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Old 12th May 2015, 14:31   #406
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Wow busy airport! Does it mean on landing approach a pilot actually sees (visually) the aircraft in front?
This is Gatwick airport, UK. The busiest International single runway in the world. On average there is a take off and landing every 45 seconds.

It depends of course on the metereological conditions, but yes, what the camera sees, your eye would see. Any busy airport with good visibility and you could see the same pattern with various aircraft lining up

ATC will space the aircraft with sufficient room between them. It also depends a bit on the size of the aircraft. You have to watch for the wake turbulence that the plane in front of you creates, rule is the bigger the aircraft the bigger the turbulence, so the bigger the spacing.

The pilots will obviously watch the plane in front of them, ATC will be telling them proceed to land and ultemately tell them "clear to land". That's typically when the plane in front has landed and has vacated the runway completely. If not, there will be a Go-Around

ATC hate it when I fly into a busy airport in my little single engine plane. I'm slow, compared to the commercial jets, and very susceptible to wake turbulence, so they need to give me plenty of space.

you will notice that ATC lines up the planes very far out. It's difficult to judge from the video, but at probably 6 miles out from the runway threshold the planes will be alligned with the runway heading.

I used to fly in and out of Kansas City International a lot. ATC would never put the small planes in this sort of landing que. They would vector me in to a position just aside of runway threshold and told to circle. i.e. hold on a continous 360. As soon as a commercial jet was abeam, they would clear me to land and I would fly the so called base leg and turn final. It also gave me a much better position to judge the flight path of the commercial planes. As long as you stay above their flight path and touch down beyond their touch down point on the runway you dont enconter wake turbulence.

Maybe surprising to some, but ATC does not prioritize commercial traffic over non commercial traffic. (at least in USA and Europe) It is essentially first come first served. If I arrive in my little Cessna or Cirrus before a 747 Jumbo jet, I get to land first and the 747 and all its passengers need to wait!

So ATC really needs to merge and sync all these different types of planes, with different speeds etc.

As part of the FAA Wings program in which I used to be a very active participant I have had the opportunity to do some of the ATC simulator training. So essentially, you sit behind a simulated radar screen and you instruct the various planes what to do. If you think being a pilot can be stressfull, think again, Air Traffic Controller must be one of the most continous stressfull jobs on earth.

Jeroen
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Old 12th May 2015, 19:45   #407
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

Just noticed, not Gatwick, but Heathrow in the video. So two runways instead of one. Still pretty pathetic as international airports go, runway wise!

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Old 25th May 2015, 08:00   #408
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

Not so positive:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/47409637.cms
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Old 27th May 2015, 23:37   #409
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

May not be related to this thread, but since this is the only place where aviation is being discussed heres something. For those who want to give Air traffic control a try, check out a game called Endless ATC available on android market. Quite addictive and at the same time is technically sound, not like other games which makes the whole scenario look lame. Posting a screenshot to give an idea for those who haven't come across this.

Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review-screenshot_20150527232203.png

Last edited by audioholic : 27th May 2015 at 23:38.
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Old 28th May 2015, 20:22   #410
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Just noticed, not Gatwick, but Heathrow in the video. So two runways instead of one. Still pretty pathetic as international airports go, runway wise!

Jeroen
Incidentally Mumbai ATC has got trained in single runway traffic management from Gatwick. Earlier they used to barely manage 30 takeoff/landings per hour, now with periodic training, they easily manage 45 takeoff/landings per hour and can peak at 50-52 takeoff/landing per hour. This is the best in the country right now, and they have come out with a conditional landing clearance, when visibility is 5kms or more. In this clearance you are instructed to land behind an aircraft taking off, so it is in your judgement to see that you touch down post his wheels up, or prepare for a go around in-case he rejects takeoff or is slow to lift off.
On a normal day morning hours (before 1030) and evening hours (from 1800 till 2300) are super busy with about 45-50 takeoff/landings per hour and airplane separation is maintained at about 5 nm. They somehow manage heavy behind heavy and medium behind medium, and small aircraft are simply not permitted to operate in the peak hours.
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Old 28th May 2015, 20:53   #411
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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In this clearance you are instructed to land behind an aircraft taking off, so it is in your judgement to see that you touch down post his wheels up, or prepare for a go around in-case he rejects takeoff or is slow to lift off.
Apachelongbow, what happens when the aircraft is slow to lift off, and the landing aircraft decides to go around? If the landing aircraft decides to go around, shouldnt the aircraft taking off reject takeoff? Or is there something different in this procedure you explained?

Imagine an AI aircraft is on a long takeoff run and doesnt lift off, by the time an Indigo aircraft is something like 500ft AGL wanting to land. Can you explain what happens in this scenario?
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:05   #412
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Apachelongbow, what happens when the aircraft is slow to lift off, and the landing aircraft decides to go around? If the landing aircraft decides to go around, shouldnt the aircraft taking off reject takeoff? Or is there something different in this procedure you explained?

Imagine an AI aircraft is on a long takeoff run and doesnt lift off, by the time an Indigo aircraft is something like 500ft AGL wanting to land. Can you explain what happens in this scenario?
It is a good question, and let me see if I can explain this in simple words. Conditional landing clearance means the Captain of the landing aircraft is responsible to ensure he/she lands when the runway is clear of the aircraft taking off. In any case the minimum height one can continue even on a ILS (instrument landing system) approach is 200 feet above airport elevation. In any case if by 200 feet if I see that the aircraft on the runway has not taken off, or has rejected the takeoff for any reason, I will elect to go around, and inform the ATC. Now 2 things can happen, either the aircraft on ground can reject his takeoff, or if his speed is above his decision speed, then he continues takeoff and gets airborne. Then the ATC takes over and instructs the climbing aircraft to level off at 1000 feet or some low level, and continue straight out over the sea, and I will be asked to climb off quickly to 3700 feet (the go around altitude in Mumbai), and then turn right back towards the east. This way a safe separation is achieved. That's why a visibility criteria of 5000 meters (5 kms) is required, because this is a visual maneuver.
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Old 28th May 2015, 23:01   #413
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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It is a good question, and let me see if I can explain this in simple words. Conditional landing clearance means the Captain of the landing aircraft is responsible to ensure he/she lands when the runway is clear of the aircraft taking off. In any case the minimum height one can continue even on a ILS (instrument landing system) approach is 200 feet above airport elevation. In any case if by 200 feet if I see that the aircraft on the runway has not taken off, or has rejected the takeoff for any reason, I will elect to go around, and inform the ATC. Now 2 things can happen, either the aircraft on ground can reject his takeoff, or if his speed is above his decision speed, then he continues takeoff and gets airborne..
Thanks for the clarification. It was clear enough for me to understand. Reminds me of a recent incident where IIRC a plane landed just after another aircraft lifted off the ground. It was a real close call. Forgot the link though.
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Old 29th May 2015, 23:53   #414
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Incidentally Mumbai ATC has got trained in single runway traffic management from Gatwick. Earlier they used to barely manage 30 takeoff/landings per hour, now with periodic training, they easily manage 45 takeoff/landings per hour and can peak at 50-52 takeoff/landing per hour. This is the best in the country right now, and they have come out with a conditional landing clearance, when visibility is 5kms or more.
Thanks, interesting I did not know that.

Conditional Clearances can and are used by ATC for all sorts of situations, but they have invited some hairy situations in the past as well.

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/C...onal_Clearance

I guess at Gatwick and at Mumbai this is now very much a standard practice and everybody is used to it.

I don't think I have ever been giving a condition clearance to land. I have been in situations where the tower tells me to 'proceed to land' which means I continue in the pattern (VFR) or follow the SID/approach (IFR). At some point in time they would tell me "cleared to land".

I have heard conditional clearances mostly whilst taxing. I.e "Cirrus 747CV cleared to cross RWxy, after MD80 passes you from the right".

I'll be honest, I was never entirely comfortable with these conditional clearances, which probably also shows my lack of experience.

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Old 30th May 2015, 01:21   #415
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I was checking Mumbai international on google maps - one a/c on runway probably on take off run - one aircraft just crossing the beach ( same line as runway) both seem to be mediums while a heavy ( clearly a 4 engine) is lining up for landing.
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Old 30th May 2015, 08:44   #416
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

There is a cross runway operation being used in Mumbai, when the weather is good. As we all know Mumbai has 2 runways, primary being 09-27 and secondary being 14-32. During cross runway ops, 14 is used for takeoff and 27 is used to land. So after each takeoff, there is a landing and vice versa, it is extremely useful in traffic management and cutting down in holding and delays, but puts tremendous strain on the ATC in terms of coordination.
The entire problem with Mumbai's congestion is political and not operational. I am not sure if people know, but almost 1/3rds of the airport land (almost 600 acres) is under occupation by illegal slums and shanties, mostly built up by fleeing Bangladeshi refugees and stowaways. If political interference is removed, and the land is freed up, Mumbai will get 2 parallel 12000 foot runways with parallel taxiways, leading to very minimal congestion and much better traffic management.
However the politicians in their infinite wisdom, don't want to damage their vote bank, and are instead proposing a greenfield project 50 kms out of Mumbai, in New Mumbai which will cost the nation almost 40-50000 crores ....
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Old 31st May 2015, 10:35   #417
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I was reading the other day there are also illegally built properties including bill boards near the end of the runways? Effectively reducing runway length as you need to be able to clear these obstacles. Any truth to those rumors? Do illegally constructed buildings get mentioned in NOTAMs?
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Old 2nd June 2015, 12:19   #418
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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I was reading the other day there are also illegally built properties including bill boards near the end of the runways? Effectively reducing runway length as you need to be able to clear these obstacles. Any truth to those rumors? Do illegally constructed buildings get mentioned in NOTAMs?
Thanks
Luckily there are no illegal buildings or billboards on the approach or departure path of all the runways. The entire Juhu, Andheri and Ghatkopar area have strict building codes especially in the approach and departure funnel areas, and if you observe, all the buildings around are of low height, compared to the rest of the city and suburbs.
Interestingly, the more disturbing question is: what if you lose an engine (single engine aircraft) or both engines (on multis) just after takeoff, due say birds? There is no clear area around the airport to try and make an emergency landing. If departing from 27 one can always try and ditch into the sea, but departing from runway 14 or 09 one has densely populated suburbs followed by high hills between 3-4000 feet around 15-20nm from the runway.
IMO Mumbai airport is a huge compromise in terms of safety and operational needs, and it is high time the new airport at Navi Mumbai is built
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Old 2nd June 2015, 13:01   #419
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Luckily there are no illegal buildings or billboards on the approach or departure path of all the runways. The entire Juhu, Andheri and Ghatkopar area have strict building codes especially in the approach and departure funnel areas, and if you observe, all the buildings around are of low height, compared to the rest of the city and suburbs.
Interestingly, the more disturbing question is: what if you lose an engine (single engine aircraft) or both engines (on multis) just after takeoff, due say birds? There is no clear area around the airport to try and make an emergency landing. If departing from 27 one can always try and ditch into the sea, but departing from runway 14 or 09 one has densely populated suburbs followed by high hills between 3-4000 feet around 15-20nm from the runway.
IMO Mumbai airport is a huge compromise in terms of safety and operational needs, and it is high time the new airport at Navi Mumbai is built
Dear Apache,

Your observations on Bombay airport are spot on!

Agreed that a new airport at Navi Mumbai is needed, but imagine the inconvinience it will cause to the people of Bombay. For e.g :: I stay in the western burbs and have to straight take the WEH and be at the airport in about 30 minutes to catch the flight, now if this thing moves out of Bombay, imagine the increase in travel times, i suppose nothing less than 2 1/2 to 3 hours of run time one way just to reach the airport. So for a 2 hour domestic flight, I am making a road journey of 3 hours.

Even on International departures wherein you are required to be at the airport atleast 2-3 hours prior departure, I am straight away adding 6-7 hours to my travel time which is a huge amount of time.

Also consider the notorious traffic jams on this route which are existent today and the same roads (with no new road planned specially for airport users) will be used by people travelling to the airport whenever it is made operational.

I still feel that the domestic operations must continue from the current airport and never move out to Navi Mumbai.

Sorry, if this feels like a rant but this new airport simply looks like a bad bad idea.

P.S :: The pace at which the Govt is moving in building this new airport, I suppose my grand children will be the unfortunate ones to use it. Just to add perspective, I am 31. .



Regards
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Old 2nd June 2015, 13:23   #420
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Interestingly, the more disturbing question is: what if you lose an engine (single engine aircraft) or both engines (on multis) just after takeoff, due say birds? There is no clear area around the airport to try and make an emergency landing. If departing from 27 one can always try and ditch into the sea, but departing from runway 14 or 09 one has densely populated suburbs followed by high hills between 3-4000 feet around 15-20nm from the runway.
IMO Mumbai airport is a huge compromise in terms of safety and operational needs, and it is high time the new airport at Navi Mumbai is built

Thanks, of course Mumbai isn't unique in the sense of having very little or no clear area around the airport. Several other (international) airports spring to mind, although Mumbai might even stand out compared to those.

My own hometown, Amsterdam Airport springs to mind, in particular runway 18-36 which is completely boxed in by (residential) buildings.

Luckily, the multi engine out scenario's are very rare indeed, but they do happen occasionally.

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