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Old 25th August 2015, 06:53   #61
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Excellent information and learning. That is one reason why T-BHP is a den of addiction.
Had to get to Wikipedia to understand bcc & fcc and two hours vanished! Here is link that leads to many more reference as is norm on Wikipedia : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotropes_of_iron
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Old 25th August 2015, 12:59   #62
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Default Re: MiG-29 Fulcrum : The balance rests on us

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how...379/1683500255

An interesting link that's probably relevant in this discussion on the MIG 29. Its a western perspective, so I would take it with a pinch of salt, no harm in reading though!
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Old 25th August 2015, 21:51   #63
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Thanks for that addition. I'm pretty sure the German airforce retired the F4 Phantom several years ago, 2013 or so. Big 'retirement' party with lots of publicity.

Jeroen
You're right, the F-4 was retired in 2013. The replacement Typhoons were delayed with some deliveries still to happen, so I was still under impression the F-4s were kept around a bit longer.


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Ricci - Read this one as well. In fact prior to the F-14 Tomcat one. Enjoying your informative posts on these jets.

The information on those that were in actual combat and were shot down is interesting. Do you have similar nos. for the others aircraft's, or is it only available/published for the Mig-29's?
There are online resources, usually aviation fan forums. The F-15 is fabled as having a 103:0 kill ratio. Most of it against 3rd generation fighters, but also claimed (and verified by western sources) 5 MiG-29s in the air. The US claims the F-15 is the greatest fighter ever , citing this 103:0 kill ration, but most of it was done by the IAF ( Israeli AF, not Indian) and they are considered to have the best pilots in the world. US doctrine also hands all air-air fights to F-15s via AWACS, thus reducing the opportunities for other jets, especially the US Navy ones who despite being closer, might not be handed the intercept. The F-15A-D models have only one role - so, the USAF will not let any other jet to intercept enemy fighters if there are F-15s available, which usually are. I don't know if friendly kills are part of the 103 tally. As for the zero losses, they cite only the F-15A-D variants, excluding the F-15E which has been shot down ; again the USAF disputes those as SAM kills rather than fighter kills.

At least 1 F-16 has a MiG-29 kill, during Kosovo operations.

http://www.wearethemighty.com/the-18...l-time-2015-05
This ranks the F-14 above the F-15, citing Iranian F-14 kills being higher than F-15 kills by USAF+Israel.

Last edited by Ricci : 25th August 2015 at 21:54.
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Old 26th August 2015, 14:51   #64
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Default Re: MiG-29 Fulcrum : The balance rests on us

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bcc & fcc? Education needed please.
bcc - body centred cubic. In addition to the corners of the cube, there is one additional atom in the middle.

fcc - face centred cubic, you have one additional atom in the middle of each face of the cube. Most metals tend to be fcc but Iron is not.
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Old 26th August 2015, 15:30   #65
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Default Re: MiG-29 Fulcrum : The balance rests on us

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The F-15 is fabled as having a 103:0 kill ratio.
I think this is just western propaganda. The Syrians and Russians have claimed to have shot down a few Israeli F-15s and even the IAF acknowledges they have been hit by missiles but they claim that they still managed to return to base or blame the crash on something else.

Some info I found on a forum, most military websites are blocked at office

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...94-F-15-losses



After watching Israel repeatedly bomb schools and hospitals in Palestine and then later say it was by accident I inclined to believe they hiding the truth.

Another example of an over hyped weapon is the US Patriot missile defence system. In the first Gulf war it was proclaimed to be an overwhelming success with a 97% hit rate stated by President Bush against Iraqi Scud missiles. Many years later it was acknowledged that the weapon was a failure with an actual success rate of 10-20%.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 23:18   #66
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I think this is just western propaganda. The Syrians and Russians have claimed to have shot down a few Israeli F-15s and even the IAF acknowledges they have been hit by missiles but they claim that they still managed to return to base or blame the crash on something else.
Indeed, it is sometimes the case. I've read IRIAF flew 25 F-14s in a single flyby just to address the claims of single digit flyable Tomcats in service, sometime in 1980s-90s. As for Tomcat kills, there are counter claims by Iraq that they had only x number of aircraft, how does IRIAF claim hundreds of shoot downs exceeding the count of purchased planes.

Then the US tends to attribute kills to SAMs or crashes than fighter kills, as was with the 1991 F/A-18. There have been a few F-15E models acknowledged as "lost", which Iraq/Serbia forces list as shootdowns by fighters. The US claims no F-15Cs lost - kind of hints that Israel's F-15A models might be shot down.

All in all, one needs to meticulously track bureau numbers of built US jets, to determine losses, which are regarded as reliable enough as GAO (government accounting office) audits are considered stringent and trustworthy, so new aircraft are not slyly renumbered as attrition losses.

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Another example of an over hyped weapon is the US Patriot missile defence system. In the first Gulf war it was proclaimed to be an overwhelming success with a 97% hit rate stated by President Bush against Iraqi Scud missiles. Many years later it was acknowledged that the weapon was a failure with an actual success rate of 10-20%.
Absolutely, even with SAMs, it usually takes a salvo to shoot down a plane at a range. Iraqi fighters have been recorded to have evaded multiple missiles including AMRAAMs. Such misses are explained as 'being launched outside allowed parameters', a luxury they don't easily accord on to Russian weapons.

During exercises in Europe, USAF F-15s routinely locked on to low flying helicopters, and this was done with regularity. Then when the tallies were drawn up, they realized there weren't many/any helicopters in the claimed area. Then it was realized that the F-15 radars were picking up fast moving cars on the autobahns.

Sometimes the chinks in western armour do show glaringly, sometimes with disastrous results - a few friendly kills have been recorded.


Here's a planes vs cars drag event, including a Formula 3? vs MiG-29.


The MiG-29 is lapping the car!
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Old 6th September 2015, 11:08   #67
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Default Re: MiG-29 Fulcrum : The balance rests on us

US propaganda is usually like their Hollywood action flicks, full of 100% bovine excrement. We need to understand their extreme effort to do so, their defence industry, their jobs and their elections rest on the ability of their weapons getting sold. Any US defence forum will be full of their hyperbolic ex soldiers most of whom must have cut onions or potatoes in the mess, yet believe they are all John Rambo and have single handedy saved democracy somewhere and somehow.
If their weapons and soldiers are so good, why are they getting killed in large numbers in Afghanistan and even Iraq? And they have invaded countries which didn't exactly have top of the line defence forces, yet increasing number of body bags are turning up.
All this my gun is bigger than yours bravado will not work in the battlefield. Fighter jets are designed for a particular purpose, and there is not a single jet in the world which can claim to be an allrounder doing everything possible in every war.
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Old 7th September 2015, 11:34   #68
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If their weapons and soldiers are so good, why are they getting killed in large numbers in Afghanistan and even Iraq? And they have invaded countries which didn't exactly have top of the line defence forces, yet increasing number of body bags are turning up.
That's because Iraq and Afghanistan are asymmetric wars. You can have all the firepower in the world, but if you don't have a clear enemy, then anything you have is completely useless.
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Old 7th September 2015, 12:35   #69
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That's because Iraq and Afghanistan are asymmetric wars. You can have all the firepower in the world, but if you don't have a clear enemy, then anything you have is completely useless.
Most of the future battlefields are going to be asymmetric ones. Gone are the days when conventional armies would slog it over trenches and battlefields. For all the hyped up superiority if US forces can't hold up well against ragtag armies or guerrillas then they are frankly a burden to the tax payers. Maybe they should participate in Kashmir to understand how to fight and win battles.

Guerrilla wars are always with hidden enemies who know the terrain more than you. One can't sit within air conditioned humvees and fire away using a big machine gun hoping that the enemy runs away
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Old 8th September 2015, 03:30   #70
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Most of the future battlefields are going to be asymmetric ones. Gone are the days when conventional armies would slog it over trenches and battlefields. For all the hyped up superiority if US forces can't hold up well against ragtag armies or guerrillas then they are frankly a burden to the tax payers. Maybe they should participate in Kashmir to understand how to fight and win battles.

Guerrilla wars are always with hidden enemies who know the terrain more than you. One can't sit within air conditioned humvees and fire away using a big machine gun hoping that the enemy runs away
I don't know if you've read the books by Rajiv Chandrasekaran (Little America: The War within the War for Afghanistan and Imperial Life in the Emerald City). He gives a fascinating insight into why coalition forces have failed to make any impact on these countries and what led to the rise of IS. It is far more complicated than anyone thinks and way more than just guerrilla warfare and failed US policy.
(Sorry for going OT!)
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Old 7th October 2015, 18:45   #71
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Default Re: MiG-29 Fulcrum : The balance rests on us

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US propaganda is usually like their Hollywood action flicks, full of 100% bovine excrement. We need to understand their extreme effort to do so, their defence industry, their jobs and their elections rest on the ability of their weapons getting sold. Any US defence forum will be full of their hyperbolic ex soldiers most of whom must have cut onions or potatoes in the mess, yet believe they are all John Rambo and have single handedy saved democracy somewhere and somehow.
Bwahahahaha, in all this thread, this is the post I loved the most. I was laughing so hard in office. Sadly, all this discussion would fly over most people's heads, so didn't try and explain.

Lovely thread btw.
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Old 8th October 2015, 05:08   #72
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Bwahahahaha, in all this thread, this is the post I loved the most. I was laughing so hard in office. Sadly, all this discussion would fly over most people's heads, so didn't try and explain.



Lovely thread btw.

Yes I loved it too. Such comments always say something about the respective author as well.
And now we have the IAF buying a forty year old USA helicopter. That must have put a smile on a few American faces! It s all about who has the last laugh. Easy to feel superior though, no so easy to get the last laugh
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Old 8th October 2015, 08:13   #73
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Default Re: MiG-29 Fulcrum : The balance rests on us

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Originally Posted by Jeeper1941 View Post
I don't know if you've read the books by Rajiv Chandrasekaran (Little America: The War within the War for Afghanistan and Imperial Life in the Emerald City). He gives a fascinating insight into why coalition forces have failed to make any impact on these countries and what led to the rise of IS. It is far more complicated than anyone thinks and way more than just guerrilla warfare and failed US policy.
(Sorry for going OT!)

Its not really OT, US forces (the current ones) suck at integration with people. Unlike WW2 forces (especially Japan and Korea) where in they were able to successfully integrate and transform the local populace into adapting western philosophies, the current lot in Iraq and Afghanistan are more interested in securing safe areas, not interacting with the public. Indian forces are far better in integration with the local Kashmiri population, the only way to win over territories is to win over the local people, one cant occupy and eliminate.
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