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Old 11th July 2017, 20:18   #106
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by peterjim13 View Post
I think for us to take care of both the Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal - 2 is a must for our Navy. I do see that we might get the 3rd one the coming decade.
Nice to hear from you again.

I agree with you that eventually we should have 3 carriers. That would be an ideal number. Beyond that would be an overkill and merely muscle strutting for the sake of it. 3 would mean = one at sea on a long deployment/flag cruise + one at stand by/training/exercise + one under maintenance. That day, in my estimate is probably 2035 especially if the Indian Navy decides to start with a new larger design. If they do a sister ship to Vikrant II then maybe 2030. By then INS Vikramaditya would be very long in the tooth. One possibility given our growing proximity to the Americans is that they lease us one of their through deck amphibious carriers and we fly F-35s V/STOL jets off them. Just day dreaming.
Quote:
What according to you would be the main role for our 3rd and larger Aircraft Carrier
The threats of today and the future it seems will be from organized non-State actors and certain rougue states who will carve their place on the world stage by being exporters of terrorism and dirty weapons. As this is not a political forum I wont name them but you know who all. The aircraft carriers (all three) would be needed to access these players and their sites many of which will be beyond the reach of the IAF flying from the sub-continent. Also a carrier remains the most versatile and flexible way of saying grrrr! without firing a shot - it gives diplomats the ability to grade their response. The 3rd carrier will ensure availability as spoken of in the first paragraph. In 2045 unless something goes drastically awry the three big economies will be USA-China-India. It will behoove us to have a 3rd carrier by then.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 11th July 2017 at 20:19.
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Old 12th July 2017, 10:58   #107
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

Three carriers in joint exercises in Bay of Bengal

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/11/as...ses/index.html

Air craft carriers of the US Navy, the Indian Navy & Japan's Maritime Self Defense force participate in Malabar 2017 - joint exercise in Bay of Bengal. The Malabar Exercise has been held between India & USA since 1992 and has included Japan since 2015. This is the first time 3 carriers, one each from each country, will participate. The carriers participating are:-

Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers-d1-uss_nimitz_cvn68.jpg
USN Nimitz; ~100,000 tonnes + displacement; 80 to 100 aircraft

Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers-d2-r33.jpg
INS Vikramaditya; ~44,000 tonne displacement; 30 to 36 aircraft

Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers-d3-izumo.jpg
JS Izumo; ~27,000 tonnes; 20 to 28 aircraft

The first two ships readers of this thread are familiar with. The third is a helicopter carrier displacing 27,000 tonnes full load and capable of operating a 28 aircraft wing. While these are currently helicopters the wing could in the future include V/STOL aircraft too. JS Izumo is roughly the size of our old INS Viraat but much faster at 30 knots plus. She also has an extra deck to lift troops with their light and medium vehicles ie a limited amphibious assault capability.

Not getting into the political message on this thread. Given the changed global circumstances alignment with USA is inevitable and pragmatic. Japan has been a natural but till recently indifferent ally.
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Old 20th July 2017, 03:11   #108
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

A tale of three interesting Carrier designs and concepts -

1 - the Nimitz, nuclear powered behemoth with an air wing the size of the air force of some countries. 4 catapults which can simultaneously launch two aircraft at different vectors. Custom designed and made for 'power projection' and 'area control'. Travels with a flotilla of some fearsome destroyers, frigates and nuclear attack Subs (Los Angeles class?). The AEGIS equipped destroyers are the 'eyes'. Embarks some vintage aircraft)

2 - The VikAd - a missile cruiser converted to a carrier. A decently sized aircraft carrier, which was not custom made - space not optimally used but still manages to fit about a decent mix of attack aircraft and helicopters. Uses a Ski Jump ramp, which is again a decent compromise considering its role. Travels with some fearsome ships and a submarine (Kilo? Arihant? Chakra II?). The Destroyers and Frigates are the eyes. Made mainly for 'area denial' & support.

3 - The Izumo - a 'multi purpose' custom built carrier. Which can embark V/STOL aircrafts if required and available. Helicopter carrier which can deploy troops near shore (like an LSD). Basically it can be used for multiple roles. Area denial, troop support, etc) Travels with a small support contingent considering that the Japanese call it a self defence force.

Interestingly, these three are the templates of how carriers have evolved over the years, EMALS etc notwithstanding.
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Old 20th July 2017, 15:07   #109
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
The first two ships readers of this thread are familiar with. The third is a helicopter carrier displacing 27,000 tonnes full load and capable of operating a 28 aircraft wing. While these are currently helicopters the wing could in the future include V/STOL aircraft too. JS Izumo is roughly the size of our old INS Viraat but much faster at 30 knots plus. She also has an extra deck to lift troops with their light and medium vehicles ie a limited amphibious assault capability.

Not getting into the political message on this thread. Given the changed global circumstances alignment with USA is inevitable and pragmatic. Japan has been a natural but till recently indifferent ally.
Not many know that the HMS Hermes (That became the old mum Viraat) was converted from a light fleet carrier design of the Centaur class, into a helicopter & commando carrier, before being converted to a STOVL Harrier carrier with ski jump.

The INS Viraat with us, maintained this capability as a commando carrier and could also take along 2 proper landing crafts to unload these soldiers onto soldiers. Very unique combination.


The Nimitz as the name suggests, is the lead ship of the class. Named after Adm. Chester - Chetty - Nimitz, a hero of the pacific theater in WW2. I think after the USS Enterprise was decommissioned, Nimitz is the oldest active carrier of the USN. It would have been a better gesture if they had sent a newer one. Nimitz is basically now home ported in "home waters" doing secondary duties of sorts heading towards its decommissioning.

Last edited by Reinhard : 20th July 2017 at 15:10.
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Old 28th July 2017, 14:01   #110
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

An article, written by an American defence analyst, on the importance of Indian Navy in a full blown conventional war between India & (China + Pakistan).
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...vs-china-20875

Key Points:

1) Because of the Himalayas, land conflict is likely to be a draw, with no territory won or lost.

2) IAF is likely to be on the defensive on both fronts. Most PLAF air bases are too far away from major strategic Indian targets. Airbases in Tibet are useful for landing transport aircraft, but not for fighter aircraft operations because Tibetan plateau has average elevation of 8000 to 10000 feet. You can't take off with a full weapons/fuel load.

3) China can cause severe damage to Indian military infrastructure with a large scale conventional ballistic missile attack. PLA Rocket Force has 2000+ ballistic missiles and a dedicated force with 100,000 personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People...y_Rocket_Force

India has no defense against such an attack, but China is unlikely to fire a barrage of missiles because they need those missiles for bigger goals (South China Sea, Taiwan, Japan, USA etc)

4) India has significant advantage over China when it comes to Naval battles. Indian Navy can effectively blockade the Indian Ocean, and Chinese Navy wouldn't be able to lift the blockade. 80% of China's fuel imports passes through the Indian Ocean.

Last edited by smartcat : 28th July 2017 at 14:03.
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Old 28th July 2017, 14:10   #111
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
An article, written by an American defence analyst,
I sort of doubt the credibility of his research after noting that the main picture shows a French Mirage 2000 instead of an Indian one.

Also by his own description "I'm a freelance writer on defense and security issues in Asia."

https://about.me/kylemizokami
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Old 28th July 2017, 14:15   #112
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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I sort of doubt the credibility of his research after noting that the main picture shows a French Mirage 2000 instead of an Indian one.
The article acknowledges that - "Image: French Air Force Mirage 2000D at Kandahar Airfield. Wikimedia Commons/SAC Tim Laurence/MOD"
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Old 29th July 2017, 18:02   #113
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Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers-vikrant-malta-1961-tbhp.jpg


I.N.S.Vikrant at Malta, August 1961.

Her deck adorned with shiny Sea Hawks and Alizes too. Likely the return voyage, having just picked up new babies at Portsmouth and Hyeres respectively.

Last edited by travancore : 29th July 2017 at 18:22.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 16:51   #114
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Also a carrier remains the most versatile and flexible way of saying grrrr! without firing a shot - it gives diplomats the ability to grade their response. .
There is the undoubted fact that carriers still represent an excellent soft power projection method even when not used in anger. I mean one only has to look at the shiny Liaoning. It's in no way combat ready and is really being used to develop PLAN carrier skills but in the recent drills they've conducted, slick videos have been produced that undoubtedly show that the PLAN recognise the fact that to the lay person it will certainly come across as impressive. Furthermore you could see the objectively disastrous cruise of the Kuznetsov all the way to Syria for some token bombing runs as simply a case of President Putin wanting to show the world that with a carrier battle group of his own, Russia too is still in the geopolitical big boy club. That they lost two jets, billowed a trail of black smoke not seen since Dickens was writing his novels, and has to be permanently chaperoned by a tugboat to drag it when the Kuznetsov frequently breaks down will all be lost on Joe Bloggs.

Coming to India though, I've personally always felt that while India can't let it's long developed carrier skills atrophy, given the scope and nature of operations in the IOR, India should focus on making massive strides to improve it's rather tepid ASW capabilities. Additionally India needs to a potent sub surface fleet as that is the best way for India to achieve the same Anti-Access/Area Denial type approach that China itself uses in the SCS to India's own backyard in the IOR. India desperately needs a conventional AIP sub fleet to make up the numbers to keep an eye on not only Pakistan but the ever encroaching Chinese. For now it would be wise to keep a close eye on the Malabar Strait through increased focus on developing the Naval capabilities at the Andamans. Forward deploy P-8s to run continuous patrols, get as much bathymetric data as possible so that if need be the passageway can be choked. These are just some passing thoughts of course.
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Old 4th September 2017, 17:40   #115
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Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers-indian-navy-sealand-nehru-1954.jpg

Though not as sexy as her Carrier borne counterparts, still a part of our naval aviation heritage!
Nehru with a Short Sealand, INS Garuda, Dec 1954

The P.M. is even wearing "white" shoes.

The "FOOTSTEP" must be to climb on to the "roof"

Last edited by travancore : 4th September 2017 at 17:43.
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Old 4th September 2017, 18:43   #116
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Originally Posted by travancore View Post
Attachment 1672572

Nehru with a Short Sealand, INS Garuda, Dec 1954
Travancore, thank you for sharing. You have a treasure of old naval aviation photos. The naval admiral next to Nehru is Sir Charles Pizey the second to last British chief of the Indian Navy (1950 to '55). Please do post some more. Taking inspiration from you here are a few more...

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Shorts Sealand referred to in the previous post in all its glory....powered by two 9200 cc, 340 hp, 6-in-line piston engines giving a top speed of 280 kmph. The forebearer of today's Vikramaditya and Mig-29K.

Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers-z6-viraat.jpg
Lovely stern shot of Viraat (now de-commissioned) in company of US Navy ships.

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Breguet Alize at moment of catapult launch. The girdle that strapped it to the steam catapult's piston is seen falling off just under the aircraft. Photo circa 1967

As an aside I find it strange and a little offensive the way web sites these days mark old photos with their name when in fact those photos belong to someone else - the Navy in most cases - and can be found in books published in the 1970s and 1980s before the world wide web came into being!

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Old 9th September 2017, 05:07   #117
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The "Cobra" occupies pride of place.

It appears that the Commissioning CO of INAS 310, Lt. Cdr Mihir Roy was known as the "King Cobra". Very apt!

The first photo may show Nawab Ali Yavar Jung, Indian Ambassador to France. Or is it Mr. Bajpai ?

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Old 9th September 2017, 19:14   #118
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Name:  Indian Navy Sealand Purchase.jpg
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The Indian Navy's first wings. All for 320,000 GBP!

Last edited by travancore : 9th September 2017 at 19:20.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 18:29   #119
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USA to offer EMALS to India for a future aircraft carrier

https://news.usni.org/2017/10/20/rep...opment-program

Quote:
India could be the first export customer for the aircraft launching system that is key to the new Gerald R. Ford-class carriers, according to reports in the Indian press this week. Citing sources in the Trump administration, the Press Trust of India reported this week that the U.S. has approved the Indian military use of General Atomics’ Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) for its carrier development program. The timing of the technology transfer is set to occur ahead of Secretary of State Rex Tillerson’s anticipated visit to India in the next several months.
The Indian Navy is developing its own indigenous aircraft carrier-II (IAC-II) program – the planned INS Vishal.

Vishal is expected to be a 65,000-ton carrier with catapult-assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR). The design would be more sophisticated than India’s current short-take off but arrested recovery (STOBAR) design on its Soviet-built Vikramaditya and the 40,000-ton domestically built Vikrant (IAC-I). Naval Sea Systems Command has shared information on carrier development, and India has reached out to U.K. firm BAE Systems, DCNS in France, Lockheed Martin and Russia’s Rosoboronexport for more information on carrier design.

EMALS is key to the Ford-class and its new reactor. Without having to generate the steam needed for older catapults designs, the Navy was able to develop smaller and more effecient reactors.The Indian Navy has expressed some desire to develop Vishal as a nuclear carrier.
Interesting. Can't comment much yet except that if we start a fresh design of 65,000 tonnes and nuclear power and a brand new launch system (EMALS) then we are looking at a 20 year period before the aircraft carrier comes into service. Would it not be more time and cost effective for us to build an improved Vikrant vessel for now instead of this big leap.

EMALS launches carrier-based aircraft from an aircraft catapult using a linear motor drive instead of the conventional steam piston drive.
Its main advantage is that it accelerates aircraft more smoothly, putting less stress on their airframes. Compared to steam catapults, EMALS also weighs less and requires less maintenance. Steam catapults have dominated aircraft launches from carriers since the early 1950s.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 22:47   #120
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Default Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Interesting. Can't comment much yet except that if we start a fresh design of 65,000 tonnes and nuclear power and a brand new launch system (EMALS) then we are looking at a 20 year period before the aircraft carrier comes into service. Would it not be more time and cost effective for us to build an improved Vikrant vessel for now instead of this big leap.
.
I'm in agreement with you. EMALS is far from proven (sure anything new takes time) - but if you look at the tribulations of the Gerald R Ford class and it's sole ship, you'll see EMALS is far from good enough to be used as it is.

Ref: https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/th...upe-1689810660 (scroll down to the middle to get a thorough overview of the present state of EMALS)
See below this paragraph:

Quote:
"Simply put, an aircraft carrier’s catapult has to be very reliable, as a “cold cat-shot,” one that does not produce enough forward momentum to get the aircraft into a sustained flight profile, can result in the loss of a $50 million-plus jet, or in the F-35C’s case about triple that price, in the water. Add in a potentially a dead aircrew and a full stop to what could be critical combat operations, and you can see how big the problem is."
Some damning stats:

Quote:
"In 2013, EMALS dismal record spoke for itself. 201 out of 1,967 launches had failed."
That's a 10% failure rate!!!! That's absolutely unacceptable. The USN can barely afford to keep their Hornets in the air. How on earth would the IN cope with that sort of attrition rate


Coming back, sure having a cat-&-trap carrier, a true flat top so to speak has advantages in terms of allowing not only a higher operational tempo, the ability to launch and recover simultaneously, and the ability to launch heavier aircraft, most important AEW platforms that provide a dome of radar coverage in the airspace around your CBG. All these are vital when you're trying to project power far from your shores. Therein lies my crucial distinction, Sure the IOR is a massive piece of real estate, or water, but India has the advantage of operating not that far from it's own shores. The Chinese are the main higher spectrum opponent the IN is aiming to counter. Any PLAN ships and future CBG would be far from home ports (note - I didn't mention friendly ports, as given the One Belt One Road initiative and the String of Pearls, they'll probably have basing rights. In Gwadar at least and maybe in Djibouti [see China's base building there: http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...w-african-base]). These PLAN ships then would greatly be enhanced by the capability benefits afforded by a cat-trap flat top.

I think given the fiscal constraints/realities India has, maybe the IN should stick with it's iterative ship building design that's served it so well, where it takes one proven base platform and incrementally improves over time. I'm a bit wary about the jump to cat-trap nuclear carriers. Already we'll have 3 very different types of carrier as proposed. That will make their maintainance and upkeep a total nightmare. You want to simplify platform types. I don't think India needs US sized supercarriers. India isn't in the power projection game. Instead if India (and this is something being argued for globally) can heed the Sea Control Ship [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Control_Ship] concept that originally led to the so-called-smaller carriers such as that fielded by the Royal Navy for eg following the White Paper on defence, and India can have 3-4 medium sized carriers in the 50-60,000 ton displacement with greater operational readiness, bob's your uncle. I think India'll be peachy.

Those are my thoughts. Bit rambly I admit. Apologies. Hopefully the gist of my argument makes it through.
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