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Old 5th March 2015, 15:41   #16
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Excellent writeup and very nice pics compilation.
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Old 5th March 2015, 16:22   #17
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

This is the pinnacle of bhp's if I may say so. What a fascinating article. Enjoyed reading every bit of it.

Rated a well deserved 5*
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Old 5th March 2015, 19:57   #18
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Another awesome post! your posts are unbelievably well put together bringing history alive. I share this same sort of fascination for military weapons and machinery but weaving this together into such a wonderful write up is unbelievable. Right now when our indian defense sector is heating up with Make in India, this sort of a post will be a yarstick to measure our progress. We have missed opportunities in the past but also made progress against odds. I hope our industry picks up pace and we do produce some good hardware (along global standards and exportable)
Also there is a dearth of information about our offshore patrol vessels and patrol boats that india makes in the public domain. Can you shed some light on these boats.
We do have come a long way from the Leander to the Kolkata class but still cant we come up with something like the Horizon Class with proper long range fleet defense.

Again Waiting for more such beautiful posts. Thank you for your effort in putting together such wonderful threads for us.
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Old 5th March 2015, 20:21   #19
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Thanks for this wonderful thread V. Narayan.

I got the time to read your extensive thread only today.

I find military history very interesting. I used to read up a lot on World War II during my school days. Especially on planes, ships and tanks. My father used to bring me such books from the UK after his visits there. But there were very few material on Indian military and it remained alien to me.
Now due to dearth of time, I rely on the Internet and You Tube to satisfy my craving.

Being in Kochi, we often go to Willingdon Island during weekends. My son and I ogle at the ships at the naval base there. In fact, the Venduruthy bridge gives a real good view of the base.
In early 2012, I was attending a conference in a hotel on MG Road. Looking out of a window during a tea break, I saw what I thought looked like the bow (if it can be called that) of an aircraft carrier. I quickly whisked out my phone to take a picture. I almost missed the writing in bold on the window - PHOTOGRAPHY PROHIBITED. A colleague quickly pointed to me the CCTV camera above the window. I sheepishly grinned at it and very obviously placed the phone back into my pocket. This, my colleague then told me, was the INS Vikrant under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, which was completely out of bounds.

I was thrilled to see it in person and didn't known it was so close by all along. There was a (relatively) small private yacht under construction next to it. This made its humongous size even more apparent.

Indian navy is now ranked 8th in the world in number of ships and (please correct me if I am wrong) 5th in overall firepower.

This thread just renewed an old interest and instilled in me a new sense of patriotism.

Thanks a lot again and keep these coming.
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Old 5th March 2015, 22:38   #20
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Quote:
Originally Posted by shantonob View Post
Also there is a dearth of information about our offshore patrol vessels and patrol boats that india makes in the public domain. Can you shed some light on these boats.
We do have come a long way from the Leander to the Kolkata class but still cant we come up with something like the Horizon Class with proper long range fleet defense.

Again Waiting for more such beautiful posts. Thank you for your effort in putting together such wonderful threads for us.
Dear Shantonob, I would be thrilled to put together a piece on our Coastguard. They are a fine service and don't yet occupy the public mindspace they deserve. And as the Exclusive Economic Zone becomes more and more important, with each passing decade, the role of our Coastguard gets bigger and more vital. I have some historical photos of the Coastguard in my old books. Time to use them. Thank you for your kind appreciation which has also been expressed by other brother BHPians -it touches me and encourages the boy in me!

The Horizon class is in a league by itself as are the US Navy Aegis class vessels. But for us the introduction of Indo-Israeli long range Barak Surface to Air Missiles and Indo-Russian Brahmos Surface to Surface missiles, from the Kolkatta class onwards, should fully suffice. The weapon needs to be adequate with reference to the adversary. This the Barak & Brahmos fully are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psispace View Post
This, my colleague then told me, was the INS Vikrant under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, which was completely out of bounds.

...Indian navy is now ranked 8th in the world in number of ships and (please correct me if I am wrong) 5th in overall firepower.
Dear Psispace, Some drawings of what Vikrant II will look like, released recently by the directorate of Naval Design, for your leisure. On the size of the Navy I could write separately with details. Unlike an army a navy is more a qualitative measure than a measure of numbers. Hence very difficult to compare. In terms of sheer tonnage the list in descending order is (1) USA, (2) Russia, (3) China, (4) Japan, (5) India, South Korea, UK, France are almost at par. In terms of fire power I would put us 7th on this list tied with South Korea after USA, Russia, China, France, UK, Japan in that order. This is strictly my personal opinion.


Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-vikrant-ii-.jpg

Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-vikrant-ii-b.jpg

Vikrant II - 40,000 tonnes, 265 metres long, 12 degree ski jump, 100,000 shp gas turbines, 28knots top speed (52 kmph); ~30 aircraft like Mig-29K
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Old 6th March 2015, 02:19   #21
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

A fundamental question - Why do some aircraft carriers (British, Russian) have the ramp for take-off where as American carriers do not.
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Old 6th March 2015, 09:53   #22
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

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Originally Posted by vipulbatta View Post
A fundamental question - Why do some aircraft carriers (British, Russian) have the ramp for take-off where as American carriers do not.
There are two ways of launching an aircraft off the deck of a carrier. The first and the older method is a steam catapult which accelerates (literally like tossing) the aircraft to a speed of 200 to 250 kmph in a distance of 75 to 100 metres. That is the system the Americans and the French use and the Brazilians have it on an ex-French carrier, the Sao Paulo. A more complete explanation of how a steam catapult works is on Team BHP at http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commer...dian-navy.html


The second method is to have a ramp with a continuously increasing curvature. This is a simpler system with no mechanical or electronic parts but can be used only by aircraft with a high thrust to weight ratio typically 0.80:1.00 or better. It cannot be used by slower moving or lower thrust:weight ratio machines. The ramp was invented by the British (as were the steam catapults) and the exact curvature has a lot of detailed mathematics behind it. A young Royal Navy officer Lieutenant Commander David Taylor invented the design. The ramp flings the aircraft upwards into the air very much like a flat stone that you toss in a pond at a flat angle and it goes skipping up on hitting the water.


The steam catapults offer more flexibility but are large and complex to operate and reduce the space below the flight deck available for the hangar - today (I believe) steam catapults are manufactured only by the Americans. The ramp is simple but with less flexibility and leaves more room below deck for storage & repair of aircraft. So which model you use is a function of the kind of aircraft you plan to use and whether you can buy steam catapults from the Americans without risk of embargos. Carriers in India, China, Spain, Italy, UK use the ramp.


Photo showing the Harrier at the instant of leaving the ramp (in this case a ground test & training rig). The curvature of the ramp imparts an acceleration to the aircraft (remember physics - a body turning in a circle is accelerating) that enables it to build airspeed in the 2 seconds after exiting the ramp.

Hope this helps.
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Old 6th March 2015, 10:02   #23
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipulbatta View Post
A fundamental question - Why do some aircraft carriers (British, Russian) have the ramp for take-off where as American carriers do not.
AFAIK all the American carriers which are Nimitz class super carriers is based on CATOBAR or Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery. These are generally designed to carry heavy aircrafts carrying heavy loads such as F-18 super hornet, E2C-Hawkeye.

Whereas carriers of Russian Navy are based on STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery). In technical terms these are compatible only for those aircrafts which has higher thrust to weight ratio. These carriers will be having lighter aircraft which carry higher payload. INS Vikramaditya belongs to this class.

I don`t know much about UK Navy, but as far as I remember they used to have STOVL(short take-off and vertical landing) based carriers which supported Sea Harriers. But of late they have decommissioned such type of carriers and soon they will be having Queen Elizabeth class supercarrier which is again STOVL based carrier supporting F35C VTOL aircrafts. INS Viraat belongs to this class. May be Narayan sir can add more on this.

Last edited by DragonHawk : 6th March 2015 at 10:17.
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Old 6th March 2015, 12:53   #24
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post

Vikrant II - 40,000 tonnes, 265 metres long, 12 degree ski jump, 100,000 shp gas turbines, 28knots top speed (52 kmph); ~30 aircraft like Mig-29K
Narayan Sir, thanks for the pics.

Luckily we guys in Kochin can see Vikrant on the yard by simply driving through MG Road. Thanks to the open parking area of Hotel Mercy.

We can easily see the Ramp and the tall structure which includes, the bridge, radars, etc. I read somewhere that it should be equivalent to a 15-20 storey building.

Added to the above, where you able to get any drafts of INS Vishal, trust the design phase of the CATOBAR type carrier is done. With 60,000 tonnes that would be a moving fortress literally.
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Old 6th March 2015, 14:09   #25
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

A wonderful and informative write up!

As for the steam catapult and the ramp designs for launching aircraft, I read somewhere that the Americans use the former because they can launch larger aircraft with more weapons pay load, and heavily armed. The ramp design supposedly limits the size of aircraft used. Is that true?
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Old 6th March 2015, 19:18   #26
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

An awesome and informative travelogue sir. Hats Off to you for your sea of knowledge and the wonderful, systematic way in which you have put it through for everyone's benefit.

I would like to bring forth an observation.
The Leander Class Frigates (the Giri Class) were initially INS Himgiri, INS Udaygiri and INS Dunagiri.
The modified Leanders were not called Godavari Class. Two ships came along in that: INS Vindhyagiri being the first, followed by INS Taragiri. They were known more as an offshoot of the Giri Class and were known as Vindhyagiri Class.
Though the Vindhyagiris were intended to operate Seaking ASW helicopters, the project did not take off well. Therefore, the ships continued to operate Chetak helicopters instead. Towards 2005- 2007, both ships' hangars were modified to house operating stations for UAVs to extend its range. From then, embarked helicopter operations also stopped; limiting helicopter operations to "stage through" (i.e, operations where the helicopter was not housed inside the hangar).

The latest of the frigates are ofcourse the Shivalik Class.
In the photo below, is captured INS Sahyadri of the same class.

Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-dscn7177.jpg

The classification of ships which you gave are correct to my knowledge (Aircraft carrier, frigates, destroyers etc..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Photo of INS Viraat tipping the scales at 28,000 tonnes.
Tipping the scale these days is INS Vikramaditya at 33,440 tons.
I take the liberty to add a few snaps. Hope you won't mind.

Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-vkd-1.jpg

Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-vkd-2.jpg

Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-vkd-3.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Next come corvettes which are powerfully armed vessels for limited endurance and coastal work.
The latest corvette of the Indian Navy is INS Kamorta.
Pictured below is a column formation comprising two missile boats, INS Kirpan, INS Kulish followed by INS Sahyadri, INS Kora and INS Ranvir (in that order)

Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-dscn8327.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonHawk View Post
I don`t know much about UK Navy, but as far as I remember they used to have STOVL(short take-off and vertical landing) based carriers which supported Sea Harriers. But of late they have decommissioned such type of carriers and soon they will be having Queen Elizabeth class supercarrier which is again STOVL based carrier supporting F35C VTOL aircrafts.
DragonHawk, INS Vikramaditya was actualy not made to a dedicated aircraft carrier. It was a helicopter carrying cruiser. When India signed the deal to take it over, the ramp was built for our requirements removing the InterContinental Ballistic Missiles which were placed in that position.

Have a look at the ship before it was modified:

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And now:

Name:  vkd now.jpg
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UK is on its way to de-commission all its carrier projects.
AFAIK, there was a resolution which was passed in the House of People through which the decision was reached upon. I don't think the Queen Elizabeth Super Carrier will see the light of day.

The carrier is a great tool of power projection; but, what remains unsaid is the humongous logistics which is required to keep these monsters running afoot. An aircraft carrier is almost a floating city and for it to function properly, it needs a host of other ships for its defence.

Last edited by dhanushmenon : 6th March 2015 at 19:28.
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Old 6th March 2015, 19:48   #27
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonHawk View Post

I don`t know much about UK Navy, but as far as I remember they used to have STOVL(short take-off and vertical landing) based carriers which supported Sea Harriers. But of late they have decommissioned such type of carriers and soon they will be having Queen Elizabeth class supercarrier which is again STOVL based carrier supporting F35C VTOL aircrafts.

Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-3a.jpg

Dear DragonHawk, you are correct about the British building 2 of the Queen Elizabeth class to a Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing design. Photo shows the Queen Elizabeth under construction with the prominent take off ramp on the fore of the ship. their earlier 3 Harrier Carriers have been put into mothballs for reasons of budgets I suppose. The Queen Elizabeth class too have faced budget problems and their fate keeps swinging. If all goes well they the first may enter service in 2017.


Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjim13 View Post
Added to the above, where you able to get any drafts of INS Vishal, trust the design phase of the CATOBAR type carrier is done. With 60,000 tonnes that would be a moving fortress literally.
Dear @peterjim13, I have no facts on the proposed INS Vishal other than the speculation on the internet. The ship has not been laid down yet. In my opinion it would be more sensible to make an incremental improvement on the Vikrant II design for the second ship than attempt a huge leap and be still building it in 2035. But this is just a common citizens view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
As for the steam catapult and the ramp designs for launching aircraft, I read somewhere that the Americans use the former because they can launch larger aircraft with more weapons pay load, and heavily armed. The ramp design supposedly limits the size of aircraft used. Is that true?

Dear Gansan, great to meet a fellow BHPian in his 50s! What you read is right a steam catapult by making it really powerful can be designed to launch aircraft of up to 33 to 35 tonnes weight or more routinely even if the aircraft does not have a great power to weight ratio.

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Photo shows the 27 tonne propeller driven Grumman Hawkeye aerial surveillance propeller driven aircraft taking off from a US carrier.


Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-3c.jpg

This second photo shows a good old Breguet Alize anti submarine patrol aircraft of the Indian Navy taking off from the old INS Vikrant with the aid of a steam catapult. This cannot be done from a ramp. However if the power to weight ratio is good enough a 33 tonne Sukhoi Su-30 can take off from a ramp which is comparable to the heaviest American naval aircraft in regular use (till recently) the Grumman F-14 Tomcat which tipped the scales at 33 tonnes too. With the combat jets of today one doesn’t offer an over arching improvement over the other though steam catapults offer greater flexibility. One reason the Americans prefer catapults is because they know how to build really big carriers of over 100,000 tonnes. The catapult enables them to launch 4 aircraft in quick succession within 30 seconds of each other. A ramp can at most launch 2 in quick succession.


Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-3e-chakra-ii.jpg
As Dhanush Menon points out Carriers are power projection assets. They inspire awe and respect. But......
The one shark all carriers fear is the one they struggle to detect - the submarine. INS Chakra, nuclear powered submarine on lease from Russia.
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Old 6th March 2015, 22:22   #28
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushmenon View Post
DragonHawk, INS Vikramaditya was actualy not made to a dedicated aircraft carrier. It was a helicopter carrying cruiser. When India signed the deal to take it over, the ramp was built for our requirements removing the InterContinental Ballistic Missiles which were placed in that position.
Yes I completely agree with you. Admiral Gorshkov(aka Baku) was a mixed breed of conventional aircraft carriers and heavy cruisers. It saw limited operation of Soviet`s version of sea harriers Yak38 and other fixed winged aircrafts. During refitting flight deck configuration was changed to STOBAR arrangement and INS Vikramaditya was commissioned under this configuration.

Since we are talking about aircraft carrier I would like to mention about Carrier Battle Group (CVBG). A carrier battle group generally consists of an aircraft carrier, two guided missile cruisers- these are generally offensive ships carrying cruise missiles, two destroyers- defensive ships which can defend attacks by submarine and aircrafts , one frigate- as you are aware these are used for anti submarine warfare, 2 submarines-defensive roles to attack submarines and warships and the last one is a supply vessel which generally carry food, fuel and ammunition for the group.

Of-course CVBG generally vary across navies worldwide. Indian navy has been operating one such since 1961. As of today it has 2 such groups in existence. The new carrier battle group centered on Vikramaditya consists of Kolkata class destroyers, Shivalik and Talwar class frigates, Kamorta class anti submarine warfare corvette and one support vessel. I assume SSN Chakra II may fill the gap of submarine.

Just to let you know how a battle group looks like, you can refer to the below image of US Navy battle group centered on USS Midway.
Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra-battle_group_alpha_midway_iowa_underway_1987.jpg

Last edited by DragonHawk : 6th March 2015 at 22:34.
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Old 7th March 2015, 13:42   #29
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Default Re: Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra

Excellent write up sir. Gave us an insight of the silent but dramatic achievements by our officers. Feeling happy to know that my relative is ASWO in INS arihant.

Last edited by GTO : 10th March 2015 at 17:05. Reason: Removing unnecessary comment
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Old 7th March 2015, 18:05   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushmenon View Post
Tipping the scale these days is INS Vikramaditya at 33,440 tons.
Dhanush, just a quick qery. i thought Vikramaditya was of 44,000 tonnes in displacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Dear @peterjim13, I have no facts on the proposed INS Vishal other than the speculation on the internet. The ship has not been laid down yet. In my opinion it would be more sensible to make an incremental improvement on the Vikrant II design for the second ship than attempt a huge leap and be still building it in 2035. But this is just a common citizens view.
Hi Narayan sir,

I have been following idrw.org & defencenews.in for quite some time and this is what I learned.

http://idrw.org/archives/58573

The above articles talks about the possible tie up with US for EMALS Technology (Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System)for INS Vishal is proposed to be a 65,000 tonne CATOBAR Carrier.

And as INS Viraat is due for retirement next year, it seems the project has received a lot of push from the Mod/Navy as the website/TOI sources suggest.

I think that would be only after INS Vikrant II.

Will surely add more content to the same as I get more info.

Last edited by Zappo : 2nd July 2015 at 14:20. Reason: Consecutive posts merged
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