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Old 1st July 2015, 14:45   #46
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

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The other big reason for the Su-30 gaining canards is to counter-act the heavier radar (vs the Su-27P ) which upset the weight balance, and the two nose-wheels also put in for the same reason.
The ancestry of the Su-30MKI is a bit convoluted, but goes roughly like Su-27 (initial single-seat fighter variant) --> Su-27K/33 (single-seat carrier-borne fighter) --> Su-27M/35 (modernized single-seat prototype with canards) --> Su-27PU (twin-seat multi-role fighter using elements of the Su-27UB twin-seat trainer and no canards) --> Su-30 (export version with downgraded electronics and still no canards) --> Su-30MKI (designed for India with a combination of Russian, Israeli & Indian systems and featuring canards). The names are confusing in large part because the same version is given a different designation depending on whether it is meant for a Russian or export customer.

In their neutral (flat) position, canards (as on the Su-30) contribute very little to the overall lift, but when deflected they provide both a swinging moment (lifting the nose faster) as well as generate turbulent airflow above the wings when in a nose-high position (thus increasing lift at high angles-of-attack). The Su-27 family first gained canards with the development of the Su-33 (sometimes referred to as the Su-27K) naval carrier-borne fighter. The canards were added to improve the aircraft's stability during high angle-of-attack landing approaches. This improved high AoA performance is the reason why they were retained for the Su-35 prototype.

A small correction ... Su-27s have always had twin nose-wheels.
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Old 1st July 2015, 22:20   #47
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

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The canards were added to improve the aircraft's stability during high angle-of-attack landing approaches. This improved high AoA performance is the reason why they were retained for the Su-35 prototype.

A small correction ... Su-27s have always had twin nose-wheels.

The designation/versioning is indeed tricky because of the system used and it's in Russian language translated to English.

While the Su-30 is indeed based on the Su-27PU, the Su-30 was originally intended for export hence the change of designation. The Su-35 was originally designated Su-27S or SM.

The canards were deemed necessary on the Su-33 for better low speed control , since corrections at low speed like landing approach required more pitch authority than stabilators alone could proffer. The benefit of high alpha vortices is secondary, and the Russians felt it was too much drag and didn't equip the later Su-35BM versions with canards, having lightened the 35 with more modern avionics and redesign/placement of components to adjust centre of gravity.

As for nosewheels - the Su-27 and Su-30 initial variants - possibly because they were converted 27UBs - were all single nosewheeled. The Su-27K/33 got twin wheels to spread the increased weight, which then carried over to the modern Su-30s with heavier radar and avionics. Note attached pictures of the single and two seat Su-27.

But we're digressing from the main topic - and the Sukhoi deserves its own thread.
Attached Thumbnails
Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force-su27_on_landing.jpg  

Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force-sukhoi_su27ub_belyakov.jpg  


Last edited by Ricci : 1st July 2015 at 22:34.
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Old 1st July 2015, 23:19   #48
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

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the Sukhoi deserves its own thread.
Surely does

Looking forward to a Sukhoi thread too.
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Old 2nd July 2015, 17:02   #49
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

Read the fascinating story. Lot of stuff went over my head at that Mach-3 speed!

However, I was tempted to mention a sonic boom somewhere around 1987-88 in my city Bikaner (Rajasthan) which sounded like a single shot lightening bolt and had paint of our roof top servant quarter cracking.

It was local newspaper Rajasthan Patrika's next day reporting which confirmed the cause that one of the IAF's birds (Bikaner has an IAF base at Nal on its outskirts) had reportedly reverse crossed the sound barrier i.e. lowered the speed from over Mach-1 to less than the threshold! Never heard of any such thing ever again though.
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Old 2nd July 2015, 23:17   #50
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

Brilliantly written, joy to read!

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force
The Sukhoi's throttle tops at Mach 2.0. Its strength is not in speed but in its low altitude capabilities, intense maneuverability, smart avionics and ability to deliver guided weapons from a stand off range. Interestingly the engines of the Sukhoi are about 9% to 10% more powerful than those of the Mig-25 -12,300 kgf for the Sukhoi versus 11,200 kgf for the Mig. But the Sukhoi engines and the aircraft are designed to excel in a very different set of diverse roles making a comparison not feasible.
While these magnificent airplanes were intended for different purposes, their paths crossed and the Flanker upstaged the Foxbat in the basic role. The Mikoyan was designed as an interceptor and one of the key requirements of an interceptor is the ability to climb fast. The Sukhoi was born a fighter, but it put its more powerful engines to good use and held a lot of climb records. Of course the P-42 was kind of a cheating with its stripped airframe and souped-up engine, but that was the day the interceptor suddenly became an endangered species.
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How do you compare a Formula One (Mig-25) racing car with a BMW 7 fast luxury sedan.
I have to say that the Sukhoi is more of the F1 car here. The F1 cars are designed for control and acceleration with top speed coming as a bonus as is the case with the Flanker. IMO, we should be comparing the MiG-25 to the Thrust2. The face of air combat is changing, sheer speed is giving way to supersonic persistence, the Foxbat will probably be the fastest combat aircraft ever built in history.
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Old 3rd July 2015, 09:13   #51
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

As an avid aviation enthusiast, a few points come to memory when the topic is the Mig 25.

1) A sad fact is that the Iraqis buried their Mig25s in sand in Gulf war 2, with the "you may win, but you will never get my crown jewels" mentality:

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=28631

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2) In order to scare away the SR 71 Blackbirds that were on the way back from their long-run reconnaissance flights over Russia, the Soviet airforce eventually figured out a way to deploy the Mig 25s successfully. At the sustained high speeds that the SR 71 flew, it is true that virtually nothing was threat for them. But the Soviets carefully calculated and launched Mig 25s at precisely the right moment and right trajectory, so that they would take off and attain enough altitude and speed to fire off Air-to-Air missiles at the Blackbirds. None of the missiles hit a Blackbird, but it was enough to put a bit of a scare in the cocky Blackbird's "sled drivers". The SR 71s had to alter their routes after that.

3) The F 15 was built in response and out of panic over the Mig 25's development. Prior to Viktor Beleshenko's defection with his Mig 25 to Japan, the Foxbat was a mirage, a mystery. And we fear what we can't understand. The F 15 was developed to have speed as well as agility, since it was feared that the Foxbat was so too. After Beleshenko's defection however, the secrets of the Mig 25 were out of the bag and only then did the Americans know that the Mig 25 is more of a high-speed interceptor than an air-superiority fighter that the F 15 came to become. On hindsight, the F 15 is acknowledged to be a vastly different aircraft compared to the Mig 25. Indeed, in its own arena (with factors favoring it), the F 15 can outdo the Mig 25 anyday.

4) If I remember right, the spur to design the Foxbat at the Soviets' end came because of the Supersonic bomber programme that USA initiated. The Mach 2 capable Valkyrie and the Hustler were deemed as major threats to the USSR and they simply needed a viable high-speed, high-altitude interceptor. But as with the F 15's development, these supersonic bombers flopped eventually and the Mig 25's development went on and it came out as an overdone product - a huge sledge-hammer to hit a small door nail - in a way. Boy, did the Cold War induce fears in the designers of the day! It sure brought out the best in them.
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Old 4th July 2015, 00:45   #52
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post

2) In order to scare away the SR 71 Blackbirds that were on the way back from their long-run reconnaissance flights over Russia, the Soviet airforce eventually figured out a way to deploy the Mig 25s successfully. At the sustained high speeds that the SR 71 flew, it is true that virtually nothing was threat for them. But the Soviets carefully calculated and launched Mig 25s at precisely the right moment and right trajectory, so that they would take off and attain enough altitude and speed to fire off Air-to-Air missiles at the Blackbirds. None of the missiles hit a Blackbird, but it was enough to put a bit of a scare in the cocky Blackbird's "sled drivers". The SR 71s had to alter their routes after that.
Apologies. I confused the Mig 31s' successful interception of the SR 71s in the 1980s with the Mig 25. It was the Mig 31 that achieved missile locks on the Blackbirds, not the Mig 25. But of course, the Mig 31 is the successor of the Mig 25, so they are of the same bloodline.

Reference: http://theaviationist.com/2013/12/11/sr-71-vs-mig-31/#
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Old 4th July 2015, 08:21   #53
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

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Apologies. I confused the Mig 31s' successful interception of the SR 71s in the 1980s with the Mig 25. It was the Mig 31 that achieved missile locks on the Blackbirds, not the Mig 25. But of course, the Mig 31 is the successor of the Mig 25, so they are of the same bloodline.

Reference: http://theaviationist.com/2013/12/11/sr-71-vs-mig-31/#
Dear locusjag, a belated welcome to Team BHP. Happy to see an aviation enthusiast and someone knowledgeable on aircrafts on our well mannered forum. You are actually right on both counts. The SR-71 stopped over flights over the Soviet Union from late 1960s due to the fear of the Mig-25 Foxbat and stayed with recce missions at the periphery. It is of course not known if they were over flying it at all or not after the Gary Powers incident in 1960. Till 1976 they were unsure what the Mig-25's performance parameters were. And by that time the Soviets had developed SAMs that could threaten (though probably not shoot down) an SR-71. The mystique and fear of the Mig-25 had served its purpose of deterrence. As you state in reality the Mig-25 could not have shot down an SR-71.

The Mig-31 as you correctly point out managed lock-on's on the SR-71 'flying over the periphery just about in international waters'. The data for the Mig-31 on sources like Wikipedia don't add up on parameters like range though speed is probably accurate but that is sadly the case with many Russian aircraft. Today satellites have taken over and the drama and mystery has gone. One IAF pilot went on record to state that at 80,000' at certain points you could see (weather permitting) the whole Himalayan range from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh. Please share more of what you know - data, anecdotes. Look forward to it. - Narayan

Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force-z-mig31.jpg
For the reading pleasure of BHPians this is the Mig-31 the worthy successor to the Mig-25. It is also a straightline climb accelerate and shoot interceptor and not a dog-fighter. However at low altitudes it can clock a whopping Mach 1.23 (~1500 kmph) which the older sibling could not. At high altitudes it tops Mach 2.83 (3000 kmph).

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The Mig-25 Foxbat here for comparison to show the common lineage.
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Old 6th July 2015, 19:13   #54
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Impressive write up as usual sir.made me nostalgic by taking to my early teens when I used to be mad on aircrafts. Following reading your thread ,I happened to watch a video in YouTube (channel name- aeronauticator). It had an excellent documentary about the plane. Anyone interested can watch that video titled ,MIG 25: foxbat - the legend of the Cold War.
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Old 7th July 2015, 18:57   #55
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

Dear Mr.Narayan

Thank you for the fantastic Post. It was very informative. From Cars to plane
its a good learning leap for me in Team BHP.
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Old 8th July 2015, 11:21   #56
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Dear Narayan sir your each thread on these marvellous fighter planes rekindles the aviation(especially defence aviation) enthusiast in me. I have always been a fan of the Russian MiG's, despite being technically inferior to their counterparts they have time and again proved their worth. I remember the MiG-25 as being a phantom aircraft of its era with a lot of mystery surrounding it. Not many people have heard of this fighter jet. It was also enlightening to know its role in the Indian Airforce. Please keep sharing I will keep my eyes peeled for threads like these.
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Old 25th July 2015, 14:57   #57
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

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Russian MiG's, despite being technically inferior to their counterparts .



Where did you get this information that Russian Mig's were technically inferior to their counterparts? especially the Mig-25?

The Mig-25 was considered the best interceptor in the world when it entered service and the US developed the F-15 in response to it.

The Luftwaffe (German Air Force) which operated the Mig-29 for some time after reunification trained against NATO F-16s and found it superiour in close combat.

http://theaviationist.com/2015/04/08...se-air-combat/

In the words of an German Pilot:

“Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ (which is the NATO designation for the R-73 missile) I can’t be beaten. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’ (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn’t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!”

Most of the encounters between Western and Russian MiGs have been between a well trained and equipped Air Force (US or Israel) vs an ill trained Air Force( Iraqi, Egypt, Jordan) etc. Also the MiGs operated by these countries are usually downgraded export versions. Hence the combat has been heavily in favour of the Western equipped Air Forces.

When Pilot training and equitment is of similar levels (i.e. India - Pakistan wars) the results have been quite different. Also most of the information available in English is biased towards western sources.


Read about Nguyen Van Coc, and Vietnamese Air Force Ace who shot down 9 US Air Force aircraft in his Mig-21 between 1965 and 1968:

http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/12...s-leading-ace/
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Old 26th July 2015, 02:23   #58
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Originally Posted by Foxbat View Post
[/b]

Where did you get this information that Russian Mig's were technically inferior to their counterparts? especially the Mig-25?

The Mig-25 was considered the best interceptor in the world when it entered service and the US developed the F-15 in response to it.
While the MiG-25 was (arguably) the best interceptor in the 1960-70s, it was not refined as a platform. It has poor range at low altitude, was not very maneuverable, but most of all, the avionics came up short. Radar power was high so jamming was difficult, but it did not have the kind of range or resolution to be very effective, and the missiles were also inaccurate, with less than desired range.

The MiG-29 too suffered similar shortcomings - poor avionics, range and reliability of the avionics. There were engine reliability concerns too, but Russian doctrine was to quickly replace engines and send the engine to base for overhaul, but operational failures during sorties like radar failure ( reported by Yugoslavian forces ), make winning difficult. The MiG-29 radar besides reliability, also lacked range and resolution. Other shortcomings were range being most notable, the MiG-29 being too thirsty and running out of fuel was a significant fear pilots had. The MiG-29 can't go supersonic with the centreline drop tank in place, nor can it fire its cannon with the drop tank in place ( later fixed ).

As a flying machine, the MiG-29 has the thrust and maneuverability, it lacked in electronics, particularly BVR envelope ( radar, ECM and missiles), where the western rivals were better. The Luftwaffe used F-4s - an older generation aircraft, paired with MiG-29s so as to use the F-4's APG-65 (itself upgraded, common with F/A-18s) instead of the Sapfir radar.

BTW, the Luftwaffe MiG-29s were not only the first variants, but downgraded export variants, and the Germans further detuned the engines for reliability.
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Old 27th July 2015, 12:51   #59
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[/b]

Where did you get this information that Russian Mig's were technically inferior to their counterparts? especially the Mig-25?
Foxbat mate I was never talking about MiG-25 inferiority but MiG's in general. Also it depends on what you and I are reading and source of information may differ.

Quote:
The Mig-25 was considered the best interceptor in the world when it entered service and the US developed the F-15 in response to it.
Here's an interesting article of USAF SR-71 Blackbird vs. MiG 25 Foxbat. Again I repeat it depends on what you and I are reading. Article link: http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/mig25.html

Quote:
The Luftwaffe (German Air Force) which operated the Mig-29 for some time after reunification trained against NATO F-16s and found it superiour in close combat.
Here's a interesting take of Luftwaffe on MiG 29 about its positives and negatives. Article Link: http://www.16va.be/mig-29_experience.htm

Quote:
Most of the encounters between Western and Russian MiGs have been between a well trained and equipped Air Force (US or Israel) vs an ill trained Air Force( Iraqi, Egypt, Jordan) etc. Also the MiGs operated by these countries are usually downgraded export versions. Hence the combat has been heavily in favour of the Western equipped Air Forces.
Mate I have read tons of materials on this and can say it depends on what you and I are reading. For example our Folland Gnats were technically inferior to PAF's F86 Sabres and F-104 Starfighter during the 1965 war, but our well trained pilots were able to give a tough fight to PAF in combat. In contrast if you read some other articles they claim how PAF's Sabre and F-104 kept the IAF at bay. What I think is apart from the plane it also depends on the pilot flying it. You give an average place to a good pilot and he will make it deadly. You give a good plane to an average pilot and he will ruin it. Some interesting articles: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f104_5.html
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/oct/17war.htm
Quote:
When Pilot training and equitment is of similar levels (i.e. India - Pakistan wars) the results have been quite different. Also most of the information available in English is biased towards western sources.
Again it depends on what you are reading mate. I have heard some first hand information from my uncle who was in the defence force. I have heard PAF had better equipped fighter planes than us but didn't knew how to use them and thereby fell prey to our fine pilots from IAF.

Quote:
Read about Nguyen Van Coc, and Vietnamese Air Force Ace who shot down 9 US Air Force aircraft in his Mig-21 between 1965 and 1968:

http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/12...s-leading-ace/
Have seen this on TV during the MiG Alley series on History Channel describing Dog Fights between North Korean MiG's and South Korean and American fighters. It was interesting where some retired USAF pilots did acknowledge the MiG's capability in combat and also the pilot flying it.

P.S. I am a self confessed fan of the MiG's
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Old 29th July 2015, 16:15   #60
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Default Re: Indian Aviation: MiG-25 Foxbat in the Indian Air Force

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Foxbat mate I was never talking about MiG-25 inferiority but MiG's in general. Also it depends on what you and I are reading and source of information may differ.


Here's an interesting article of USAF SR-71 Blackbird vs. MiG 25 Foxbat. Again I repeat it depends on what you and I are reading. Article link: http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/mig25.html


Here's a interesting take of Luftwaffe on MiG 29 about its positives and negatives. Article Link: http://www.16va.be/mig-29_experience.htm


Mate I have read tons of materials on this and can say it depends on what you and I are reading. For example our Folland Gnats were technically inferior to PAF's F86 Sabres and F-104 Starfighter during the 1965 war, but our well trained pilots were able to give a tough fight to PAF in combat. In contrast if you read some other articles they claim how PAF's Sabre and F-104 kept the IAF at bay. What I think is apart from the plane it also depends on the pilot flying it. You give an average place to a good pilot and he will make it deadly. You give a good plane to an average pilot and he will ruin it. Some interesting articles: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f104_5.html
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/oct/17war.htm

Again it depends on what you are reading mate. I have heard some first hand information from my uncle who was in the defence force. I have heard PAF had better equipped fighter planes than us but didn't knew how to use them and thereby fell prey to our fine pilots from IAF.


Have seen this on TV during the MiG Alley series on History Channel describing Dog Fights between North Korean MiG's and South Korean and American fighters. It was interesting where some retired USAF pilots did acknowledge the MiG's capability in combat and also the pilot flying it.

P.S. I am a self confessed fan of the MiG's

I agree there is a wealth of information available on the internet but a lot of it is biased towards the country of orgin of the website.
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