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Old 19th December 2015, 11:23   #466
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Really tragic and points out how procedures are blindly disregarded. I had a personal experience of seeing an AI flight at Pune airport with one engine running during pushback. I then wondered how casually such things are treated in India. This was six months ago and I assumed it to be a one off case. Looks like its a common affair to see APUs INOP. I thought trains and buses lack maintenance, but looks like the same attitude is shown towards aircraft too. Very shocking.
What is more shocking is how people make such absurd assumptions. What makes you think that an engine running during pushback implies that the procedures are being disregarded or that a faulty APU means a lack of maintainance ?? Just because an APU is faulty, you expect the operator to cancell all schedule flights for the day and repair the APU when the manufacturer allows for an excemption under MEL? The fault is rectified within the stipulated time as prescribed( Usually on a night halt). It happens ALL OVER THE WORLD and not just in India.

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Close the opposite isolation valve, get engine 1 going with a pneumatic start at the gate. Disconnect EXT AIR, and push back. Set the park brake, ask ground to verify the area behind the airplane is clear of equipment and personnel prior to increasing thrust on the operating No 1 engine.

Advance the No 1 Engine to 70% N3, check the duct pressure is @ 30%psi and (auto) start Engine No 2. Then Re set the closed isolation valve, and (auto)start engine 2.
Not sure what aircraft you reference to when you say " opposite isolation valve" but on twins there is only ONE isolation valve, which as the name suggests, isolates the left peumatic manifold from the right.BTW, isolation valve is kept in Auto or open for ground starts and not closed. Also both Engine 1 or 2 can be started using ground air. It is common to start Engine 1 first as the Electrical power source (GPU) is normally placed on the right but in case of airports like delhi, where the aerobridge supplies the electrical power, it is not uncomman to to start engine number 2 first.

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Old 19th December 2015, 12:01   #467
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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What is more shocking is how people make such absurd assumptions. What makes you think that an engine running during pushback implies that the procedures are being disregarded or that a faulty APU means a lack of maintainance ?? Just because an APU is faulty, you expect the operator to cancell all schedule flights for the day and repair the APU when the manufacturer allows for an excemption under MEL? The fault is rectified within the stipulated time as prescribed( Usually on a night halt). It happens ALL OVER THE WORLD and not just in India.
, it is to D
You mean to say that its completely normal to run without APU in working condition? One such case is okay. But having a problem with the aircraft, extra care should be taken when such a problem occurs. End of the day, its negligence and irresponsibility at play here. I blamed the maintenance and you are blaming something else. Was it a wrong assumption of mine to say that procedures werent followed? Then who is to blame here? The pilot or the guy who died?

Mumbai is a hub for AI. Its not a remote airport where getting an alternate aircraft is a hindrance. Rather they just let the aircraft operate, until a poor life was lost. Was the situation serious only after a life was lost? This was my rant about. Things get serious only when something like this happens.

Tell me this:
1. Did the APU have a minor issue, which is common across the world? If so, then didn't they have tech personnel at Mumbai to fix it in some time?

Or

2. The issue was severe, and it would take a lot of time and resources to fix it - in this case its better to ground the aircraft.

Last edited by audioholic : 19th December 2015 at 12:03.
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Old 19th December 2015, 12:28   #468
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

[quote=audioholic;3873503]You mean to say that its completely normal to run without APU in working condition? One such case is okay. But having a problem with the aircraft, extra care should be taken when such a problem occurs. End of the day, its negligence and irresponsibility at play here. I blamed the maintenance and you are blaming something else. Was it a wrong assumption of mine to say that procedures werent followed? Then who is to blame here? The pilot or the guy who died?

Mumbai is a hub for AI. Its not a remote airport where getting an alternate aircraft is a hindrance. Rather they just let the aircraft operate, until a poor life was lost. Was the situation serious only after a life was lost? This was my rant about. Things get serious only when something like this happens.

Tell me this:
1. Did the APU have a minor issue, which is common across the world? If so, then didn't they have tech personnel at Mumbai to fix it in some time?

Or

2. The issue was severe, and it would take a lot of time and resources to fix it - in this case its better to ground the aircraft.[/quote

To answer your first question, Yes it is perfectly normal to have an unservicable APU(Not that common, but normal for sure). The engeneering team gets an idea of the fault by a BITE test and puts the aircraft under MEL. The "extent" of fault is not of concern here. Airlines run on a very tight schedule and there is just about enought time between flights for the routine stuff( Disembarking, Cleaning, Catering & Boarding again and some very routine engeening stuff like oil or hydraulic top up). If you think that there are aircrafts that are just sitting on ground and can be swapped when needed, you are mistaken my friend.

What happened in the Air India tragedy is still unknown and I would not like to comment on that.My reply to you was purely because of the shock and dismay that you seemed to have with AI pusing back with an engine running that you experienced. Also, I would like to know why you blamed the maintainance?? If your car has a mechanical issue, does that mean you are a bad owner/ operator ? Mechanical faults are inevitable but needs to be repaired within prescribed time limits. When a Boeing/ Airbus give guidance material for such fauts, it would be silly on our part to argue. You are confusing two very different things. An item being unservisable is COMPLETELY acceptable as long as it is not mandated by the manufacturer or the regulatory body. Whether the guidelines were adheared to following dispatch with the unservisable item, well thats a completely different issue.

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Old 19th December 2015, 13:06   #469
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

Slightly OT but it is tragic as to what has happened in the accident in mumbai. Preliminary investigations and the sequence of events show that there has been a loss of situational awareness amongst all the involved parties. There could have been a communication gap/misunderstanding between the captain and f/o. This of course will be ascertained when the cockpit voice recorder is analysed along with the flight data recorder. Also, the technician's position and movements can be co-analysed with the recordings and cctv footage of the apron area. This may hopefully give a clearer picture of the sequence of events.

Reading through the posts I can see that many amongst us think that an APU u/s is sort of a big deal, well it isn't as that situation is encountered frequently by pilots of all airlines in line operations and is not really (air)india specific. That particular component has an electrical generator and a pneumatic air bleed. The gen can be u/s or the bleed or both and procedures to safely operate the airplane are mandated by airplane manufacturers and airlines. These are regularly practised during simulator training sessions of the pilots as well.

My thoughts and prayers for the departed soul. May god give strength to his family.
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Old 19th December 2015, 14:40   #470
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
You mean to say that its completely normal to run without APU in working condition?.

As other members have already pointed out, yes it is perfectly normal to run without APU in working condition. you donít need the APU to fly the plane. In fact on nearly all planes, once the engines are running the APU automatically disconnects from the electrical and pneumatic grid. So even using it in emergency situations as a back up system might not be possible.


In fact if you are of a nervous disposition when it comes to aviation and flying donít read on:

Every days hundreds if not thousands of flight are carried out with certain systems partly or fully inoperable.As long as you adhere to the associated procedures and protocols nothing wrong with that.

Earlier on in this thread I explained the basics around the MEL (minimum equipment list) see http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commer...ml#post3296607

Even on the little planes I fly the same principle applies. One of our flying club planes had problems with its flaps. So we flew it for several weeks without flaps. Nothing wrong or dangerous with that, as long as you follow the associated procedures for flying without flaps. Which means mainly adhering to certain restriction for take of and landing as you will have different speeds and require more runway.



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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Not sure what aircraft you reference to when you say " opposite isolation valve" but on twins there is only ONE isolation valve, which as the name suggests, isolates the left peumatic manifold from the right.BTW, isolation valve is kept in Auto or open for ground starts and not closed. Also both Engine 1 or 2 can be started using ground air. It is common to start Engine 1 first as the Electrical power source (GPU) is normally placed on the right but in case of airports like delhi, where the aerobridge supplies the electrical power, it is not uncomman to to start engine number 2 first.
As I stated, not familiar with Airbus. I actually copied/pasted this text from one of my 747-400 manuals. Hence the opposite isolation valve. I did edit the number of engines, because on a 744 you typically fire up engine number 4 first as it also powers the number 4 hydraulic system required brake operation during towing. (initially set to Aux, ie electrically powered of course.

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Old 29th December 2015, 22:31   #471
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Another remarkable event

http://avherald.com/h?article=4917e70b&opt=0
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Old 30th December 2015, 19:03   #472
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

Although not sure if this is discussed earlier and could not find a more suitable thread so posting in this thread. I have been pretty interested in aviation and had been active on the FSX and follow all aviation threads and topics here on this forum and elsewhere. Recently bought the full version of FlightRadar24 app and been observing air traffic just out of curiosity and to gain knowledge.

Recently, I observed few weird patterns (would like to call them so as not aware what to make out). Every few days, one passenger plane takes off from the BIAL, hovers above HAL airport in Bangalore for close to 3-4 hours on average and lands back at BIAL. Since I live in the flight path of these hovers, I can vouch for the data on the app v/s what was there in reality. I have few screenshots too that show various Aircraft parameters including their registration numbers/Airlines etc. and their flight path. This activity always starts around 8 to 9 pm and end around 12 to 1 am in the night. The planes would just keep on hovering making U turns between Malur and Chikka Thirupathi on the east and around Koramangala in the west. The flight data shows starting airport as Bangalore but does not show destination and keeps hovering around FL45 to FL60. Its not the same airline always. Not posting the screenshots as not sure how safe it is to do so.

Observed around 6 to 7 such events in the past 2 months or so. Has anybody else observed it? What could it be?

Last edited by vinayrathore : 30th December 2015 at 19:09.
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Old 30th December 2015, 19:35   #473
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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Originally Posted by vinayrathore View Post

Recently, I observed few weird patterns (would like to call them so as not aware what to make out). Every few days, one passenger plane takes off from the BIAL, hovers above HAL airport in Bangalore for close to 3-4 hours on average and lands back at BIAL.

Has anybody else observed it? What could it be?
I have seen the same and me too was curious. So I got to know from one reliable source that these are Training/Test flights. I did not probe him further. So my guess would be that these are probably to accumulate flying hours for the juniors.

Also, I noticed a "decoy" callsign for a jet that landed at BIAL yesterday. (I have a screenshot too.) Most probably a biz jet, not really surprising, considering the high profile travelers in the skys and they want privacy. The call signs spurt out through the ADSB has evoked privacy and security concerns and FAA is considering encryption/dynamic ids (for each flight).

Edit: I may be wrong regarding the "decoy" call sign. I read up somewhere that it could be a new unit with unchanged callsign and could be even on a ground vehicle.

Last edited by bejoy : 30th December 2015 at 20:03.
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Old 30th December 2015, 20:22   #474
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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I have seen the same and me too was curious. So I got to know from one reliable source that these are Training/Test flights. I did not probe him further. So my guess would be that these are probably to accumulate flying hours for the juniors.
So I am not alone

If your information is correct, few questions arise out of it:
  • Why conduct training flights over area that has high population density and right above a sensitive defense airport?
  • I doubt these flights are officially approved? Though it should not be possible this way.
  • There might be other similar areas too where these occurrences are observed?
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Old 30th December 2015, 21:01   #475
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Not sure what it is but if it is between Fl45 and FL60 as you say, it is not a commercial flight. Im not sure what you would be training for flying race track pattern at that attitude. Doesn't make sense, must be something else, most likely military, the call sign should tell? Why not post it. If its ADSB data it is in the public domain anyway.

What is a decoy call sign? Call signs are subject to very strict conventions and as far as I know all call sings are in the public domain as well. Or at least you can look up a call sign, find the plane and or carrier depending on the actual sign.

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Old 31st December 2015, 00:42   #476
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Those are just training flights called FAM( Familiarization) flight. When a trainee is newly inducted, s/he is required to do 6 take off's and landings with a trainer. It is only required if you have no Jet engine experience. Pilots with certain number of Turbo Prob hours are also exempt and can do their entire training in the simulator itself.

Regarding using HAL, it works well for all concerned as HAL has all the facilities required and they charge for the facilities and for the trainee it is benefitial as there are no interruptions of commercial traffic.

It is the most fun a trainee can have if s/he is with a nice trainer. Imagine flying a 60 tonne aircraft empty and have no worry about passengers.

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Old 31st December 2015, 12:08   #477
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Those are just training flights called FAM( Familiarization) flight. When a trainee is newly inducted, s/he is required to do 6 take off's and landings with a trainer. It is only required if you have no Jet engine experience. Pilots with certain number of Turbo Prob hours are also exempt and can do their entire training in the simulator itself.

Regarding using HAL, it works well for all concerned as HAL has all the facilities required and they charge for the facilities and for the trainee it is benefitial as there are no interruptions of commercial traffic.

It is the most fun a trainee can have if s/he is with a nice trainer. Imagine flying a 60 tonne aircraft empty and have no worry about passengers.

RVD

You describe something very different. Training flights are not conducted as running race track pattern for several hours at FL45-FL60. And how many commercial airliners do you know that can reach that altitude?

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Old 31st December 2015, 12:13   #478
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You describe something very different. Training flights are not conducted as running race track pattern for several hours at FL45-FL60. And how many commercial airliners do you know that can reach that altitude?
As far as my limited knowledge goes, FL45-FL60 will mean an altitude of 4500-6000 feet. Surely all commercial airliners can reach that altitude! Did you mistake it for FL 450-600 (45,000 feet to 60,000 feet)?
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Old 31st December 2015, 12:30   #479
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As far as my limited knowledge goes, FL45-FL60 will mean an altitude of 4500-6000 feet. Surely all commercial airliners can reach that altitude! Did you mistake it for FL 450-600 (45,000 feet to 60,000 feet)?
My (stupid) mistake. If they are doing multiple landings and take offs it most likely a training flight.
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Old 31st December 2015, 12:30   #480
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Default Re: Airbus A320 Long-Term, 3 Million KMs Review

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You describe something very different. Training flights are not conducted as running race track pattern for several hours at FL45-FL60. And how many commercial airliners do you know that can reach that altitude?

Jeroen
I am sure what the OP described as FL45- FL60 is actually FL045- FL060. FL045 corresponds to 1500FT AGL for Bangalore. Thats the height to conduct visual circuits. Not sure how the OP got the altitude information as Flight Radar shows only height in feet and not altitude in flight level.

There is definitely no military activity as there are no NOTAMS to that effect.

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