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Old 24th September 2015, 19:29   #16
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Default re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by embee View Post
You're right. India; now being recognised as a major super power with super buying power as well should look elsewhere for modern weapons.

Hypothetically speaking, if you consider Russia as a person, they are the ones who consider you (India) as a friend only when circumstances are pleasant or profitable. Basically a fairweather friend.
Embee, first thank you for this thread on the Apache. Great to see aviation threads gaining momentum on Team BHP and the enthusiasm they generate.

As someone in the 19th century said in foreign affairs there are only permanent interests not friends or enemies. Global power and economic centres are shifting and we are simply aligning with where are interests now lie. The Soviet era Russians who gave us tremendous help from the late 1950s to the early 1990s also repeatedly treated our men in uniform who went there for training with shameful shabbiness till the men in several instances, stood up for themselves {our bureaucratic embassy did nothing, as usual}. This behavior repeated dozens of times are now forgotten in the nostalgic glow of the Soviet era memories. Raw power, money and bargaining clout talk. Today we have some of it.

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Originally Posted by pedrolourenco View Post
In what way are American weapons superior to Russian ones? The MiG's ans Sukhoi's are far superior to the American jets. Also I think the Russians have an equivalent of the Apache.
Who is prettier Nimrat Kaur or Katrina Kaif. There can never be a one correct answer. Russian versus American - no clear answer - it varies from weapon system to weapon system and also what your budget is. Both make great weapons, both make weapons that are rugged and both have had cases of weapons with over inflated claims and limp actual performance.

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Originally Posted by Trojan View Post
Fully equipped to unleash terror and devastation within minutes, the Apaches are most pilots dream material outside of mach speeds!
These are very useful machines to fight the hot war near the ground in direct support of the troops. I am delighted the IAF is finally getting them after years of red tape.

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Originally Posted by Jeeper1941 View Post
It's a shame India did not consider the Denel Rooivalk
Jeeper1941, the two may look some what the same but beneath that similarity they are chalk and cheese. Apache IMHO is the right choice for us. Mind you the south Africans have developed some superb machines but in my respectful opinion the Rooivalk is not on that list though I am sure it fulfills there needs well.

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Originally Posted by john doe View Post
I have never understood what use these attack helicopters have in the Indian Air Force or Army.

Then where and against who? Pakistani and Chinese armies both have Stinger and equivalent missiles and excellent air defence capabilities. These attack choppers would be almost assuredly shot down.
John Doe, they are needed, in fact badly needed, as a force multiplier to help troops advance or to stem a Pakistani armoured attack in its tracks. Flying low and slow a helicopter gunship can achieve a lot more than fast jets. If we have to fight to defend ourselves we need to deal with the likes of the Stinger and yes, sadly, some aircraft will get shot down.
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Old 24th September 2015, 22:51   #17
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Default re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Embee, first thank you for this thread on the Apache. Great to see aviation threads gaining momentum on Team BHP and the enthusiasm they generate.

As someone in the 19th century said in foreign affairs there are only permanent interests not friends or enemies. Global power and economic centres are shifting and we are simply aligning with where are interests now lie. The Soviet era Russians who gave us tremendous help from the late 1950s to the early 1990s also repeatedly treated our men in uniform who went there for training with shameful shabbiness till the men in several instances, stood up for themselves {our bureaucratic embassy did nothing, as usual}. This behavior repeated dozens of times are now forgotten in the nostalgic glow of the Soviet era memories. Raw power, money and bargaining clout talk. Today we have some of it.

Hi V.Narayan,
Thanks for the revert. I think it is interesting to discuss defence stuff as well if one is interested in these topics.

What I have gathered from reading various news sources like Reuters, NDTV, TOI etc.. and other informative websites, is given as below.

India has offered to significantly increase an order for U.S. attack helicopters, aiming at boosting defence and strategic ties.

India and United States have rapidly expanded military and business ties in recent years, despite discord over issues such as intellectual property rights and market access.

Washington is keen to step up cooperation across the board, seeing India as a strategic partner in the face of an increasingly powerful and assertive China.

According to defence research firm IHS Jane's, India was the top foreign buyer of U.S. arms last year. An Apache deal would be one of the big military contracts apart from 36 French Multirole Fighter Aircraft-Dassault Rafale deal for USD 5 Billion since Modi's government took office in May 2014.

U.S. officials say there is the potential for billions of dollars of new arms sales in the next few years as India being the worlds top buyer of defence equipment and weapons. Also everybody hopes that Modi government can overcome bureaucratic obstacles that have held up other contracts.

India's cabinet has cleared a proposal to allow 49 percent foreign participation in the defence industry, up from a current cap of 26 percent but the US department of Defence would be looking at whether there would be the potential to go beyond 49 per cent something U.S. defence firms want before allowing technology transfers India craves.

The initial batch of Apache helicopters is meant to replace the Indian Air Force's ageing fleet of Soviet-era aircraft and will be armed with Hellfire and Stinger missiles.

The Indian Army has separately requested a fleet of at least 39 of these attack aircraft, some of which will be deployed as part of a new mountain division it is raising along the disputed border with China.

U.S. defence sales to India have grown from hundreds of millions of dollars to more than $9 billion now.

Last edited by embee : 24th September 2015 at 23:06.
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Old 24th September 2015, 23:16   #18
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Default re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

Found this video on YouTube:- India buys APACHE Attack Helicopters worries Pakistan!!
My one liner: Jai Hind!!


Last edited by embee : 24th September 2015 at 23:26.
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Old 25th September 2015, 13:00   #19
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Aren't choppers usually part of the Army.
Cavalry "troopers" right?
I think on the next phase we would anyway get some for the Army Aviation Corps. We anyway would be using the Chinook's bought along to support the Army ops, especially in the north-east and would also help in transporting the soon to be acquired M-777 ultra Light Howitzers. (Again from the US)

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Originally Posted by Jeeper1941 View Post
It's a shame India did not consider the Denel Rooivalk
Tough call, I am sure that we have taken the best in the world, and reading at the specs on Wikipedia, our HAL - LCH which is going in for weapon trials is somewhat equivalent to what Denel has made.

I still do not feel that Rooivalk is any match for the apaches.

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Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post

Any idea whether these would be outright purchase in CBU mode or produced here under Make in India?
Yes these are all off the shelf and has a lot of associated armaments to be bought along. We may procure more for the Army aviation corps as our Mi-35s are being phased out.

No "Make in India" here like any other US purchases, but I think our experience with Apaches would surely help our HAL - LCH. Which infact is already on order for Army Aviation corps. I think they have a requirement of something close to 114 of the LCH's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Embee, first thank you for this thread on the Apache. Great to see aviation threads gaining momentum on Team BHP and the enthusiasm they generate.

Global power and economic centres are shifting and we are simply aligning with where are interests now lie. The Soviet era Russians who gave us tremendous help from the late 1950s to the early 1990s also repeatedly treated our men in uniform who went there for training with shameful shabbiness till the men in several instances, stood up for themselves {our bureaucratic embassy did nothing, as usual}. This behavior repeated dozens of times are now forgotten in the nostalgic glow of the Soviet era memories. Raw power, money and bargaining clout talk. Today we have some of it.

These are very useful machines to fight the hot war near the ground in direct support of the troops. I am delighted the IAF is finally getting them after years of red tape.

Jeeper1941, the two may look some what the same but beneath that similarity they are chalk and cheese. Apache IMHO is the right choice for us. Mind you the south Africans have developed some superb machines but in my respectful opinion the Rooivalk is not on that list though I am sure it fulfills there needs well.

John Doe, they are needed, in fact badly needed, as a force multiplier to help troops advance or to stem a Pakistani armoured attack in its tracks. Flying low and slow a helicopter gunship can achieve a lot more than fast jets. If we have to fight to defend ourselves we need to deal with the likes of the Stinger and yes, sadly, some aircraft will get shot down.
Infact I was expecting your comment on the first page on this thread.
As you said the Apache Effect has brought more firepower here in the TBHP forum on defence.

Thanks for your detailed response, I think the interesting part would be what HAL would gain/loose here keeping LCH on the same side of Apache.
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Old 25th September 2015, 15:28   #20
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

As per Wikipedia (Make in India page), In August 2014, the Cabinet of India allowed 49% foreign direct investment (FDI) in the defence sector. The defence sector previously allowed 26% FDI. This was in hope of bringing down the military imports of India. Earlier, one Indian company would have held the 51% stake, this was changed so that multiple companies could hold the 51%.

Out of 25 sectors, except Space (74%), Defence (49%) and News Media (26%), 100% FDI is allowed in rest of sectors.

The official website of Make in India is quite informative.
Have a look @ http://www.makeinindia.com/sector/de...manufacturing/

Somehow, it makes me feel proud after watching the "Make in India" video.


Last edited by embee : 25th September 2015 at 15:32. Reason: Mods, due to computer glitch, this post has been re-posted. Kindly delete the same. Thank you.
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Old 25th September 2015, 17:18   #21
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

The Apache is a very impressive, if not to say imposing, helicopter. I’m sure they have had numerous upgrades because I think the prototype flew in the mid 80s or so. I think they started operational deployment in the 90s. My home country the Netherlands flies them too.

The avionics look and are very dated! About four years ago I landed my Cirrus SR22T at Topeka Regional Airport, or Forbes airport. Its a fairly busy airport and it also an active army/airforce base (former SAC). I always liked flying out there, because it had a nearly 13.000 feet runway which is pretty neat if you only need say 1200 feet and a great museum, the combat air museum. During the week there were nearly always military aircraft coming and going. So you find yourself lining up behind a B52, or F15, or holding short whilst a couple of F14 touch down. Pretty cool.

One day I landed and the (army) controller came on the radio asking me if I would mind taxing over to army/airforce side of the field, which I did. There were 6 Apaches out there and their crews. One of the pilots also flew Cirrus in his spare time and had been telling his buddies that the cockpit was more advanced then the Apache. So they asked me to come over and I showed them the Garmin Perspective glass cockpit.

http://cirrusaircraft.com/innovation...ive-by-garmin/

Got to sit in the Apache too, pretty cool!That camera is unbelievable.

Maybe they have upgraded the avionics by now.

Jeroen
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Old 25th September 2015, 18:16   #22
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by shalini_g View Post
I think the Russians are furious and going ahead with PAK for selling their attach helicopters and Sukhois.
The Russians are always willing to sell Pakistan these hardware and they are most willing to get them too. The sale is never going to materialize because they simply cannot afford these. In fact, their F-16s were all practically gifted by the Americans during the Afghan occupation of the USSR.

Also do keep in mind that our Su-30MKIs boast a custom avionics package that is built by several Israeli vendors plus Thales and Safaran of France.
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Old 25th September 2015, 19:07   #23
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

Whatever happened to our 'Make in India' program? Sad that this and several other defense purchases are not supporting the program. Maybe a portion of this can be true to the program. Or is defense sector excluded? Imagine the amount of Forex that can be saved.

India is one of the top 10 defense spenders in the world, approx 2.4% of our GDP!! Wonder why, so much when we need more on infrastructure which is at around 5% and Healthcare at 5%. We are the one of the lowest spenders in Healthcare. I hate to see all my hard earned tax money being spend on sectors that has no major impact on my daily life.

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Old 25th September 2015, 20:42   #24
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by mail4ajo View Post
Whatever happened to our 'Make in India' program? Sad that this and several other defense purchases are not supporting the program. Maybe a portion of this can be true to the program. Or is defense sector excluded? Imagine the amount of Forex that can be saved.

India is one of the top 10 defense spenders in the world, approx 2.4% of our GDP!! Wonder why, so much when we need more on infrastructure which is at around 5% and Healthcare at 5%. We are the one of the lowest spenders in Healthcare. I hate to see all my hard earned tax money being spend on sectors that has no major impact on my daily life.
Sir - with all due respect - the sole reason why you are even able to enjoy the freedom to type this is due to the 2.8% of GDP spent on this. Unlike most other countries we have borders with very unfriendly neighbors. Also the 2.8% includes to a large extent manpower costs (salaries, pensions, etc.) The cost of modernization is of course high as we haven't really spent a lot in the past 10 years for military hardware with multiple key projects on hold or cancelled.
The make in India is also for the defence sector. However these weapon systems are the 'need of the hour' to maintain our edge. A typical aircraft manufacturing line takes 7-9 years to setup.
We all are able to enjoy our 'daily life' due to the 2.8% spent on it. I think it is small price to pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmdas View Post
The Russians are always willing to sell Pakistan these hardware and they are most willing to get them too. The sale is never going to materialize because they simply cannot afford these. In fact, their F-16s were all practically gifted by the Americans during the Afghan occupation of the USSR.

Also do keep in mind that our Su-30MKIs boast a custom avionics package that is built by several Israeli vendors plus Thales and Safaran of France.
Spot on. Also the current Attack Helo's of the PAF/Army is the A1H SuperCobra which for all reasons is a light attack helicopter. The Apache has been recently updated with a partial 'glass cockpit' in the E version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The Apache is a very impressive, if not to say imposing, helicopter.....

Jeroen
It is a very good helicopter, which can take the fight to the enemy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjim13 View Post
I think on the next phase we would anyway get some for the Army Aviation Corps. We anyway would be using the Chinook's bought along to support the Army ops, especially in the north-east and would also help in transporting the soon to be acquired M-777 ultra Light Howitzers. (Again from the US)


Thanks for your detailed response, I think the interesting part would be what HAL would gain/loose here keeping LCH on the same side of Apache.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Is India getting the full spec fully loaded Apache or is it a version sans the Apache signature equipment?
It will be a mix of the Apache Longbow and Apache E versions. The LongBow is the radar system that makes Apache the fearsome beast it is (of course with the weapon systems). The Radar is mast mounted (above the rotor) and just has to open and activate it in LoS (with the rest of the helo being under cover) for a minute to take the battle map. If this is then datalinked to the other helos (including a mix of Apache and LCH here) they can then launch their LOBL (Lock on Before Launch) missiles (HellFire2/ HeliNA) from behind cover with the co-ordinates fed into the seeker system. They can then break cover and launch the LOAL (Lock on After Launch) type missiles (Hellfire/HeliNA again!) in the ensuing confusion after first salvo is fired. They can let loose the 80mm Armour piercing rockets and scoot. A mix of 2 Apaches (LongBow) and 8 LCH can wreak havoc (with 16 Hellfires and 32 HeliNAs + Rockets!). - Stuff Dreams are made of!


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Originally Posted by john doe View Post
I have never understood what use these attack helicopters have in the Indian Air Force or Army.

If you see any videos of these kind of choppers in action, it is against insurgents and terrorists in Iraq, Af., etc. India will never make the mistake of using its air power within its own borders ( made once before in Nagaland in the 50's )

Then where and against who? Pakistani and Chinese armies both have Stinger and equivalent missiles and excellent air defence capabilities. These attack choppers would be almost assuredly shot down. Remember Kargil where a Mig-21 ( but not the Mig 27 of Nachiketa) and a Mi-17 were brought down by shoulder-fired missiles, most likely Stingers.

Even extremely well armoured attack jets like the A-10 Warthog and the Russian Su-25( see the videos of the Russian-Georgian conflicts of recent years) cannot face professional enemies with a high level of confidence.

What then will these choppers do for India? Do we need these ? I vote for more buses to ferry the army school kids! The way the Ashok Leyland and TATA all wheel drive trucks are being mis-used for such duties, what are we going to have left for actual combat?
The helos can support armoured columns. They also play the role of Recce and can break up enemy armour formations. While the Stinger type missiles are a real threat these aircraft do have Counter measures that can be easily deployed.

In Kargil - the Mi8/17 were flying at the very limit (they are transports which are rigged with missiles after all) and were not very manouverable in the thin air of the mountains. Making them vulnerable. The LCH for example has been specifically designed to fight in the 'Hot and High' environment. Very recently it became the first Attack helicopter to land at Siachen FAB with a weapon equivalent load out.

The MiG that was brought down was also flying lower and was in typical dive attack profile when it was shot down.

Attack choppers are typically the 'guerilla warfare' element. Fly low, pop up and surprise - shoot and scoot. They also have adequate CMDS (both Flare and Chaff) to defend against MANPADS (Man Portable Air Defence) like Stingers (uses a Heat Seeker - Flares are counter measure). They also have survivable designs (the cockpit of both are armoured buckets with bullet proof glass fronts). Also MANPADS have ranges (in LoS) of 3-5 kms. For example the HeliNA (indegenous Anti Tank Helicopter fired missile - version of NAG) is slated to have a 7km range in LOAL type engagement with dual seeker warhead. The LCH has an airframe designed to be crash survivable at almost 20 m/s Rate of descent.

So yes, Attack choppers are very much still a 'power element' which can play both attack and support roles very well.
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Old 25th September 2015, 21:36   #25
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

For those feeling sad about this equipment not being a part of Make in India, do understand this is an accomplished heavy category warbird perfected over many decades & still being improved. Nothing like it is even in the planning stage over here. Infact we're yet to fully leg the LCH, which is an A-segment design. For such a nation to come up with an Apache like candidate, expect atleast anywhere close to two decades for that to happen with the kind of push we're dong now. Will you wait that much with the boundaries getting hotter by the month? Nope. Also, US wouldn't part with this kind of serious tech for local production. Unless trust level increases miraculously, maybe the maximum would be local assembly. But why do it for ~60 pieces? Thus off-the-shelf.

Same goes for Chinook. Our need for heavy lifters won't be as high as our other rotor transports. The Mi-17s does it well and we have a bunch of those. So, not much scope for local production either. Can't blame Russia for siding with China due to anti-western sentiments from many many decades, it's necessarily not against India. Soviets helped us during 71' coz US sided with pak. Now it's the other way, so no point in expecting eternal help from them. Times change. So we moved some eggs to another basket.

Military must've seen merit to choose these proven machines over the others. Who are us to question that right, afterall these machines are doing tough duty all over the world from quite long. Bonus would be more hands-on exposure to our lab guys, so win-win.

And to the gentleman who said "I hate to see all my hard earned tax money being spend on sectors that has no major impact on my daily life", you please enjoy the ease with which you were able to type it out for us, coz it was earned in blood by some good folks & still being paid for in same.

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Old 26th September 2015, 01:49   #26
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

Whoa. Those are really powerful ones. Thanks for sharing. Loved to read the capabilities that these posses.

At the time when drones are replacing manned combat vehicles, spending $10 billion on manned helicopters seems a little outdated. I know that is an amateurish comment. But the future is bet on drones. Ain't it !

And i believe the same or even more advanced weaponry is supplied to Pakistan, what is the use of buying from the same provider?

And did we take a loan from IMF for buying these. If yes, then its a twin deal sealing the fate of our nation both financially and militarily

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Old 26th September 2015, 10:28   #27
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by torquecurve View Post
A mix of 2 Apaches (LongBow) and 8 LCH can wreak havoc (with 16 Hellfires and 32 HeliNAs + Rockets!). - Stuff Dreams are made of!
Wow.. that sounds brilliant and a lot like Hollywood !!

Can't wait to see a pic with the combo flying together !!
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Old 26th September 2015, 10:49   #28
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

So this is a move to poke the Russians I guess.. Meanwhile Pakistan has replaced the American Cobras with Chinese Z-10 Thunderbolts: http://www.popsci.com/chinese-thunde...pters-pakistan

Chinese WZ-10:




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Old 26th September 2015, 11:39   #29
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

Looks beautiful.

Questions:
1. Any restrictions on their usage?
2. Why didn't we go for the Mi 28 or the Ka 50? How is the Apache better?
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Old 26th September 2015, 14:28   #30
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
Looks beautiful.

Questions:
1. Any restrictions on their usage?
2. Why didn't we go for the Mi 28 or the Ka 50? How is the Apache better?
Thank you for both your questions. I do not know about restrictions. Not likely as we are paying full $ but still a valid concern. Onto question #2. Helicopters like fixed wing aircraft are probably one of the most complex mechanical devices produced (I may be biased here as aviation puts food on the table!). A helicopter more so than a fixed wing aircraft. Development of a product to maturity with ironing out the snags and shortfalls in design takes 10 years of operational use and production line improvements. Two machines may have the same paper specifications they may even perform similarly in the most thorough test environments but deliver utterly different performance under continuous use in an operational area. The difference comes from humble factors such us maintainability, sustainability and survivability. These are the soft factors of design into which much effort of continuous improvement goes into. But it rarely gets discussed by journalists on whom we depend for our news feed.

If I were the IAF I wouldn’t pick either the Ka-50 or the Mi-28. The Mi-28 while a capable helicopter on paper (and I am sure, rugged too, going by Mil's design philosophy) has only 24 pieces in service with the home country 33 years after the first prototype flew. It says something loud and clear here. Maybe the Mi-28 is equally capable as the Apache though the IAF pilots and engineers found it short on 20 counts but it is clearly not a matured product by any stretch. The burden of snag rectification will fall on us at great cost as we discovered with the Folland Gnat. The Ka-50 is a more formidable machine on paper at least and has been adopted by the Russians in slightly greater numbers (about 120). The Ka-50 however got rejected at a much earlier stage as the fly-off was finally between the Apache, Mi-28 and Eurocopter Tiger. I am no voter for the yanks. Today both the yanks and the russkies are fair weather friends and we ultimately need to fend for ourselves which we have failed to do with respect to the IAF thanks to DRDO, HAL and their vice like grip. The Russians, today, sadly are very poor at executing on their obligations in both letter and spirit. I don’t know how many on this forum deal with Russians but I write from my own business experience. The only chopper that could have been competition was the Eurocopter Tiger but the Apache is battle tested and more powerful. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Rubbertramps View Post
At the time when drones are replacing manned combat vehicles, spending $10 billion on manned helicopters seems a little outdated. I know that is an amateurish comment. But the future is bet on drones. Ain't it !
Duncan Sandys, the UK's defence minister infamously declared the manned aircraft obsolete in 1957 saying that guided missile alone were the future and at a stroke of the pen cancelled all but two of Britain's aircraft development programmes. Without Government funding British aircraft industry rapidly collapsed and in a decade famous names such as Supermarine, Handley Page, de Havilland, Bristol, Vickers etc had disappeared and UK forever lost its preeminent position in aviation. Drones will have a role to play. They have been around 25 years and a guided missile which is a drone of sorts has been around for 70 years. All three will co-exist. But we should expect drone applications in civil life to go up.

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Originally Posted by SandyX View Post
And to the gentleman who said "I hate to see all my hard earned tax money being spend on sectors that has no major impact on my daily life", you please enjoy the ease with which you were able to type it out for us, coz it was earned in blood by some good folks & still being paid for in same.
Bravo. Well said.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
One of the pilots also flew Cirrus in his spare time and had been telling his buddies that the cockpit was more advanced then the Apache. So they asked me to come over and I showed them the Garmin Perspective glass cockpit.
Whenever you see a military aircraft carrying so called obsolete avionics look for the words ruggedness, reliability and ease of repair in the field. Also in a battle helicopter you want to be able to see all parameters with one fleeting glance of the eye and not have to tap to see they next bunch of data/parameters.
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