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Old 30th September 2015, 20:43   #46
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

On this day Today, 40 years ago, the Apache made its first flight!

So the IAF is buying a 40 year old design, many times upgraded. I hope you got a good deal!


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Old 1st October 2015, 00:05   #47
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While attack helicopters are also an inescapable requirement, with the present state of conventional military dominance over Pakistan the money could have been better spent on additional fighter jets ie the Rafaels. The fighter jets would have contributed better to a raw projection of power and an absolute Priority 1 addition to our rapidly diminishing ageing fleet. With the two front war no longer a figment of an active military imagination the fighters are what are required, more so till the LCA Mk 2 finally comes of age in 2020-25 timeframe.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 12:53   #48
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by ShellZee View Post
While attack helicopters are also an inescapable requirement, with the present state of conventional military dominance over Pakistan the money could have been better spent on additional fighter jets ie the Rafaels. The fighter jets would have contributed better to a raw projection of power and an absolute Priority 1 addition to our rapidly diminishing ageing fleet. With the two front war no longer a figment of an active military imagination the fighters are what are required, more so till the LCA Mk 2 finally comes of age in 2020-25 timeframe.
That's factually incorrect. Allow me to explain. Today's warfare is no longer about raw power projection or dominating defined enemies. Today's warfare is highly asymmetric, involving militas, military, local criminals, terrorists, jihadis and other kinds of elements. A Rafale jet will look good in airshows and give a good topic of discussion in defence forums but that's about it. Most of the threat we face today and in near future will be operations of the kind held in Myanmar and our border areas. A rapid response force, commando force and missions to intercept and kill will be the order of the day. A platform like the Apache fits in perfectly for operations such as these. In the long term we need to look at bulking up our airforce with modern jets but in the near future neither China nor us will look at fighting a conventional battle between us.
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Old 2nd October 2015, 13:50   #49
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by renegade004 View Post
the fact remains that the U.S. has not really built a successor to the Apache. IMHO, the reason is that the future belongs to the UAV or the drone. This is evident from the immense success drone-based operations by the U.S. have attained against the Taliban/Al-Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
perhaps India should consider investing in drones in the future, instead of attack helicopters.
Drones have been in full service for at least 20 years. They have come to the public notice only in the last few years due to the Yanks using it in Afghanistan and the attendant publicity. A missile is nothing but a one way drone of sorts with a warhead. A drone has value against an unsophisticated enemy. Against a better equipped foe its radio control (the only way to control & fly a drone) will be jammed by the defending force. What do you think would happen if the Yanks or the Chinese tried to fly a drone over Indian airspace? It would either be jammed or shot down like the Pakistani Dassault Atlantic maritime recce aircraft that strayed into our airspace some years ago. To imply that the drone will replace the manned aircraft is much like Sandys Duncan, the British Defence Minister declaring in 1957 that guided missiles had caused the manned aircraft to become obsolete.
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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Today's warfare is no longer about raw power projection or dominating defined enemies. Today's warfare is highly asymmetric, involving militas, military, local criminals, terrorists, jihadis and other kinds of elements. A Rafale jet will look good in airshows and give a good topic of discussion in defence forums but that's about it. Most of the threat we face today and in near future will be operations of the kind held in Myanmar and our border areas. A rapid response force, commando force and missions to intercept and kill will be the order of the day. A platform like the Apache fits in perfectly for operations such as these.
Well said Sir.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
On this day Today, 40 years ago, the Apache made its first flight!

So the IAF is buying a 40 year old design, many times upgraded. I hope you got a good deal!

Jeroen
Don't agree with your insinuation that this may be a bad deal. As you know better than me aircraft, at least the successful ones, undergo continuous upgrades through their lifetimes which keep them contemporary and modern and effective for decades not to mention in production too. Just because the Apache's prototype flew 40 years ago doesn't make it outdated what with engine and avionics and missile upgrades. Yes the basic airframe is a 40 year old design but that is structural & aerodynamic platform that is still holding good. The Boeing 737 first flew in 1967 its latest version the 737 MAX is getting ready to enter service and production is likely to continue past 2030. The F-16 Falcon first flew in Jan'74 and the latest upgrades are still in production. The Su-27 first flew in 1977 and its grown up brother the Su-30 is still in production. There are many more examples. The best of course is the Lockheed C-130 military transport - first flew in 1952 and still being made.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 2nd October 2015 at 14:00. Reason: Additions
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Old 3rd October 2015, 14:10   #50
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

Name:  IndiainksdealforApacheChinookhelicopters.jpg
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India has signed a deal to buy Chinook, foreground, and Apache helicopters. Illustration courtesy Boeing
Source: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...5891443563375/

As per UPI news website, India's Ministry of Defense has finalized a commercial direct sales order with Boeing for production, training and support of Apache and Chinook helicopters.

Under the order, India is to receive 22 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters and 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopters.

The order for the Apaches, however, did not include engines, Apache engines, weaponry and radar, which will come under a U.S. Foreign Military Sales deal, according to the Indian publication Business Standard.

As per Boeing India president's statement, This is a milestone in Boeing's expanding commitment to India, and this acquisition enhances the Indian air force's capabilities and offers us an opportunity to further accelerate 'Make in India.' Large sections of the Chinook fuselage are already manufactured in India and discussions are ongoing with our Indian partners to make Apache parts.

The value of the total helicopter deal -- including FMS purchases -- could be up to about $3 billion, the Business Standard reported.

Also as per vice president of Boeing's Defense, Space & Security in India, The Apache and Chinook represent the best of high-performing technologies that will modernize India's defense capabilities.
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Old 3rd October 2015, 15:56   #51
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

As per New Indian Express website, American aviation giant Boeing said it is in talks with Indian firms to manufacture parts of Apache helicopter, a day after it signed a contract with India for 15 Chinook heavy-lift and 22 attack choppers. It said the contract for production, training and support of Apache and Chinook helicopters will greatly enhance India's capabilities across a range of military and humanitarian missions.

India will receive 22 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters and 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopters. Both are the newest models of those choppers and the first one likely to be handed over to India in the next three to four years.

The acquisition offers Boeing an opportunity to further accelerate 'Make in India'. "Large sections of the Chinook fuselage are already manufactured in India and discussions are ongoing with our Indian partners to make Apache parts.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said that the contract, which will have a 30 per cent offset clause, will bring in business worth about USD one billion for the Indian Defence industry. At least 50 per cent of these would be direct export.

The Apache is a multi-role attack helicopter. The AH-64E Apache, the most modern variant also flown by the US Army, features enhanced performance, joint digital operability, improved survivability and cognitive decision aiding. The CH-47F Chinook is an advanced multi-mission helicopter operated by the US Army and 18 other defence forces.

India is the 14th nation to select the Apache and the 19th nation to select the Chinook. "The Apache and Chinook represent the best of high-performing technologies that will modernise India's defence capabilities," said Dennis Swanson, vice president, Defence, Space & Security in India.

The contract has a clause to place follow-on orders for 11 more Apaches and seven extra Chinooks. The helicopter deal has survived over 10 price validity extensions from the American side with the last one being for a month as desired by India.

While the Chinook helicopter deal is a direct one with the US firm, the one for Apache is a hybrid.

A part of the Apache deal was signed with Boeing for the helicopter and the other with the US government, under Foreign Military Sales route, for its weapons, radars and electronic warfare suites.


Article:http://www.newindianexpress.com/nati...cle3053875.ece
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Old 3rd October 2015, 22:04   #52
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Default IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Drones have been in full service for at least 20 years. They have come to the public notice only in the last few years due to the Yanks using it in Afghanistan and the attendant publicity. A missile is nothing but a one way drone of sorts with a warhead. A drone has value against an unsophisticated enemy. Against a better equipped foe its radio control (the only way to control & fly a drone) will be jammed by the defending force. What do you think would happen if the Yanks or the Chinese tried to fly a drone over Indian airspace? It would either be jammed or shot down like the Pakistani Dassault Atlantic maritime recce aircraft that strayed into our airspace some years ago. To imply that the drone will replace the manned aircraft is much like Sandys Duncan, the British Defence Minister declaring in 1957 that guided missiles had caused the manned aircraft to become obsolete.


Well said Sir.



Don't agree with your insinuation that this may be a bad deal. As you know better than me aircraft, at least the successful ones, undergo continuous upgrades through their lifetimes which keep them contemporary and modern and effective for decades not to mention in production too. Just because the Apache's prototype flew 40 years ago doesn't make it outdated what with engine and avionics and missile upgrades. Yes the basic airframe is a 40 year old design but that is structural & aerodynamic platform that is still holding good. The Boeing 737 first flew in 1967 its latest version the 737 MAX is getting ready to enter service and production is likely to continue past 2030. The F-16 Falcon first flew in Jan'74 and the latest upgrades are still in production. The Su-27 first flew in 1977 and its grown up brother the Su-30 is still in production. There are many more examples. The best of course is the Lockheed C-130 military transport - first flew in 1952 and still being made.

I did not say it was a bad deal. I have no insights into that.
Its a forty year old design that has received many upgrades, although I'm not sure what modification have been done on the basic fuselage. But it still remains an old design. No matter what. It might be perfectly fine for its intended purpose but it can not be called state of the art by any stretch of the imagination. At least not in my mind.

If it works for the IAF thats fine, why not. I don't think many air forces have been buying Apaches the last decade. Those that did in the past are beginning to phase them out or implementing the last upgrades. They might have different requirements and or budgets compared to the IAF.

I like old stuff, but on planes I would prefer state of the art over upgrades any time. I have very limited experience flying helicopters as a pilot, only a handful of hours as a student pilot. I have several hundred of hours as a helicopter passenger, but none of them on military aircraft. I am a huge fan of the 747, but I am typing this post at 38.000 feet in the upper deck of an Airbus 380 on my way to San Fransisco and it so much more roomier, comfortable and quiter than the old 744 even the 747-8. From a pilot as well as a passenger, new is nearly always better.

But admittedly its a bit of a philosophical debate. Although, the fact remains that complete new designs tend to get introduced in parallel to the old ones getting upgraded.

Enjoy your Apaches, they might be an old, dated design,but they are still the meanest looking helicopter around.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 3rd October 2015 at 22:07.
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Old 3rd October 2015, 22:44   #53
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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
That's factually incorrect. Allow me to explain. Today's warfare is no longer about raw power projection or dominating defined enemies. Today's warfare is highly asymmetric, involving militas, military, local criminals, terrorists, jihadis and other kinds of elements. A Rafale jet will look good in airshows and give a good topic of discussion in defence forums but that's about it. Most of the threat we face today and in near future will be operations of the kind held in Myanmar and our border areas. A rapid response force, commando force and missions to intercept and kill will be the order of the day. A platform like the Apache fits in perfectly for operations such as these. In the long term we need to look at bulking up our airforce with modern jets but in the near future neither China nor us will look at fighting a conventional battle between us.

Well that's a bit harsh. While I appreciate your research and your opinion, my take on the purchase are basically my personal opinion, accurate or otherwise. There is no WRONG OR RIGHT factually or otherwise in military tactics and strategy. That's what we are taught anyway. I'll elaborate a bit.
1. A 100 Apaches and Chinooks would not intimidate Pakistan or China but 200 odd Su30 MKIs and a 100 plus Rafaels definitely would. And like the Cold War has amply illustrated, it's not the actual war but the deterrent value of what you have that keeps an all out war at bay.
2. Most wars in the last three to four decades were won by Air Forces with the Armies aided by attack heptrs only mopping up.
3. The war against ISIL is as asymmetrical as it can get. Guess what arm is leading the assault, which now includes the Russians.
4. Ten Burmese operation was successful only because we entered a country with a friendly regime. Do you really think a couple of Chinooks under Apache protection can do that in Pakistan, let's not even get China into this debate.
5. A few hundred terrorists aided by a paramilitary force ie the NLI were able to bring down a gunship with a cheap Stinger in The Kargil conflict which was again an asymmetrical conflict. The Jaguars, a DPSA with their ground attack capability dented the defence potential enough in conjunction with Indian Artillery in a direct firing role for the Army to eventually take back the posts.
6. Helicopters no matter how capable with self protection suites are very vulnerable because they are slow, plain and simple. They won't last very long without fighter aircrafts ensuring favourable air dominance in advance to a Army/ heptrs assault.
7. This particular Apache purchase is for air cover to the armoured element in the three strike corps of the army and not for LIC hot pursuit operations. The air cover shall also follow establishment of a favourable air situation by the Air Force failing which the hepters will just be squatted out of the sky by the enemy Air Force.
8. Apaches and Chinooks with special forces operations are not likely to be used against Pakistan, let alone China. The moment they take off or show an intent of move towards enemy territory they will face resistance. The western border is so densely covered by sat and radars that every take off is recorded by both countries.
All this is not to say that we don't require the attack hepters or the heavy lift hepters but we require the fighters more. Ask any Air Force officer and he will tell you exactly that.
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Old 5th October 2015, 12:09   #54
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
I think this is beginning of a shift in strategy of India to look towards US and EU for supplies, instead of relying just on Russia and Israel like in the past.
Actually, US / EU hardware with Israeli avionics, fire control and other hacks is the best of both the worlds.

The only guys who actually made the Bradley Armoured Infantry Carrier into something useful were the Israelis. There's an eminently watchable movie on that!
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Old 8th October 2015, 09:04   #55
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Well that's a bit harsh. While I appreciate your research and your opinion, my take on the purchase are basically my personal opinion, accurate or otherwise. There is no WRONG OR RIGHT factually or otherwise in military tactics and strategy. That's what we are taught anyway. I'll elaborate a bit.
1. A 100 Apaches and Chinooks would not intimidate Pakistan or China but 200 odd Su30 MKIs and a 100 plus Rafaels definitely would. And like the Cold War has amply illustrated, it's not the actual war but the deterrent value of what you have that keeps an all out war at bay.
2. Most wars in the last three to four decades were won by Air Forces with the Armies aided by attack heptrs only mopping up.
3. The war against ISIL is as asymmetrical as it can get. Guess what arm is leading the assault, which now includes the Russians.
4. Ten Burmese operation was successful only because we entered a country with a friendly regime. Do you really think a couple of Chinooks under Apache protection can do that in Pakistan, let's not even get China into this debate.
5. A few hundred terrorists aided by a paramilitary force ie the NLI were able to bring down a gunship with a cheap Stinger in The Kargil conflict which was again an asymmetrical conflict. The Jaguars, a DPSA with their ground attack capability dented the defence potential enough in conjunction with Indian Artillery in a direct firing role for the Army to eventually take back the posts.
6. Helicopters no matter how capable with self protection suites are very vulnerable because they are slow, plain and simple. They won't last very long without fighter aircrafts ensuring favourable air dominance in advance to a Army/ heptrs assault.
7. This particular Apache purchase is for air cover to the armoured element in the three strike corps of the army and not for LIC hot pursuit operations. The air cover shall also follow establishment of a favourable air situation by the Air Force failing which the hepters will just be squatted out of the sky by the enemy Air Force.
8. Apaches and Chinooks with special forces operations are not likely to be used against Pakistan, let alone China. The moment they take off or show an intent of move towards enemy territory they will face resistance. The western border is so densely covered by sat and radars that every take off is recorded by both countries.
All this is not to say that we don't require the attack hepters or the heavy lift hepters but we require the fighters more. Ask any Air Force officer and he will tell you exactly that.

You can buy a B52 bomber in dozens but that too will not intimidate our neighbors. Can you really intimidate any country which has 200 plus nuclear warheads? That kind of my toy is bigger than yours works in defense forums not in real life sir.
In case of eliminating jihadi militants on our borders will F16 or Su 30 help? You buy equipment suited for the purpose, with the current state of warfare we are in, against non state actors, attack helicopters will be far more potent, working tandem with the army than a bunch of high tech fighters. In case a full scale war starts between us and Pakistan or China, the war would be started with missile attacks on major cities on both sides, and no amount of fighters can hope to stop these.
Do you really think India can't invade Pakistan and occupy it within a week? (with the current equipment only) Of course we can, however we won't because of the nuclear sword Pakistan has hanging over our heads, we don't want a war escalating into a nuclear holocaust.
In due course of time the airforce will be modernized, we need to maintain 45 plus fighter squadrons to handle both China and Pakistan, currently we are down to 36 and decreasing, but assets like fighter jets are costly and take time to procure. Even the 36 french jets on order will be delivered only in the next 3 years.

And lets not overrate Pakistan. US forces flew commandos with 2 helicopters right into their army training center to finish of Osama, but no Pakistani knew about it until the operation was over. Speaks volumes about their radar coverage and their preparation.

Last edited by apachelongbow : 8th October 2015 at 09:06.
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Old 8th October 2015, 15:09   #56
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You can buy a B52 bomber in dozens but that too will not intimidate our neighbors. Can you really intimidate any country which has 200 plus nuclear warheads? That kind of my toy is bigger than yours works in defense forums not in real life sir.
In case of eliminating jihadi militants on our borders will F16 or Su 30 help? You buy equipment suited for the purpose, with the current state of warfare we are in, against non state actors, attack helicopters will be far more potent, working tandem with the army than a bunch of high tech fighters. In case a full scale war starts between us and Pakistan or China, the war would be started with missile attacks on major cities on both sides, and no amount of fighters can hope to stop these.
Do you really think India can't invade Pakistan and occupy it within a week? (with the current equipment only) Of course we can, however we won't because of the nuclear sword Pakistan has hanging over our heads, we don't want a war escalating into a nuclear holocaust.
In due course of time the airforce will be modernized, we need to maintain 45 plus fighter squadrons to handle both China and Pakistan, currently we are down to 36 and decreasing, but assets like fighter jets are costly and take time to procure. Even the 36 french jets on order will be delivered only in the next 3 years.

And lets not overrate Pakistan. US forces flew commandos with 2 helicopters right into their army training center to finish of Osama, but no Pakistani knew about it until the operation was over. Speaks volumes about their radar coverage and their preparation.

I was talking real life in my reply. And no we can't take over Pakistan in a week with current equipment levels.
My toy is bigger than yours does work in real life.
And that the Army top brass in Pakistan was hand in glove with the U.S. in the Op Neptune Spear was debated extensively on the foreign media channels, always with the same conclusion. They made the right noises for some time and the issue eventually died out.
Both India and Pak regularly scramble interceptor aircraft for UAV intrusions and that is indicative of how well the Pakis cover their eastern borders and we our western.
In Operation Parakram our bigger toys intimidated the enemy enough for them to seek foreign intervention. And yes we did not go ahead with the Operation because our current equipment levels were not adequate to ensure an outright victory. At least the Army thought so. Only the Air Force was capable of and confident of ensuring air dominance and that too only for 7!odd days.
So unless you are saying that you have some insider information about the current equipment levels and capability I still stand by my opinion.
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Old 8th October 2015, 16:16   #57
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

Although there's another news that's doing the rounds with respect to jet fighter LCA Tejas. Apparently the GOI wants IAF to buy and make do with LCA Tejas Mark-1A due to lack of funds for buying Dassault's Rafale that has the IAF fuming. More details on the below links:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/49254515.cms

http://indianexpress.com/article/ind...tant-military/

http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/1...0S10D720151007

And here's another interesting article which highlights the standoff between IAF, ADA and HAL.

http://www.business-standard.com/art...1201951_1.html
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Old 8th October 2015, 17:23   #58
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Default Re: IAF's shiny new Apache Helicopters - India's $2.5 billion purchase

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
On this day Today, 40 years ago, the Apache made its first flight!

So the IAF is buying a 40 year old design, many times upgraded. I hope you got a good deal!

Jeroen

As for the Apaches, Boeing’s Vice President for Defence, Space and Security in India Dennis Swanson has pointed out that the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be getting the very latest of the helicopter, that is, AH-64E, which has recently been delivered to the US Army. This version has 26 modifications over the earlier AH 64-D model.

Lets hope for the best

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstor...Helicopter.htm
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Old 8th October 2015, 17:39   #59
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And lets not overrate Pakistan. US forces flew commandos with 2 helicopters right into their army training center to finish of Osama, but no Pakistani knew about it until the operation was over. Speaks volumes about their radar coverage and their preparation.
OT. But I would bet that at least some Pakis knew about the operation, and made sure that their forces acted too late to interfere. Of course, they got their millions and secured entry of their kids and grand kids to the Ivy League schools. You give too much credence to the American spin.

Btw, state of the art is fine. As long as others don't hack the system at will. There was a recent article about Cisco routers being hacked by MI6 to track terrorists. I would think that all Western systems have back door entries and that American systems come with constraints. We don't want a repeat of Argentina / UK / Exocet fiasco when we are fighting.

The best would be f(good or adequate capabilities) + f (what can be used as per our wishes) instead of f(best specs on paper) + f(limited control). IMO.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 8th October 2015 at 17:46.
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Old 8th October 2015, 23:13   #60
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And to add to my previous post. 200 or 1000, the qty of nuclear weapons does not really matter, what matters is an assured first delivery capability or in case of a no first use policy like India an assured second strike/ retaliation capability.

Taking the nuclear option is not that simple. Even a belligerent Pak will not use it unless their existence is threatened because if they use first they lose all the support they have including OPEC which they really can't afford.
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