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Old 21st August 2013, 12:14   #31
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant launched

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Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Since, this is a project of national importance, i hope you delivered the best quality stuff to the project and not thought of making the best possible profit from the awarded contract.
Quite surprised with this comment. Being of national importance, I am sure there are immense quality checks in place both at the steel plants and with the Indian Navy/CSL while constructing/assembling the blocks/modules.
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Old 21st August 2013, 12:19   #32
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........
The ski jump ramp on the INS Vikrant is sufficient for all the carrier launched fighters that we have planned for the next couple of decades viz. the Mig 29 and the naval LCA. Both aircraft types will be able to launch with their full combat loads i.e. a full load of weapons and fuel using the ski-jump ramp. Tests with the full combat load on a ski jump has already been done on the INS Vikramaditya which we will receive from Russia.
......
The Navy may need their next carrier to be a CATOBAR carrier, if they plan to induct variants of the HAL AMCA or the HAL/Sukhoi FGFA both of which could be ready by the time INS Vishal is ready to be commissioned, ie sometime in the middle of the 2020s.
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Old 21st August 2013, 12:32   #33
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant launched

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Originally Posted by Shome View Post
Quite surprised with this comment. Being of national importance, I am sure there are immense quality checks in place both at the steel plants and with the Indian Navy/CSL while constructing/assembling the blocks/modules.
Seems like you are quite in love with the quality of Indian products. Well, iam not. When private Indian companies like Tata's & Mahindra have no control over their QC department, what can you expect from a government department? So what, if it is a defence department. We have seen in the past MIG's and Jaguars crashing, because the spare parts were not being procured from OEM supplier, but cheaper variants built by some central asian nations (who also happen to operate similar aircrafts). In India self comes before anything else. Iam ashamed to say this, but we are a nation full of selfish people, where personal interest comes before national interest.
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Old 21st August 2013, 12:59   #34
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant launched

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
The Navy may need their next carrier to be a CATOBAR carrier, if they plan to induct variants of the HAL AMCA or the HAL/Sukhoi FGFA both of which could be ready by the time INS Vishal is ready to be commissioned, ie sometime in the middle of the 2020s.
Yes, you are correct. A CATOBAR might be needed and probably the reason why the Vishal will be bigger in size along with increased number of aircrafts. I personally would love to see a CATOBAR as it would probably give us the ability to launch Fixed Wing Early warning platforms in addition to the KA-31s


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Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Seems like you are quite in love with the quality of Indian products. Well, iam not. When private Indian companies like Tata's & Mahindra have no control over their QC department, what can you expect from a government department? So what, if it is a defence department. We have seen in the past MIG's and Jaguars crashing, because the spare parts were not being procured from OEM supplier, but cheaper variants built by some central asian nations (who also happen to operate similar aircrafts). In India self comes before anything else. Iam ashamed to say this, but we are a nation full of selfish people, where personal interest comes before national interest.
A bit of research would help with respect to the reason why I spoke about QC. The high grade steel required for the A/C was not available in India and supplies from Russia were not happening. The steel plants and research labs developed this steel inhouse. Moreover, we are talking about the IN here, one of the most professional units in the world. Name one warship manufactured in India which has had issues with respect to "Build quality" in TEAM-BHP terms. My grouse here is that you are speculating without any evidence.

As for the MIG/Jaguar crashes, can you point me to some sources where the IAF (no speculative/unknown sources please) has admitted that the crashes were due to low quality spares bought from Central Asian countries? Here's a link below from the archives about the IAFs rebuttal to these accusations.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...crashes-spares

Btw, other than India and Oman, no one else operates Jaguars anymore and no central Asian country ever operated a Jaguar.

Last edited by Shome : 21st August 2013 at 13:02.
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Old 21st August 2013, 15:36   #35
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant launched

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Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Since, this is a project of national importance, i hope you delivered the best quality stuff to the project and not thought of making the best possible profit from the awarded contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Seems like you are quite in love with the quality of Indian products. Well, iam not. When private Indian companies like Tata's & Mahindra have no control over their QC department, what can you expect from a government department? So what, if it is a defence department. We have seen in the past MIG's and Jaguars crashing, because the spare parts were not being procured from OEM supplier, but cheaper variants built by some central asian nations (who also happen to operate similar aircrafts). In India self comes before anything else. Iam ashamed to say this, but we are a nation full of selfish people, where personal interest comes before national interest.

Well Sir, with all regards to your experience/opinion with the people of this nation, I would simply like to say that such loose comments on a public forum is totally un-warranted.
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Old 21st August 2013, 18:31   #36
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant Launched

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"Since, this is a project of national importance, i hope you delivered the best quality stuff to the project and not thought of making the best possible profit from the awarded contract."
I made (or rather hoped) just a simple, small, little wish -and you guys have blown it out of proportion, as if you guys (or the comapny you work with) were really into something fishy with regards to the contract/project, and i whistleblew it.

Quote:
"As for the MIG/Jaguar crashes, can you point me to some sources where the IAF (no speculative/unknown sources please) has admitted that the crashes were due to low quality spares bought from Central Asian countries?Here's a link below from the archives about the IAFs rebuttal to these accusations. "
Here is the link http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...ghter-aircraft
Ofcourse, IAF will not say-"yes, definitely we buy cheaper parts from elsewhere as OEM ones are expensive and so what if a few planes crash because of fake spare parts". In the same link you sent, IAF officials claim they contract manufacture spare parts. So, if it is not the fake parts that are causing crashes, then it must be the contract manufactured ones-from HAL? Poor QC the culprit here, again, and answers you question
Quote:
Name one warship manufactured in India which has had issues with respect to "Build quality" in TEAM-BHP terms.
I mean are you kiddin' ? For me too, it's the media, the source of information as it is for you. I am no lokpal or CBI- so i have my information from media. My statement is wrong and yours is right- is this what you want to say? Whom are you protecting here? We both have common interests - A Nation with a Strong Defence Institution.
The comments are not loose and based upon reports in newspaper and the whole nation has read that.
Quote:
Well Sir, with all regards to your experience/opinion with the people of this nation, I would simply like to say that such loose comments on a public forum is totally un-warranted.
Seeing the current state of affairs in our country, if you still happen to make that statement, then i am sorry to say sir, you 've been sleeping for too long. Come out of your slumber, open your eyes to the India of today.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 09:42   #37
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant Launched

Although smaller than the carriers of other countries , this is all Indian and it is a thing of great pride. One has to learn to walk before running.
I do hope that this carrier and the ones to follow keep getting bigger and better. Considering that India is a recent entrant in this type of shipbuilding this is a great achievenment considering a country like US which started making carriers 100 years after their independence (Circa 1940) and it took them almost 60 yrs to get things to what they are. I am so proud of all the folks that have been toiling day and night and have bought this up to this stage. Hats of to all those engineers , architects , and all those involved. Jai Ho !!!

Just out of curiosity I wonder why we have a ski-jump runway rather than a steam catapult as the US carriers. Perhaps a diesel powered shiip cannot produce so much steam as compared to a nuclear powered carrier. I am just taking a guess here. Anyone care to enlighten me and many like me not into ships ?
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Old 22nd August 2013, 10:15   #38
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant Launched

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Originally Posted by ambivalent_98 View Post
Although smaller than the carriers of other countries , this is all Indian and it is a thing of great pride. One has to learn to walk before running.
I do hope that this carrier and the ones to follow keep getting bigger and better. Considering that India is a recent entrant in this type of shipbuilding this is a great achievenment considering a country like US which started making carriers 100 years after their independence (Circa 1940) and it took them almost 60 yrs to get things to what they are. I am so proud of all the folks that have been toiling day and night and have bought this up to this stage. Hats of to all those engineers , architects , and all those involved. Jai Ho !!!

Just out of curiosity I wonder why we have a ski-jump runway rather than a steam catapult as the US carriers. Perhaps a diesel powered shiip cannot produce so much steam as compared to a nuclear powered carrier. I am just taking a guess here. Anyone care to enlighten me and many like me not into ships ?
The INS Vikrant is actually not that small. Among the current aircraft carriers in service, only the USA, China and Russia have aircraft carriers which are heavier than the INS Vikrant. Among these both China and Russia are navies which operate a single carrier, and are likely to remain with 1 carrier for about 7-10 years to come. India on the other hand will have 2 after the end of this year.

Similarly among the carriers being built, only the UK and USA are building carriers larger than the INS Vikrant. China "may" also be building/planning larger carriers. And lets not forget India too is planning its next aircraft carrier, which will be similar in size to what the British or the Chinese are thinking of.

As for why India did not opt for a CATOBAR carrier is most likley because the kind of aircraft the Navy was looking to operate, would be able to do so by using a simple ski-jump arrangement. With the Navy looking to operate larger aircraft in the future off its carrier decks, the next carrier is planned to be equipped with catapults.

Last edited by julupani : 22nd August 2013 at 10:17.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 13:45   #39
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant Launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
I made (or rather hoped) just a simple, small, little wish -and you guys have blown it out of proportion, as if you guys (or the comapny you work with) were really into something fishy with regards to the contract/project, and i whistleblew it.

Here is the link http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...ghter-aircraft
Ofcourse, IAF will not say-"yes, definitely we buy cheaper parts from elsewhere as OEM ones are expensive and so what if a few planes crash because of fake spare parts". In the same link you sent, IAF officials claim they contract manufacture spare parts. So, if it is not the fake parts that are causing crashes, then it must be the contract manufactured ones-from HAL? Poor QC the culprit here, again, and answers you question I mean are you kiddin' ? For me too, it's the media, the source of information as it is for you. I am no lokpal or CBI- so i have my information from media. My statement is wrong and yours is right- is this what you want to say? Whom are you protecting here? We both have common interests - A Nation with a Strong Defence Institution.
The comments are not loose and based upon reports in newspaper and the whole nation has read that.
Seeing the current state of affairs in our country, if you still happen to make that statement, then i am sorry to say sir, you 've been sleeping for too long. Come out of your slumber, open your eyes to the India of today.
At the risk of going off topic and attracting the ire of the mods, this is going to be my last post in this matter.

Chaud2hs, all you are doing is justifying without understanding the crux of the matter. An analogy, I hope I am able to convey my opinion accurately. Lets say you have 2 neighbors. Neighbor A has been convicted of murder and is in jail waiting to be hanged and neighbor B is just like every other normal Indian citizen. Based on the fact that neighbor A is a convicted murderer, will you assume that neighbor B is a murderer as well and make a statement in public that "I hope that you are not a murderer?" I guess not. Your statement in your first post did exactly that, speculated without evidence.

Secondly, if you think that IAF will put lives of pilots at risk by buying fake parts, then I don't know what to say other than no defense force will ever do that. Beats the whole purpose of having a defense force, doesn't it?

Mig crashes were the most frequent in the late 90s and early 2000. Look at the number of hours/year migs flew, calculate the no. of crashes/hours flown and then compare the data with other professional airforces like the US, France, Germany. You will be surprised with the answer that you get.

Thirdly, contract manufacturing doesn't mean fake or low quality parts that lead to crashes. How about reading through some CAG reports. Those are generally considered as unbiased and accurate.

Finally, its not about my statement is right or yours is wrong. For all you know, you might be absolutely accurate and I am totally wrong. All I am saying is point me in the right direction. The main reasons according to me for all the Mig crashes all these years are definitely not spurious parts but a combination of aging airframe, training or the lack of it (no AJT till the Hawks were inducted recently) and the extremely high flying rate. There is a forum called Bharat-rakshak which is a treasure trove of information for Indian and world defence just like TeamBHP, non profit and unbiased.

Also, another request is to quote properly because some of us have subscribed to close to 100 threads and if not quoted, then we do not know that we have had responses to our posts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ambivalent_98 View Post
Just out of curiosity I wonder why we have a ski-jump runway rather than a steam catapult as the US carriers. Perhaps a diesel powered shiip cannot produce so much steam as compared to a nuclear powered carrier. I am just taking a guess here. Anyone care to enlighten me and many like me not into ships ?
CATOBARS are expensive, need additional boilers and are generally big. India till now also did not have any fighters which required catapults. Future aircrafts like the FGFA and naval AMCA will need catapults. As you rightly said, walk before you run. Hence, Ski Jumps for now and CATOBARS for the future.
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Old 30th August 2013, 20:11   #40
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant launched

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Originally Posted by Sommos View Post
Good to know that you have a Bhilai connection.
I'm not aware the year you were in Bhilai, but Bhilai has a Plate Mill that produces heavy plates used in manufacture of boilers, pressure vessels & storage tanks and ship building including DMR249A grade for Naval ships on a regular basis. However, this was a special project where BSP came forward for the manufacture of the special quality steel required by DMRL.
Thanks. I recall now about the plate mill---i think it was in the expansion project back then in 1981. BTW, I got married in Bhilai too, in 1987.

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Originally Posted by Wind View Post
SAIL's plants at Bhilai, Rourkela, Bokaro and Durgapur have contributed towards the manufacturing of Vikrant.

Source: http://www.ajaishukla.blogspot.in/20...f-vikrant.html

The above article is a good read. Of particular interest is the how the project specifications evolved over time.

-- Wind
Yes, the letter I got from my brother in SAIL indicates this. There is a telecast tomorrow too. Here's the email:

"Dear Madam/Sir,

You would be aware that first indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant has
been launched on 2nd August '13 by Indian Navy which has been built with
steel entirely supplied by SAIL. More than 26,000 tonnes of special grade
steel has gone into making of this steel which has been developed by SAIL
and Defence Metallurgical Research Lab of DRDO in association. This is a
milestone not only for Indian Navy in self-reliance in warship building but
also for SAIL which took the challenge of making of this grade of steel
from thickness ranging between 3.15 mm to 80 mm.
Our Steel Plants at Bhilai, Bokaro, Rourkela and Alloy Steel Plants at
Durgapur rose to the immense challenges in making of this steel and
displayed tremendous synergy along with Defence Coordination Cell, CMO of
SAIL who relentlessly coordinated amongst Indian Navy, DRDO and Plants.
It is a matter of pride that our achievements are being highlighted not only
Indian Navy but also by the entire national media.

In continuation to the above, NDTV, India is telecasting SAIL's effort
in their programme called Vatan Ke Rakh-Wale. The schedule is given below.
You are requested to watch the programme along with your families, friends
and stakeholders.

TIME OF TELECAST
31.8.2013 3.30 PM
31.8.2013 9.30 PM
1.9.2013 9.30 AM

Regards,"
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Old 30th August 2013, 22:25   #41
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant Launched

Some more pictures of Vikrant at the launch celebration.
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Old 31st August 2013, 16:42   #42
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant launched

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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
Thanks. I recall now about the plate mill---i think it was in the expansion project back then in 1981. BTW, I got married in Bhilai too, in 1987.



Yes, the letter I got from my brother in SAIL indicates this. There is a telecast tomorrow too. Here's the email:

"Dear Madam/Sir,

You would be aware that first indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant has
been launched on 2nd August '13 by Indian Navy which has been built with
steel entirely supplied by SAIL. More than 26,000 tonnes of special grade
steel has gone into making of this steel which has been developed by SAIL
and Defence Metallurgical Research Lab of DRDO in association. This is a
milestone not only for Indian Navy in self-reliance in warship building but
also for SAIL which took the challenge of making of this grade of steel
from thickness ranging between 3.15 mm to 80 mm.
Our Steel Plants at Bhilai, Bokaro, Rourkela and Alloy Steel Plants at
Durgapur rose to the immense challenges in making of this steel and
displayed tremendous synergy along with Defence Coordination Cell, CMO of
SAIL who relentlessly coordinated amongst Indian Navy, DRDO and Plants.
It is a matter of pride that our achievements are being highlighted not only
Indian Navy but also by the entire national media.

In continuation to the above, NDTV, India is telecasting SAIL's effort
in their programme called Vatan Ke Rakh-Wale. The schedule is given below.
You are requested to watch the programme along with your families, friends
and stakeholders.

TIME OF TELECAST
31.8.2013 3.30 PM
31.8.2013 9.30 PM
1.9.2013 9.30 AM

Regards,"
So you were an MTA at Bhilai back in '81. Yes the Plate Mill was commissioned in late 1986 or 1987 under the 4MTPA project.

Do you still visit Bhilai? Would really love to meet in person.

Thanks for intimating the telecast news on the forum (if anybody would be interested).
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Old 3rd September 2013, 00:37   #43
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant Launched

The INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya from 2018 onwards will provide India with a formidable presence in the Indian Ocean Region. These ships will be armed with the superb 4.5 Generation Mig 29K Fighters who can blow up enemy fighters as easily as the they will blow up enemy ships at sea. They are also supremely capable of attacking targets on land if the need so arises. These carriers will never operate alone, they will always have an escort of one destroyer(either the Kolkata Class or the Delhi Class), two to three destroyers( either the Project 17A or Shivalik Class or the Talwar Class Frigates), an antisubmarine Kamorta Class Corvette, a fleet tanker and they will have a forward deployed submarine to sweep the area for enemy presence( subs include the Kilo Class or the the Scorpene Class(2017 onwards) or the project 75I Class of AIP equipped SSK's 2022 onwards or lets pray for it may be a SSN armed with cruise missiles. . These ships armed with Bramhos 1 and 2(2020 onwards), Nirbhay cruise missile , Buk, Barak and Shtil missile will provide a proverbial iron dome to the battle group.

In the long run Indian Navy plans on having 6 aircraft battle groups along with 5-6 battle groups built around large amphibious assault ships. That will make Indian Navy the Dada of IOR. Lets pray Delhi spends less on scams and more on making equipment for our Knights in Shining armour.

The INS Vishal is going to be a large 65000-70000 tonne aircraft carrier with steam or electromagnetic catapults(USA is currently testing them for the Gerald R Ford Class super carriers). This will give the ship ability to carry fully loaded medium to heavy fighters and also airborne radar picket aircraft like the E-2D Hawkeye from USA and maybe who knows, even unmanned combat aircraft. The carriers beyond the INS Vishal are planned to have nuclear propulsion for its obvious benefits like large electric load and virtually unlimited range. IN has experience in building naval reactors now that we have the INS Arihant out in the sea.
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Old 15th November 2013, 10:09   #44
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Default Re: New INS Vikrant Launched

I read news report that INS Vikramaditya will be docking first at Kochin on way from Russia. Does anyone have a rough timeline when it will be reaching Kochin.

Was fancying to drive down to Kochin to get a glimpse of the same.
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Old 15th November 2013, 11:34   #45
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I read news report that INS Vikramaditya will be docking first at Kochin on way from Russia. Does anyone have a rough timeline when it will be reaching Kochin.

Was fancying to drive down to Kochin to get a glimpse of the same.
You can probably expect a mid-December arrival in India.

The normal route would be via the North Sea, English Channel, Gibraltar Strait, Mediterranean sea, Suez Canal, Red Sea past the Horn of Africa into the Arabian Sea. This is route is also has very heavy commercial shipping traffic too.
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