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Old 5th June 2016, 15:57   #166
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Originally Posted by hangover View Post
I don't think a plane will break by doing a barrel roll. Planes are extremely strong.

It's possible there was very little fuel in it. Probably fumes. Only then can it roll over.

A plane on a commercial flight will have the inertia of a full tank of fuel.

s.

Rolling is actually a very docile manoeuvre that doesn't put much stress on the aircraft at all. Inertia isn't a big thing as the movements are relatively slow and don't surpass normal roll rates at all.

Fuel doesn't matter, what might be relevant is that you don't want to much fuel sloshing around. So you would probably keep a couple of tanks full, rather then empty.

But even so, a properly executed roll puts a steady but very small g-force on the plane. So everything stays more or less in place to start with.

Jeroen
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Old 7th June 2016, 21:53   #167
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I read somewhere that it is highly difficult for fighter pilots to make the transition and become airline pilots later on in life, and only pilots from the non-combat (transport) squadrons of an Air force can become successful airline pilots. Is that correct? Are there ex-fighter pilots in any airline?
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Old 8th June 2016, 04:47   #168
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I read somewhere that it is highly difficult for fighter pilots to make the transition and become airline pilots later on in life, and only pilots from the non-combat (transport) squadrons of an Air force can become successful airline pilots. Is that correct? Are there ex-fighter pilots in any airline?

Thousands of US army and airforce pilots make it into the cockpit of commercial airlines, including fight terrorism pilots. Not every fighter pilot who applies will make it. But their fall out ratio is considerably less then regular civilians.

Put differently, most airlines do like (fighter) army pilots. They are very well trained, extremely disciplined and typically very well motivated.

They do need to adhere to a commercial aviation regime rather then a military but for most that doesn't seem to big of a hurdle. I know several ex fighter jocks who are now captains on various types working for the big airlines.

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Old 9th June 2016, 19:01   #169
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Jeroen, SearchingHeaven, Sorry for off topic question, the GE 90-115 is supposed to be biggest passenger jet engine ever made and have seen the promo's where they claim to have air lifted the 747 test bed air plane with that one engine, if that is the case, why not use the same in a 747-8 or 747-400 and fly them in twin engine configuration as it accommodates more passengers in different configurations of course even though it will be slightly less fuel efficient compared to its 777 sibling ?

2. If you have any pictures of one of the most talked about captain jacob van zanten, request to please post here and if possible some insight about his early life etc, i agree he made a mistake in a rush and time constraint i am told he is one of the most respected captain in Netherlands.
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Old 9th June 2016, 21:49   #170
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Jeroen, SearchingHeaven, Sorry for off topic question, the GE 90-115 is supposed to be biggest passenger jet engine ever made and have seen the promo's where they claim to have air lifted the 747 test bed air plane with that one engine, if that is the case, why not use the same in a 747-8 or 747-400 and fly them in twin engine configuration as it accommodates more passengers in different configurations of course even though it will be slightly less fuel efficient compared to its 777 sibling ?



2. If you have any pictures of one of the most talked about captain jacob van zanten, request to please post here and if possible some insight about his early life etc, i agree he made a mistake in a rush and time constraint i am told he is one of the most respected captain in Netherlands.

You cant just change a four engine plane into a two engine plane. It will need a near complete redesign and recertification. Its just not viable.

Im not sure I would call van Zanten the most respected captain. He is best remembered for being the KLM Captain that caused the largest aviation disaster to date.

Its true that before the Tenerife disaster he was one of KLM top pilots and instructor.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaco...zen_van_Zanten

In all honesty I doubt there are many Dutch people who would recognize his name nowadays. Other then old aviation gits such as me. Remember this happened in 1977!

If you look up the various accident reports you will see that van Zanten made several mistakes and also completely ignored his co-pilot. The co pilot questions whether they have clearance and also believed the Panam 747 was still on the runway.

Earlier on on the cockpit voice record van Zanten and the flight engineer are belittling the co-pilot. Also, you wont find it in the report, but van Zanten had personal reasons to go home asap. To date more accidents happen on home bound flights then on outbound. Pilots, unconsciously, might take bigger risk when flying home.

If anything this KLM Panam disaster was the trigger for many changes in aviation. From more standardized radio communication, to the introduction of what we call CRM Crew Resource Management today.

Also, KLM introduced policies that would allow pilots to take time of, with full pay, due to personal situations. E.g. If you are a pilot and your wife is about to give birth they keep you on the ground.

As with any aviation disaster s lot of lessons learned were derived from this terrible tragedy.

I remember it very well. I grew up in Amstelveen a suburb of Amsterdam. In our neighborhood every other house had a family member working for KLM. Our next door neighbor was a KLM pilot. His son was my best friend. We used to cycle over to Amsterdam Schiphol to watch planes. His dad used to take us into the hanger and even on test flights. He was KLM engineering pilot on the DC8. In those days it was all a lot more relaxed then post 9/11.

The other thing I remember: the accident happened on a Sunday. My dad was a lawyer and when he arrived at his office on Monday morning all the telex machines had run out of paper. Endless American lawyers had telexed to my dad's office to immediately sue KLM. At that point in time nobody had a clue what had happened, that did not stop the Americans to start suing left right and centre.

Jeroen
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Old 10th June 2016, 07:48   #171
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Lovely thread. Great for lots of arm chair pilots.

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Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
3. When planes fly over my house, that's the time they usually get the landing gear down. In addition, I hear a "whooooo" sound from the engines that seem to sound separate from the engine sound. It sounds like the turbo whistle in cars. I've tried to identify it in various forums but I'm not able to explain it any better. It's an additional "whooooo" sound along with the engine sound. Does that make sense?
Is this the change is sound pitch when air brakes are deployed to slow down air speed? Typically heard before the landing gear is deployed around the time, I guess, aircraft comes into the landing pattern.
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Old 10th June 2016, 10:13   #172
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Lovely thread. Great for lots of arm chair pilots.



Is this the change is sound pitch when air brakes are deployed to slow down air speed? Typically heard before the landing gear is deployed around the time, I guess, aircraft comes into the landing pattern.
Yes, it's a definite change in sound pitch. It's almost like an other engine was turned on.
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Old 10th June 2016, 14:24   #173
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Earlier on on the cockpit voice record van Zanten and the flight engineer are belittling the co-pilot. Also, you wont find it in the report, but van Zanten had personal reasons to go home asap. To date more accidents happen on home bound flights then on outbound. Pilots, unconsciously, might take bigger risk when flying home.

The other thing I remember: the accident happened on a Sunday. My dad was a lawyer and when he arrived at his office on Monday morning all the telex machines had run out of paper. Endless American lawyers had telexed to my dad's office to immediately sue KLM. At that point in time nobody had a clue what had happened, that did not stop the Americans to start suing left right and centre.
Thanking you for the insights provided about the root cause, such news is generally considered classified and do not find their way in the final reports, but his cocky attitude plus his urgency to take off caused him to ignore the ATCC, which is a case that is not possible to happen at any cost.

But nowadays can air crafts still land and take off in dense fog banks on runways ? We do have auto pilot assist like Cat III or something ?

Americans trying to sue KLM is something that was expected at that juncture given the magnitude of the accident but i would like to tell you that I did get a chance to read the Pan Am's first officer who was involved speak up on the accident, i was surprised to see him talk very mild about root cause all he said was he saw the landing lights on and he was coming straight, he never pin pointed it was Jacob's fault, pretty strange.
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Old 10th June 2016, 15:52   #174
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You cant just change a four engine plane into a two engine plane. It will need a near complete redesign and re-certification. Its just not viable.
If the test bed was successful in terms of the engine performance being slotted on a airworthy frame why not re design and re certify the 747 to use only two engines in stead of 4, that way it has the advantage of competing with the 380 in terms of size with two engines less.

This is totally a enthusiasts dream, wish stray thought you may say take it no further, having air born for 4 plus hours in a 747 frame made me think on those lines.
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Old 10th June 2016, 16:29   #175
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

Lovely thread here. Great explanation coupled with some excellent pictures. Just FYI, I am a flight attendant and this is one of the first threads I read on Teambhp. Absolutely amazing, with great insights.

PS: By any chance, are you the same Syed I met at Central Diner at JFK T4 a couple of months ago? You profile certainly seems to suggest so.
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Old 10th June 2016, 16:41   #176
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Originally Posted by sriramr9 View Post
Thanking you for the insights provided about the root cause, such news is generally considered classified and do not find their way in the final reports, but his cocky attitude plus his urgency to take off caused him to ignore the ATCC, which is a case that is not possible to happen at any cost.
.
I dont believe there is such thing as classified information when it comes to aircraft accident investigations. There might be bits of information they dont use. Also, this is one area that has come a long way since 1977 as well.

The CRM and other factors I mentioned were simply never considered in those days. So it's not mentioned, not because it is classified, but because nobody was really aware of it, or thought it could be even a contributing factor. This particular accident is often seen as what triggered the CRM tough.

There are three different accident reports into this accident, From the Dutch, the Spanish and the Americans. Although they all depart from the same fact base data, they do come to some different conclussions. Especially in terms of who was to blame. In this particular case a lot of mistakes were made by all. Many aviation disasters are the result of a multitude of small things going wrong, rahter then one huge direct cause. (E.g. a bomb)

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But nowadays can air crafts still land and take off in dense fog banks on runways ? We do have auto pilot assist like Cat III or something ?
.
Yes they can. I'm not quite sure on how much visibility commercial jets require, but I'm pretty sue it's less then the runway length. So yes, planes could be taking of when another plane is still on the runway. And it does happen. Runway incurssions are still a significant problem, although, luckyily rarely accident happen.

Have a look:

http://avherald.com/h?search_term=ru...32&search.y=13

There are no autopilots involved in taking of on any commercial airliners that I'm aware of. Most will use autothrottle, to get the most effecient thrust for the runway length and aircraft weight. Some planes are equipped with a few instruments that provide optical guidance to the pilot to stay on the midlle of the runway.

If anything it would also require an infrastructure on the ground to provide very accurate lateral navigation to keep the plane in the middle on the runway. Equivalent to an ILS system for landing. There is nothing for take off.

I only know of a few planes that do take of on autopilot. The American F18 Hornet being the most famous as it takes off from an aircraft carrier on autopilot. The pilot is not allowed to touch any of the controls and puts his/her hands on supports.

Interestingly enough on the little planes I fly there is no legal visual take off limit when I'm flying under IFR rules in the USA. So that means, if I file a IFR plan and get a subsequent take off clearance I can, legally, take of even if the visibility is zero!!. Perfectly legal, not very smart, but still legal!

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Originally Posted by sriramr9 View Post
Americans trying to sue KLM is something that was expected at that juncture given the magnitude of the accident but i would like to tell you that I did get a chance to read the Pan Am's first officer who was involved speak up on the accident, i was surprised to see him talk very mild about root cause all he said was he saw the landing lights on and he was coming straight, he never pin pointed it was Jacob's fault, pretty strange.
Yes, expected. Though, I hadnt expected it within 10-12 hours of the accident. At that point in time it was totally unclear what happened, how many people were killend / survived'.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 10th June 2016 at 16:52.
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Old 10th June 2016, 18:13   #177
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Jeroen, taking the liberty of asking about CAT IIIB / IIIC landings.

What is the feeling for an airline pilot when you can't even see the runway until you touch down? Can you maybe describe the entire technology used and its practical reality for pilots?
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Old 10th June 2016, 18:40   #178
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Jeroen, taking the liberty of asking about CAT IIIB / IIIC landings.

What is the feeling for an airline pilot when you can't even see the runway until you touch down? Can you maybe describe the entire technology used and its practical reality for pilots?

I leave it to the pro's to comment on that. I have only flow various Cat landings on Full motion Simulators.
Landing in no visibility although technically feasible just doesn't happen I believe.

I'm a general aviation pilot with an IFR rating. So I don't use the Cat rating as such. In essence I would follow the descent profile to a predefined point (DH/DA) at which time you need to have visual contact with the runway to actually land. If not, you go around. There is a lot of detail and rules around what is considered visual contact with the runway.

I can tell you one thing though. If you have been flying in IMC conditions for a while including the approach it is a magnificent feeling to finally see that runway popping out in front of you before you have to go around!

Jeroen
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Old 10th June 2016, 20:46   #179
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Sorry guys for being inactive for a long time. I had a very hectic roster for the last 2 weeks, with a 5 on 3 schedule, shuttling between US and EU. And I don't know why, but jet lag has been troubling me more than it should from the last few days. And this is when I am on my usual dose of melatonin. Anyway, Jeroen sir has answered all the queries in the best possible manner.

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If the test bed was successful in terms of the engine performance being slotted on a airworthy frame why not re design and re certify the 747 to use only two engines in stead of 4?
While the 747 does look majestic with the 115B installed on each wing, remember that it is a 40 year old design. Latest technologies and advancements have ensured that aircrafts are more efficient aerodynamically and ergonomically. So no point in doing that.

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Jeroen, taking the liberty of asking about CAT IIIB / IIIC landings. What is the feeling for an airline pilot when you can't even see the runway until you touch down? Can you maybe describe the entire technology used and its practical reality for pilots?
There are multiple categories of ILS, depending on the decision height and visibility requirements. Approval for CAT II / CAT III operations is dependent on four elements in order to maintain the required level of safety - The aircraft, the airport, the flight crew and the operator. CAT IIIc, which has NO DH and NO RVR means that an aircraft can come in without seeing anything at all during the whole landing flare and roll out. CAT IIIc is not used in any airport worldwide. Details of the equipment involved with ILS is explained here.Link.

As far as the experience is concerned, I will tell you this - landing in low visibility using ILS is THE most exciting AND terrifying phase in a flight. And I say this after having practiced this maneuver in the simulator and real life many times. My mind and training says that you can trust the instruments even when you can't see anything. But my heart says, "What if"? The calmness in the cockpit, even when you can't see anything, is surreal.

I remember this incident which happened during my initial 777 days. We were flying into La Guardia in very low visibility conditions. RVR was down to 200 feet. We couldn't see anything outside. Anyway, tower cleared us to land CAT IIIb and I settled in for the final approach. At about 180 feet AGL, I thought I saw a flash of white light. Dismissing it as a figment of my imagination, I continued. However, when I saw the flash of light once again, it hit me - those were the strobe lights of an aircraft - on the runway.. From the moment I noticed the first flash to the go-around decision took 6 seconds at most. I still remember that incident very clearly. I called out "Going Around", pushed the TOGA switch and then called flaps 20. Now the thing with the GE90115B is that compared to other engines, it is a bit slow to respond due it high bypass ratio. I recall thinking - "oh God, please let this thing fly, please." Fortunately, God was listening. The engines reached their TOGA power in about 4 seconds and we climbed out almost vertically. This was THE most terrifying experience I ever had while landing in low visibility conditions.

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PS: By any chance, are you the same Syed I met at Central Diner at JFK T4 a couple of months ago? You profile certainly seems to suggest so.
Hi Ayesha, this is such a coincidence. Yes, I am the same guy you met at Central Diner at JFK. I was cribbing about the food, while you seemed to enjoy it. So how come you joined Teambhp?

PS: Thanks for the compliments.
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Old 10th June 2016, 20:59   #180
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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
As far as the experience is concerned, I will tell you this - landing in low visibility using ILS is THE most exciting AND terrifying phase in a flight. And I say this after having practiced this maneuver in the simulator and real life many times. My mind and training says that you can trust the instruments even when you can't see anything. But my heart says, "What if"? The calmness in the cockpit, even when you can't see anything, is surreal.
Thanks guys. CAT IIIb at Delhi:
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