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Old 26th November 2014, 10:17   #16
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Default Re: Tata Cummins Engine: TCIC to common-rail upgrade?

Cummins engine was first introduced in 1312 TC bus chassis in the mid 1990s, in NA form. Later, it was introduced in trucks as well, with different power ratings. At that time, Tata decided to discontinue 697 and if I remember correctly, its production was halted. However, this coincided with a downturn in the market. Cummins equipped CVs costed more. Tata's vendors for 697 also put pressure for continuing the engine. It was then decided continue with 697 after upgrading it with Cummins' help. And so it continues till date, 50 years after its introduction in Germany in 1964 as OM 352. It was the first DI engine of Mercedes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by george_kj View Post
There is no logical reason to change to a Common rail fuel injection system...
Actually, there is. You need CRDI system to ensure compliance with the new emission norms. Europe shifted to CRDI when Euro-III norms were introduced. In 2010, when time came to introduce Euro-III/BS-III in India (I'm talking about non-metros where 90+% CV sales take place), it was decided to take the non-CRDI route in view of Indian fuel quality and service station conditions. The engine was redesigned but injection system was kept mechanical. However, achieving BS-IV without CRDI technology is difficult.

Last edited by directinjection : 26th November 2014 at 10:30.
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Old 26th November 2014, 10:47   #17
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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post


Actually, there is. You need CRDI system to ensure compliance with the new emission norms. Europe shifted to CRDI when Euro-III norms were introduced. In 2010, when time came to introduce Euro-III/BS-III in India (I'm talking about non-metros where 90+% CV sales take place), it was decided to take the non-CRDI route in view of Indian fuel quality and service station conditions. The engine was redesigned but injection system was kept mechanical. However, achieving BS-IV without CRDI technology is difficult.
Thanks for the info...I meant there is no logical reason for Mr Joseph to convert his engine to CR...

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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
. However, achieving BS-IV without CRDI technology is difficult.
I would say achieving BS-IV emissions with a electronic/mechanical FIE and with out any after treatment aid will be difficult...

I would imagine with a well designed after treatment system , good turbo charger(more air) engine could meet BS-IV. But the challenges would be higher operating costs due to the after treatment fluids(urea etc) and also added system level complexities(space , weight etc)..

Last edited by Aditya : 27th November 2014 at 10:45. Reason: Merging back to back posts
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Old 27th November 2014, 17:36   #18
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Default Re: Tata Cummins Engine: TCIC to common-rail upgrade?

Hello all,

Thanks for all the replies. I am sorry for not being able to reply to the thread earlier as I was having issues with doing so on my phone while travelling.

Few points regarding why i raised this query.

1) Efficiency: CRDI is definitely a newer and more efficient technology. Virtually all diesel passenger vehicles come with the newer technology. In my humble experience between the Scorpio DI (First Iteration) and mHawk CRDI, the difference in mileage is was 2kmpl (10kmpl M2DI vs 12 kmpl mHawk). And this was with the mHawk being an Automatic.

2) Emissions have definitely reduced and the technology make cars run cleaner which helps the environment.

3) Fuel quality is not really an issue for me as my trucks refuel at a COMCO (Company Owned Company Maintained Outlet) directly attached to the Mangalore Refinery. Four Years ago there was an issue with water in my fuel tanks. The company immediately installed new tanks at the outlets along with newest avaialable dispensers and the problem was solved. Mangalore's Heavy rains were aparently to blame.

My scenario:

Each Truck Runs 7k-9k km per month. My fuel mileage I get in both variety of trucks (Tata 1613 697 and Tata 1613 Cummins) is approx 3.5 kmpl in my six wheel trucks as opposed to the claimed Tata standard of 4.25 - 4.5 kmpl. This has been attributed to the bad Ghat Road which the trucks traverse daily and is in line with other collegues who run similar trucks.

The reason I embarked on researching the retrofit / upgrade was because two of my trucks have clocked almost 5 Lakh km each and are due for Reconditioned Engines.

Arvind Motors provides Reconditioned Engines (like for like) for about Rs. 80K for the Block + any other parts are replaced during the process. The take back the old engine of course. The last three times this was done, the final bills were in the range of 1.0 Lakh - 1.5 Lakh. The higher amount owing to a cracked engine block.
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Old 27th November 2014, 18:08   #19
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Default Re: Tata Cummins Engine: TCIC to common-rail upgrade?

@Steeroid - Unfortunately, Buying new trucks seemed like the only option until I saw a Tata Prime double axle at the dealership with the Cabin hinged forward. It had a Cummins ISBe 230 HP engine that looked eerily similar to the 6 Cylinder Cummins engine on my truck except that it had a CRDI System with High Pressure Fuel Injection System and more electronics. And the Cab looks fabulous of course. The problem is that HCV's generally depreciate heavily as soon as they leave the showroom. I was forced into Transportation as no private party was willing to do it at the rates paid by our principal. So replacing the entire fleet did not make sense for me at this point.

I guess i will have to rule out a retrofit which seems like a lot of work and cost for the intended result as pointed out in the previous posts. Also finding an expert in the field who will be able to undertake such an effort has been hard to find for me.

Having stated my scenario in my previous post and reading all the comments by senior members, I would like to request your opinions / views on the following.

Assuming that there will be 10-20% improvement in efficiency, the savings will definitely pay for an engine upgrade. Assuming that even if I get 10% mileage increase I would be save Rs. 11000 per month which will help pay for an engine upgrade + additional maintenance over a three year period. And in all this I will be reducing all the harmful emissions that these old engines throw up every day.

So yes, this is part of my business but undertaking such an upgrade is more on the hobbyist side with some marginal Financial / Environmental thought.

So it seems I am left with two options.

1) Buy new 697 CR engines somehow from Tata and find an outside agency to fit them on my existing trucks. I definitely hope I find some expert through the forum who will be willing to undertake such a project. My Tata Dealer will not sell me brand new 697 CR engines and being that they have been in the market only two years, I dont think there will be engines available yet in Tata's Recon Program. I did enquire with the service advisors and they had not even thought of the 697 CR Recon cause nobody has actually come forward to recondition such an engine.

2) Find new / used Cummins ISBe 160 HP engine and replace the existing engines on my trucks. I will still need to find an expert and I am guessing I will need to look outside Karnataka. Most likely Pune or Coimbatore. I hope some senior member would be able to guide me.

I do see that on the Cummins website that there are 4 Cylinder (140-210BHP) and 6 Cylinder (160-310BHP) Options. However, with me limited resources I am unable to figure out what the Torque Limits for the Transmission and Differential are. Also, which engines will actually fit.

I am hoping that some senior members will be able to guide me in which direction I should pursue or whether I should pursue such an exercise at all.
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Old 27th November 2014, 22:19   #20
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Default Re: Tata Cummins Engine: TCIC to common-rail upgrade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
And so it continues till date, 50 years after its introduction in Germany in 1964 as OM 352. It was the first DI engine of Mercedes.
It's a 50 year old engine?? Wow.. That I did not know.

Is this also true for the Cummins engines being fitted in the Prime line of trucks??

Although the demo 1613 Cr was supposed to reach the dealership on monday, it still hasn't arrived.
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