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Old 4th August 2016, 15:05   #301
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
So once again, patience is advised, let us wait for crew reports and data readouts. This is not an aircraft that has disappeared in the middle of the ocean. It’s FDR’s are being recovered as we speak and the reasons of this crash will be out in a few days.
As you mentioned, no two landings are the same. The reason for this accident can be one out of hundreds or a combination of many. I hope that GCAA will come up with an answer soon. Till then, it is better not to speculate.

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  • Another point to note, specifically in this scenario, is that most of the people in this flight would have been Indian nationals, whose passport or documents would mean more to them than their life. Here is a tip for everyone: always remember to keep your passport, visa and a govt. issued ID card on yourself at all times, even when going to the washroom. Not in your carry-on, not in your checked in baggage. On you, in the pocket or in a pouch or whatever. Always.
In airliners.net also, there was a similar discussion regarding the accident. For people from India and south east asian countries who are working, especially in the Gulf region, passport is more valuable than their life. As you said, the best idea is to keep the documents with you all the time.
Most of the people do not pay attention to the safety briefing also, as if nothing is going to happen to them. But once disaster strikes, they literally freeze.
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Old 4th August 2016, 15:24   #302
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
And yet.despite all that, still they cleared the plane, the cabin of which was almost totally destroyed by the fire only a short time later, without fatalities. Miraculous! Or fantastic work by the crew.

I have to confess that I know that I would find it very hard not to pick up the small handbag containing the items you mention as well as one or two other valuables, even though I know I should not. But getting larger carry-on cases from lockers? I sympathise but Noooooo!

It may be insignificant, given that they have their lives, but these people will have suffered loss. In some cases, it might have been considerable. I don't suppose anything in the hold would have survived?
As you can see, the aircraft is charred, so I guess it depends on the location of the cargo. Some part of the cargo hold may have survived. The overhead bins are done with, I suppose. The airframe itself is a complete write off. Hull loss.

The cabin crew definitely were phenomenal. The evacuation was complete in less than 90 seconds and that actually means something in a aircraft with 300 pax, some of whom were trying to take out hand baggage while evacuation. Just for information, the FAA requires carriers and manufacturers to demonstrate than an aircraft can actually be evacuated in less than 90 seconds in such a scenario. And this does not involve olympic runners as passengers. It has old people, young people, stubborn people and those reluctant to jump off the slide.

The aviation industry in insanely regulated and incidents are taken very seriously. Compare that to the medical industry where thousands of people are killed each year by accident. Courts and insurance companies sort it all out, often just at the civil penalty level. Doctors and nurses often work 16-24 hours straight. We have strict down time regulations. The aviation industry is held to a much higher standard than many industries.
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Old 4th August 2016, 15:44   #303
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
In airliners.net also, there was a similar discussion regarding the accident. For people from India and south east asian countries who are working, especially in the Gulf region, passport is more valuable than their life. As you said, the best idea is to keep the documents with you all the time. Most of the people do not pay attention to the safety briefing also, as if nothing is going to happen to them. But once disaster strikes, they literally freeze.
I am a flight attendant, and I really find it abysmal when people do not follow rules. We were doing a high speed descent into Frankfurt in a 777 for a medical emergency, speed brakes out the whole way down. We announced multiple times on the PA asking everyone to stay in their seats so the medical team can get in. People kept getting up over and over to grab their bags. And of course even after getting people to sit down all over again, people got up when the medical team got on board and blocked them. Had to push them down in their seats physically. Seriously, how thick do you have to be not to understand the gravity of a medical emergency?

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Just for information, the FAA requires carriers and manufacturers to demonstrate than an aircraft can actually be evacuated in less than 90 seconds in such a scenario. And this does not involve olympic runners as passengers. It has old people, young people, stubborn people and those reluctant to jump off the slide.
Yes, and as you probably know, the evacuation demonstration and simulation includes the following points involving aberrant behaviors by passengers
  1. There may be very large, old or handicapped passengers whose movement times are significantly slower and who may be the cause of temporary (or permanent) blockages

  2. There may be passengers who choose to take luggage with them, which can be simulated by slowing them down or by having them occupy multiple resources (e.g. aisle slots.)

  3. A third behavioral feature is “kin behavior” in which groups of people, such as families stick together. This is simulated by linking individual entities (passengers) and having a group take up multiple spatial resources and / or move more slowly. This behavior will also increase the probability of blockages

  4. The fourth group of behaviors can generally be called ‘panic behavior’. These are characterized by irrational acts, such as freezing or pushing or going in the wrong direction, and hysterical outbursts. As far as evacuation is concerned, these behaviors can be very disruptive and cause time consuming blockages.
Not to be blunt or anything, but here is a comic that I believe should be shown on the safety cards and demonstrated by us before flights.
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Old 4th August 2016, 15:56   #304
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
It may be insignificant, given that they have their lives, but these people will have suffered loss. In some cases, it might have been considerable. I don't suppose anything in the hold would have survived?
I think for a large number of people, the loss would be significant. Since it was a flight to Dubai from Kerala (which is a huge source of workers for jobs in the lower end of the spectrum), the passenger profile would not be a typical airline passenger one. Pretty sure there would have been a lot of lower income passengers in that flight for whom losing documentation would probably mean losing/severely impacting their livelihood.

Hope the authorities provide special assistance to ensure the impact due to this is minimized.
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Old 5th August 2016, 12:09   #305
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
I think for a large number of people, the loss would be significant. Since it was a flight to Dubai from Kerala (which is a huge source of workers for jobs in the lower end of the spectrum), the passenger profile would not be a typical airline passenger one. Pretty sure there would have been a lot of lower income passengers in that flight for whom losing documentation would probably mean losing/severely impacting their livelihood.

Hope the authorities provide special assistance to ensure the impact due to this is minimized.
I agree 100%. Even for me (middle management, educated, understands how to work the bureaucracy), losing official documentation will result in a LOT of wasted time getting replacements. Can't imagine how bad it would be for the semi-literate worker.

See post in another thread by @searchingheaven: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post4028578 (Emirates 777 from Trivandrum crash lands at Dubai airport)

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Here is a tip for everyone: always remember to keep your passport, visa and a govt. issued ID card on yourself at all times, even when going to the washroom. Not in your carry-on, not in your checked in baggage. On you, in the pocket or in a pouch or whatever. Always.
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Old 5th August 2016, 20:09   #306
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

Answering now since I got busy with some work. I answer all questions assuming a lot of things. Of course, I may be wrong, please feel free to correct me. And I repeat, even as a pilot, I cannot and will not judge the crew's actions sitting in the comfort of my home. I am just outlining a set of possibilities that may or may not have happened.

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Oh well, that looks like the first hull loss for emirates? Or is it not? Quite shocking considering they had a good safety record all the while.?
Yes, their first hull loss in 31 years of operation. And with no fatalities.

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Touching down without gear is something totally amiss here. Even if they were going around, shouldn't they have retracted it later?
No way that aircraft was going to touch down without gear. If Flaps 25/30 are selected without the landing gear down and locked, then a loud gear configuration warning sounds. Also, the electronic checklist will not be complete & there will be EICAS warning as well. The only way a 777 lands without the gear down is if we want it to.

So let's get one thing out of the way. If the aircraft was coming in to land(and it was), then the gear was down and locked. Unless the crew made an error, or a series of unfortunate events occurred which led to the warning not being generated even when the gear wasn't down or wasn't locked.

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Originally Posted by coolboy007 View Post
The standard procedure is that as soon as a "Go around" call is given by pilot flying, he gives TOGA (take off- go around thrust), pilot non flying says "positive climb" after confirming that a/c is gaining altitude, pilot flying double checks to confirm it indeed is a positive climb and then only calls "gear up", the aircraft gains a lot of altitude during this period unless the go around was being done at a ridiculously low altitude.

TOGA thrust has immense power but these huge turbo fans do need a few seconds to fully spool up from near idle thrust during landing, it is impossible that the experienced crew put the gear up without even confirming a positive climb rate unless some weather phenomenon like wind shear brought that aircraft down..
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Originally Posted by airforce1 View Post
I believe wind shear was prevailing at the time of crash. OMDB metar 030900z 11021kt 3000 BLDU NSC 49/07 QNH 0993 WS ALL RWY TEMPO 35015 kt1500 DU. That is weather Dubai winds are from 110 degrees direction at 21 knots with visibility of 3 km blowing dust. No significant cloud was reported and temperatures of 49 degrees.
Now coming to the windshear part. First off, there are two systems which provide windshear warning, the PWS(Predictive Warning System) and the GPWS Windshear warning system. The Predictive Windshear System (PWS) is part of the weather radar system. It augments the GPWS windshear detection system. The PWS uses radar imaging to detect disturbed air prior to entering a windshear. Aural and visual alerts warn the crew of windshear.

The GPWS detects a windshear condition using inputs from aircraft systems including angle of attack (AOA), ADIRU, and Air Data Modules.The GPWS provides the aural and visual alerting signals for windshear conditions. The aural warning consists of a two-tone siren followed by the words “WINDSHEAR, WINDSHEAR, WINDSHEAR.” The GPWS windshear warning is the highest level, followed by terrain warnings, predictive windshear, and TCAS.

Now it appears that the crew initiated a go-around at the last moment, according to the ATC recordings. This fact seems indisputable. So we are left with two possibilities:
  • a go-around due to windshear
  • a go-around due to any other reason
The above two possibilities have different procedures. In a normal go around, the procedure is to call GO-AROUND, press TO/GA or advance throttles and then set FLAPS 20. Power is re-checked and then gear is retracted after establishing a positive rate of climb. But in a windshear GA, or a WS Recovery maneuver, the procedure is slightly different. No configuration changes are permitted until the aircraft is clear of terrain and all parameters are normal.

Quoting directly from my FCOM
Quote:
Windshear Escape Maneuver(Or Go-around due to windshear)

• Press either TO/GA switch
• Verify TO/GA mode annunciation
• Verify thrust advances to GA power
• Retract speedbrakes
• Monitor system performance
Do not change gear or flap configuration until windshear is no longer a factor
• Monitor vertical speed and altitude
• Do not attempt to regain lost airspeed until windshear is no longer a factor

With the first push of either TO/GA switch:
• the PFDs display roll and pitch guidance to fly the go–around
• the autothrottle activates in thrust (THR) mode for a 2,000 FPM climb
• the AFDS increases pitch to hold the selected speed as thrust increases
• if current airspeed remains above the target speed for 5 seconds, the target airspeed is reset to current airspeed, (to a maximum of the IAS/MACH
window speed plus 25 knots).

With the second push of either TO/GA switch:
• the autothrottle activates in the thrust reference (THR REF) mode for full go–around thrust.

• Maximum thrust can be obtained by advancing the thrust levers full forward if the EECs are in the normal mode. If terrain contact Is imminent, advance thrust levers full forward.
So if a GA was conducted, was it a normal GA or WS recovery? I say normal GA. How do I conclude this? Look at this photo.

Name:  WhatsApp Image 20160805 at 19.10.04.jpeg
Views: 574
Size:  115.6 KB

The flaps are set at 20. And we also know that the aircraft landed on its belly. So the gear was either retracted or collapsed on impact. If the GA was a WS recovery procedure, the flaps configuration would have remained at 25/30 and the gear would never have been pulled up. So we conclude on the basis of these two factors that it was probably a normal GA.

Now the question I ask myself is, if it was indeed a normal GA, why did the 777 not climb properly, with both engines operative? For this, I feel that there is only one plausible explanation. The temperature was 49 degrees, resulting in a very high pressure and density altitude. The crew pushed the TOGA once, resulting in the thrust levers advancing to THR, and not THR REF. The aircraft started to climb, with a nose high attitude, but due to extremely low air-speed because of the engine spool up time, wasn't able to generate enough lift and landed on its belly.

Or this could simply be a case of the go-around call being too late, pulling the nose up too quickly before the engines can spool up. The PF pushed the thrust levers full forward. But because they had some margin to stall speed, they begin to climb while bleeding their excess airspeed so the PF calls positive rate and PNF puts the gear up. Again, due to lack of airspeed and thrust, the aircraft falls flat on its belly.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Irrespective of what may have happened, hats off to the crew which handled a situation like this perfectly, without a single loss of life. It is indeed almost miraculous, and reinforces the very good survivability track record of the 777. It fell out of the sky from 100 feet and everyone survived, God bless the engineers and designers of this aircraft. Feel very safe and happy to fly a 777. Every airline should get a couple of these.

Last edited by searchingheaven : 5th August 2016 at 20:16.
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Old 5th August 2016, 20:49   #307
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Hats off to the crew who handled this situation so brilliantly.

But once again, people have shown the lack of common sense. Before any flight begins, the attendants announce safety briefing which we are supposed to pay attention to. Forget panic (that's understandable since no common man is trained for such a situation) but picking up luggage ? That's a big NO. I wonder why can't people obey instructions, especially when it concerns with their safety.
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Old 5th August 2016, 21:35   #308
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

One of our colleague was supposed to travel on Emirates on Thursday and when we showed this vid to him he had chills down the spine. But today he is there anyways
Very commendable work by the team and reassuring to an extent by the company.

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I wonder why can't people obey instructions
It is easier said than done mate.

Not everyone on board could be frequent travellers to understand the reality and obey orders verbatim. Presence of mind plays a crucial role in such situations whether to 'React' or 'Respond' first. Moreover, in their perspective, their baggage might have more critical items like medicines, addresses, gifts, etc.,

To each their own preciousness.
In the end, they all got saved and that is all that matters.
Thank God!
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Old 6th August 2016, 01:01   #309
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
No way that aircraft was going to touch down without gear. If Flaps 25/30 are selected without the landing gear down and locked, then a loud gear configuration warning sounds. Also, the electronic checklist will not be complete & there will be EICAS warning as well. The only way a 777 lands without the gear down is if we want it to.

So let's get one thing out of the way. If the aircraft was coming in to land(and it was), then the gear was down and locked. Unless the crew made an error, or a series of unfortunate events occurred which led to the warning not being generated even when the gear wasn't down or wasn't locked.
.
Not so sure. there are plenty of well documented cases where flight crews completely ignored every audio alarm warning. Planes have landed before with their gear up, warnings blaring and the crew just not noticing.


http://www.flight.org/gear-up-landings-and-pilot-error

Look at this, gear up alarm blaring and nobody noticing, right up to the moment they land with no gear down!



Here’s another story, luckily with a better end, but it got very close!

So, professional flight crews make mistakes, sometimes unbelievable mistake. They get distracted, don’t respond to their co-pilots, don’t respond to alarm etc. It has all happened multiple times, so lets not rule anything out yet.

At this point in time I would not rule out anything. Especially not something that has proven to be the cause of some serious crashes in the past in both GA as well as commercial aviation.

Jeroen
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Old 6th August 2016, 01:07   #310
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Not so sure. there are plenty of well documented cases where flight crews completely ignored every audio alarm warning. Planes have landed before with their gear up, warnings blaring and the crew just not noticing.

At this point in time I would not rule out anything. Especially not something that has proven to be the cause of some serious crashes in the past in both GA as well as commercial aviation.

Jeroen
You're correct, and that's why I included the phrase' unless the crew made an error'. But even so, I find it very difficult to believe that an EK crew could ignore a landing gear configuration warning. I have worked with them sometimes and have found them to be absolutely professional and meticulous at work. Their training is better than us by miles. But as you said, they are humans too and can make mistakes.
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Old 6th August 2016, 01:17   #311
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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
You're correct, and that's why I included the phrase' unless the crew made an error'. But even so, I find it very difficult to believe that an EK crew could ignore a landing gear configuration warning. I have worked with them sometimes and have found them to be absolutely professional and meticulous at work. Their training is better than us by miles. But as you said, they are humans too and can make mistakes.
Too true, it would be rare but it has happened

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
A
Now the question I ask myself is, if it was indeed a normal GA, why did the 777 not climb properly, with both engines operative? For this, I feel that there is only one plausible explanation. The temperature was 49 degrees, resulting in a very high pressure and density altitude. The crew pushed the TOGA once, resulting in the thrust levers advancing to THR, and not THR REF. The aircraft started to climb, with a nose high attitude, but due to extremely low air-speed because of the engine spool up time, wasn't able to generate enough lift and landed on its belly.
.
If I had to put a bet on it it would be along similar lines. What difference in thrust would you get between THR and THR REF. I thought even THR gets you 2000fpm or so? But then, I assume in most cases they would still have the flight director active and it would show the appropriate attitude for THR respective THR ref would it not Or the FD wasn’t active or ignored?

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 6th August 2016 at 01:31.
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Old 6th August 2016, 01:23   #312
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Just to add, in flight fires are pretty serious have had some notorious reputation:

Air Canada 797 - Fire from washroom flooded the cabin with smoke. Cabin flashed over after doors were open. 23 people lost their lives.

British AIrtours 28 - Flight hadn't even lifted off. Unconfined engine failure combined with wind direction, jammed exits. 55 lives lost.

So no matter how precious our things (excluding travel documents) are to us, they won't matter a single bit if we don't make it our alive.

Flying on 2 Emirates 777-300s back to back tomorrow, am curious to see how people react 3 days aftermath
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Old 6th August 2016, 01:53   #313
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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If I had to put a bet on it it would be along similar lines. What difference in thrust would you get between THR and THR REF. I thought even THR gets you 2000fpm or so? But then, I assume in most cases they would still have the flight director active and it would show the appropriate attitude for THR respective THR ref would it not Or the FD wasn’t active or ignored?

Jeroen
The difference between the THR and THR REF would be small, like 5% or so. But, maybe, just maybe, this combined with the engine transient time made the all the difference between the aircraft climbing and falling flat in 50 degree heat.

Regarding the FD being not active, I don't think there's any possibility of that happening. Disregarded maybe, but not active is not probable.

PS: I have heard rumors that temperatures are underreported in UAE. Thing is, if temperature rises above 50 degrees, all construction activities involving manual labor is stopped. So agencies regularly report lower temperatures than actual. Of course engines don't work on underreported temperatures. But I don't know if this is correct. Can RVD confirm? He flies Dubai sectors frequently.
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Old 6th August 2016, 04:04   #314
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by petrolhead_chn View Post

Not everyone on board could be frequent travellers to understand the reality and obey orders verbatim. Presence of mind plays a crucial role in such situations whether to 'React' or 'Respond' first. Moreover, in their perspective, their baggage might have more critical items like medicines, addresses, gifts, etc.,

To each their own preciousness.
In the end, they all got saved and that is all that matters.
Thank God!
While not everyone would have been frequents flyers, the practice of grabbing luggage from overhead compartments while the flight is taxing is like a disease in India. And this is done by majority of the people regardless of their flying history. Some flight attendants don't even stop them anymore. They just let the chaos continue because educated or not people are trained not to listen to instructions.

What if even a single life within the aircraft was lost because of delays caused by luggage grabbing? Would we still dismiss it because of first time flyers or "to each their own preciousness"?

A flight has crash landed and if that can't make value their lives more than their luggage, I don't know what will.
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Old 6th August 2016, 14:31   #315
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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A flight has crash landed and if that can't make value their lives more than their luggage, I don't know what will.
I can't imagine what state of mind I would be in after such a crash landing. Even with smoke swirling around me, I might just do automatic stuff like grabbing my bag. Or I might freeze up completely.

It is amazing that cabin crew must be able to handle all the possible reactions. It is even more amazing, considering that many of them will never have to do a real evacuation in a real emergency.
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