could be different, but also what level of information is in the AOM.

Ir remains a fascinating world. I have not had a chance to fly here in India in the last three years. I do manage to put in the few odd hours here and there in Europe and USA when I travel. Way to little to stay current, but I still enjoy it immensely.

Fly safely!

Jeroen
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Old 30th April 2015, 11:00   #396
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

For all your aviation enthusiast, here's a bit of interesting new development:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32517996

It will be a while before it takes to the skies, as usual.
Jeroen
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Old 2nd May 2015, 07:51   #397
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

If you find yourself on the 787 Dreamliner, you might want to double check with the pilot if he recently rebooted the system. Unbelievable!

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...oss-of-control

Jeroen
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Old 3rd May 2015, 21:37   #398
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

Continuing our saga about how safe Indian skies and or Indian carriers are:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/a.../1/433297.html

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/dgca-pull.../535079-3.html

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/two-air-i.../538173-3.html

This is a sightly older article, but it still makes me wonder:

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...operating-crew

To me, it is simply incomprehensible that a flight gets delayed because somebody shows up late. Irrespective who that person is. At least this person had the grace to call it a miscommunication. But any dignitary who believes he or she is entitled to a preferential treatment over and above what the ordinary public gets, requires immediate sacking according to my standards!

Nothing to do with aviation, all to do with common sense and the understanding that everybody is equal.

The notion that a flight crew gets in a tiff over a dignitary running late, should be cause for all dignitaries not to have any preferential treatment.

The Dutch prime minister rides a bicycle to parliament for crying out loud!
https://www.kenya-today.com/news/sho...o-just-bicycle

Even after three years in India, the notion that experience, position, tittle, gender, who you parents were, hierarchy etc sets you apart from others remains completely alien and utterly wrong to me!

Jeroen
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Old 4th May 2015, 11:04   #399
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
If you find yourself on the 787 Dreamliner, you might want to double check with the pilot if he recently rebooted the system. Unbelievable!

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...oss-of-control

Jeroen
Just out of curiosity,

Will any aircraft be on standby mode for that long duration?(Irrespective of make and model)
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Old 4th May 2015, 19:41   #400
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Will any aircraft be on standby mode for that long duration?(Irrespective of make and model)
I checked with a friend who works in the aviation industry and is involved in the design of various aircraft systems.

The changes are probably very small. But not zero. More and more operators simply don't power down ever -- they plug in ground power and keep all systems running, on 737 and 777 and everything in between.

They used to produce mini quick access recorders with cellular modems to offload data while the aircraft is parked. Originally (years ago) they triggered on power down and used their own battery to go online during the stopover. As fewer and fewer planes get powered down, they had to change the system logic.

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Old 12th May 2015, 08:23   #401
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

Mesmerizing to watch!

http://www.aviationmagic.com/london-...747-a340-b777/

Enjoy, Jeroen
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Old 12th May 2015, 08:54   #402
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

The fuel savings is purely from less drag I imagine? And that is of course, only for a very short time. Ie the time you would usually have the last notch of flap dialled in when on final. The pitch up and increase in landing roll is very noticeable in the small planes I fly too. And need to be accounted for. Once on our flying club Cessna Cardinal the flaps were out of commission for several weeks. So we flew it for all that time without using flaps. I was doing my IFR training at the time and we did not have another IFR certified plane. Took a bit of getting used too, of course check take off / landing distance, but once you get the hang of it, its no great shakes.



Its remarkable how these things can change per aircraft and or carrier.
On the 747 both flap settings 25 and 30 are used as default. The main consideration for some to go to 30 being landing distance and typically any landing below a cat III. On the 747 there tends to be 1o in pitch difference between the two flap settings.

There is also some difference in noise levels, wich can be relevant I guess at certain airports.

You would think that flying is very much an exact scientific/engineering sort of activity. So in an ideal world you would think for any given situation there is one (best/optimal) way of doing it.

But how carriers go about their flyingp rocedures, can still differ considerably. As part of my hobby I have been collecting just about every manual / bulletin / procedure on the 747-400. Its remarkable how many differences there are between one carriers AOM versus the next. It's not just about how procedures could be different, but also what level of information is in the AOM.

Ir remains a fascinating world. I have not had a chance to fly here in India in the last three years. I do manage to put in the few odd hours here and there in Europe and USA when I travel. Way to little to stay current, but I still enjoy it immensely.

Fly safely!

Jeroen
You are doing the bit of flying which IMO is the best form of flying, which is recreational flying. Keep it up, safe landings!!

Regarding the airbus 320, the flap config 3 landing is actually an abnormal procedure as per airbus manuals. The airplane has performance figures for a config 3 landing, but it is intended to be used when a loss of hydraulics, flight control computers or surfaces make config full landing impossible.
Config 3 is also recommended when one suspects wind-shear on approach, because it gives more control for a possible go around (lesser sink rate in a shear)

Commercially the bean counters got wise to the fact that each config 3 landing could save 8-10 kgs of fuel compared to a flaps full landing, and this figure is substantial savings when compared to the number of flights per day, per month and a year. But one needs to be aware that the landing pitch and attitude are higher on a config 3 compared to a config full landing, about 2-3 degrees more, so in case of low visibility, haze or rain it is safer to do a config full landing.
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Old 12th May 2015, 13:53   #403
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Mesmerizing to watch!

http://www.aviationmagic.com/london-...747-a340-b777/

Enjoy, Jeroen
Wow busy airport! Does it mean on landing approach a pilot actually sees (visually) the aircraft in front?
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Old 12th May 2015, 14:23   #404
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Wow busy airport! Does it mean on landing approach a pilot actually sees (visually) the aircraft in front?
Yes. In Bengaluru airport itself at some peak times we can see upto three aircraft flying behind one another(of course with the required separation) for the final approach within visual range. Beautiful sight in my native village which is located right in line with runway 27.
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Old 12th May 2015, 14:26   #405
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Wow busy airport! Does it mean on landing approach a pilot actually sees (visually) the aircraft in front?
Yup , this is the case with many busy airports.

But the aircraft's are separated by a minimum distance(typically a mile or two ) determined by the weather conditions prevailing at the point of time on the approach path. This is to avoid a smaller aircraft running into the wake turbulence generated by a bigger aircraft if there is a bigger aircraft in front of the smaller.

If the winds are very less then the turbulence would not be washed away and can cause loss of control to the trailing aircraft. If the area is windy the turbulence gets dissipated and the chances of affecting the trailing aircraft is less
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