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Old 13th August 2016, 01:59   #346
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
During Takeoff and GA, if windshear is encountered, FD pitch command attempts to maintain the target speed. In the process of doing so, If the rate of climb reduces to below 600FPM then the FD commands 15 Degree pitch up. If the climb rate continues to decrease then the FD continues to command 15 degree pitch up until the speed corresponding to stick shaker is reached. It then commands pitch attitude which results in intermittent activation of stick shaker.

Please note that this is the logic on the 737 but I don't believe that it would be too different on the 777.
How does it now its encountered wind shear?
Do all 737ís have PWS installed? Is it the PWS that tells the system its encountering windshear or does it have different inputs?
Why would you want target speed during GA? Donít you want good vertical speed first and foremost (i.e. thatís what TOGA normally gets you)
thanks
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Old 13th August 2016, 23:17   #347
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
There is also a small doubt regarding the Boeing 777 automation which the thread starter can solve. As far as I understand for a 777 to perform a go around, the auto throttle must be fire-walled and the TOGA buttons pushed, to instruct the fmgc and the FD bar to perform the go around maneuver. If one accidentally pushes the TOGA buttons, but takes hands off the thrust levers, the airplane will command the thrust back to idle, giving rise to almost the situation the unfortunate aircraft found itself in. Also there seems to be some confusion regarding the exact auto pilot/auto thrust behavior during a bounced landing and subsequent go around. Some people claim that when the landing gear senses ground, the engines are inhibited from giving TOGA power for a 'x' number of seconds even if throttles are fire walled.
A TOGA push (on approach with flaps out of up or glideslope captured)

• activates autothrottle in THR mode
• disarms AFDS modes
• selects TO/GA roll and pitch modes
• arms or engages LNAV if an LNAV path is available
• second push – activates autothrottle in THR REF mode

There is no need to firewall the throttles manually if A/T is armed. A single/dual push of the TOGA will get THR/THR REF respectively. If a go-around is initiated before touchdown and touchdown occurs, we have to continue with normal go-around procedures. The F/D go-around mode will continue to provide go-around guidance commands throughout the maneuver. If a go-around is initiated after touchdown but before thrust reverser selection, auto speedbrakes retract and autobrakes disarm as thrust levers are advanced. Once you open the thrust reversers, you must make a full stop landing. There is always a risk of at least one of them not re stowing and then you likely have an uncontrollable airplane.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
What is not always clear is at what point in time during the landing you can still use the automated TOGA function. On the 747 it is after touchdown or if the airplane is below 5 feet RA for more than 2 seconds. But the minute you shove those throttles into the firewall you will get full thrust. Not sure what happens to the FD in such a scenario though?
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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
What does happen ( At least on the 737) is that if the aircraft senses ground mode for more than 2 seconds, the AT disconnects. As long as the ground contact is for less than 2 Sec, the AT will command GA power once TOGA is pressed.
On the 777, the TO/GA switches are inhibited below 2 ft. radio altitude until 3 seconds after radio altitude increases through 5 feet. During an automatic go-around initiated at 50 feet, approximately 30 feet of altitude is lost. If touchdown occurs after a go-around is initiated, the go-around continues. WE have to observe that the autothrottles apply go-around thrust or manually apply go-around thrust as the airplane rotates to the go-around attitude.

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Please note that the FD logic is different for a normal GA and a windshear GA.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Could you elaborate a bit on the difference between these two?
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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Please note that this is the logic on the 737 but I don't believe that it would be too different on the 777.
In a normal G/A, on the first push of TO/GA buttons, the FMA will say "THR". On the second push, the FMA will revert to "THR REF" i.e full thrust will be available.

But in a "windshear" G/A (where the aircraft has recognized AND given the warning of "WINDSHEAR, WINDSHEAR" ), I seem to recall that the FMA will be "THR REF" on the first push of the TO/GA button. The 2000 fpm logic is not applied.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
How does it now its encountered wind shear?
Do all 737’s have PWS installed? Is it the PWS that tells the system its encountering windshear or does it have different inputs?
Why would you want target speed during GA? Don’t you want good vertical speed first and foremost (i.e. that’s what TOGA normally gets you)
There is no separate equipment as such for the PWS. PWS is a part of the weather radar system. Weather radar uses radar imaging to detect disturbed air ahead of the airplane. PWS is enabled to provide windshear alerts 12 seconds after weather radar begins scanning for windshear. Prior to takeoff, PWS alerts can be enabled by pushing the WXR switch on the EFIS control panel.

Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review-pws.jpg

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Searchingheaven thank you for your detailed, lucid and patient answers on this most interesting thread. The quality of your answers raises the bar at Team BHP. Kudos.
Thank you Sir. That's a great compliment for a person with very average reading/writing skills. And the topping on the cake is that it comes from you.

Last edited by searchingheaven : 13th August 2016 at 23:23.
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Old 14th August 2016, 01:24   #348
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
How does it now its encountered wind shear?
Do all 737ís have PWS installed? Is it the PWS that tells the system its encountering windshear or does it have different inputs?
Why would you want target speed during GA? Donít you want good vertical speed first and foremost (i.e. thatís what TOGA normally gets you)
thanks
Jeroen
As already mentioned by Searchingheaven, the PWS is a part of weather radar system( So yes, all 737's have them along with the reactive windshear system). BTW, its a legal requirement for a TURBOFAN powered aircraft to have PWS as per CAR.

Regarding the speed, the AP and AT do try and maintain the speed and a minimum ROC. As you notice from my previous post, if the ROC decreases beyond a certain value then the speed is disregarded and the FD gives guidance of around 15 degree pitch up. Please note that all the while that the AFDS is trying to maintain speed if the vertical speed decreases, the AT keeps adding thrust to try and meet the ROC and the speed requirement. It will command upto maximum thrust ( same as pressing TOGA the second time) and only if the ROC still does not meet the minimum requirement, the logic will shift to maintain intermittent stick shaker speed.
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Old 14th August 2016, 02:37   #349
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
... ... the PWS ... as per CAR. ..., the AP and AT ... ROC. ... the FD ... AFDS .
Guys, guys!

Can you go a little easy on the abbreviations (and acronyms ) that are part of every-day life for you but a bit heavy going for us. It would make all this wonderful stuff even more accessible.

Oh, hey... Got most of them here and worked out a few more. What's PWS?

So carry on. As you were!
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Old 14th August 2016, 03:00   #350
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

So I am getting a lot of messages these days asking me how to become a pilot, what are the good schools and salaries. So I thought that I should write a post highlighting the details of my job and dispelling some common myths. Before we continue, you should know that becoming a pilot is not easy. It takes a lot of time and money. And aviation is a constantly unstable industry, so you need something to fall back on if something should happen. Having said that, let's start.

Becoming a pilot

I do not work for an Indian operator, and as such have very little information about Indian rules and regulations. So RVD, apachelongbow, coolboy007, ifly(Indigo), and flyboy747(Air India captain) will be able to give you a better idea of how to go about it in India. But if you're interested in getting trained in USA, I can help you out. Generally, the following steps are involved.
  1. Check your eligibility. You must be able to read, speak, write and understand English. The age requirement is 16 for student pilots, 17 for private pilots, 18 for commercial pilots and Flight Instructors, and 23 for an airline transport pilot. The ATP is the most important certificate. It requires 1500 hours of flight time, and is a requirement for airline pilots.

  2. As you're not a resident of the US, you will need to apply for a visa. Here is a link which explains this very well. Go through it. Link

  3. Decide what kind of training program you need. In general, there are two options. Assuming you have no flying experience at all, you will probably opt for an 'integrated' course which is known in the industry as ab initio, or, from the beginning. But go for a integrated course only if it is in collaboration with a major airline. The other option is to go for a collegiate flight training programs which include flight training and a college degree. These programs are often the most expensive of the flight training programs and take the longest to complete (about four years). But they are also the most rewarding.

    A word of caution: The regional airlines will hire you without a degree, the majors will not. You do not want to make a career out of regional flying. You go to a major airline (Delta, United, American, etc) the first chance you get. Better pay, real benefits, better quality of life, the list goes on. BUT the majors require a 4 year degree. The degree can be in anything. Also, you should get a degree in something useful that you can fall back on or use in your life. If you've a BE degree from India, then you can directly join an ab-initio program.

  4. The order of certification will be as follows:
    • Student Pilot
    • Private Pilot
    • Instrument Rating
    • Commercial Pilot Certificate: 250 hours minimum
    • Multi Engine Rating
    • Airline Transport Pilot: This is a requirement for commercial airlines. 1500 hours with 250 as PIC.
    • Type Rating: For specific aircraft, like the 737 or the A320 or whatever.
Costs involved
  • If you're going for a ab-initio program through a flight school, it will cost anywhere between $80000 to $100000 for the whole thing. Other than ab-initio programs, you can also obtain an ATP from a flight school and then get the type rating from another organization. Type rating for a 737/A320 will be around $16000 and for 777/A350 about $19000.

  • If you go for a college degree + flight training program, costs will be substantially higher. But you will have an advantage when applying for the big carriers.
Salaries

There are two things to understand here. First is to calculate the credit time, and then use the per hour rates to calculate salary. Unlike people with desk jobs, we are not paid when we aren't flying. It doesn't matter if we are sitting at the gate for reasons beyond your control like congestion, delayed passengers, weather etc. We may spend up to 16 hours in uniform, at the airport, and may only get paid for the block time. All those times you see your pilot in the cockpit while boarding, preparing the flight deck, doing the walk arounds, waiting in the terminal, he/she is working without pay until the cabin door is closed at the gate. This industry is hard to work in for some people, pilots especially. Like I said you really have to want it. If you want it, it will come easy.

How is the total flight time calculated?
  1. Block Time: This is the time from parking brake release to parking brake set. Block time is based on whatever time ACARS sends the data. In our case it's a combination of the vent flap on the L1 door being closed and the parking brake released that starts the block timer. When the parking brakes are set & vent flaps are opened again, the timer is stopped.

  2. Credit Time: This is the time for which the flight crew is paid or flight hours are counted. For most airlines, credit time is equal to the historical block time or the actual block, whichever is greater. For e.g Dallas to Heathrow historically takes around 8 hours and 50 minutes. But suppose we completed it in 9:30 hrs, then our total credit time would be 9:30. On the same lines, if suppose we had tailwinds and completed the journey in 08:10, we would be paid for the historical block i.e 08:50. Some airlines have minimum daily pay i.e a minimum number of hours per day are guaranteed even if you do not actually fly those hours.
How is the final pay structure?

There is a myth that pilots are paid very highly. Sorry to burst your bubble, but nobody in the industry is making $300,000. The few that used to make that much have taken huge pay cuts. Senior United guys are making well under $275,000 now, plus they've lost their pension. The junior ones are making far less than that. You can argue that it's a correction for years of inflated salaries, but in my mind they were always worth what they were paid. Pilots have a huge amount of responsibility, and had to survive years of very low pay to get to where they are. You can barely survive on the entry level positions. If you work for a smallish freight operation (not FedEx or UPS), you'll be lucky to break $50k/yr.

I have made a small table which lists the various positions + experience combinations and the kind of salary you can expect at a major airline for a Boeing 777. Although this is for my airline which is a major US carrier, you can expect something of this sort for most biggies, but adjusted for different aircrafts. Some points to note:
  • Per Diem pay: This is the extra money which we are paid by the hour every time we are away from our home base/airport. One critical difference between compensation received as per diem and compensation received as salary is the tax implication. While your salary is taxable, your per diem (up to certain limits) is not.

  • Intl Override pay: Pretty self explanatory. Paid only when on international duty.

  • In any consecutive 28-day period, a pilot cannot exceed 290 hours, of which no more than 100 can be block time. During 365 consecutive days, pilots cannot exceed 1,000 block time hours. Most of us do 65-75 hours per month. I have calculated the salaries taking a total block time of 75 hours per month.

  • As mentioned earlier, we are paid for block time, and not the total duty time. We might be at the airport 5 hours before the flights, and go home only 4 hours after landing, but we won't be paid for those 9 hours. As far as deadheading is concerned, some airlines pay 50-75% of scheduled block on a deadhead. We're also required to have a seat in the cabin, meaning we don't have to give up our seat and sit in the jumpseat to allow a revenue passenger on.

  • This table is for a Boeing 777. However, you can get a rough idea by using this rule of thumb. When calculating corresponding salary for a narrowbody like the 737/A320, subtract 20-25% from the monthly salary, For widebodies bigger than the 777, i.e 747 or the A380, add 10% to the monthly salary.
Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review-capture.jpg

Some important points to consider while planning your career in aviation
  • You need to be highly committed and tolerant of unusual working hours. A working day can vary from 4 hours to 13 hours, depending on the roster of the airline. Unexpected situations are a norm rather than an exception. There will always be someone who is down with flu, some aircraft which has a snag, some issue with the weather etc.

  • Long haul airline pilots like us spend a lot of time away from home. Be absolutely sure that you can live with this. It can be very difficult to lead a normal family life simply because you don’t always know when you will be at home. Every time I come back home, my 6 year old nephew asks me if will stay for a few days. And when I tell him that I have to go back in a couple of days, his eyes well up with tears. I find it very difficult to face such situations, although I have become kind of accustomed to it. It's a good thing that I am not married.

  • Short haul airline pilots have the most stable and predictable lifestyle. They generally have a fixed working pattern for several months ahead.

  • Your circadian rhythm is disrupted absolutely because of constantly adjusting to different time zones. International long-haul flying is difficult, no matter how you look at it. We traverse multiple time zones flying westward chasing the sun, making for brutally long sunny days, or fly in the opposite direction, creating the world’s shortest nights. For jet lag, melatonin helps a bit.

  • Although I have included a column in the table which shows the salaries in INR, do not use it for reference as such. Comparing your salary in USA and India is a waste of time. There is something called PPP, or purchasing power parity. The kind of lifestyle you can maintain for a given number is different in different places. And this holds true especially for two countries as different as USA and India.

In the end, it's all really up to you to determine if it is worth it. You have to want it. The lifestyle is hard, especially if you plan on or already have a family. It would only take you 3 years to get through all of flight school and accumulate enough flying hours through flight instruction to be qualified for the airlines. There is currently a shortage of pilots that is getting worse and worse by the day. So by all means, if it's what you want, there's no better time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Can you go a little easy on the abbreviations (and acronyms ) that are part of every-day life for you but a bit heavy going for us. It would make all this wonderful stuff even more accessible. What's PWS?
So sorry, apologies for this. We got carried away, as it happens. So let's see if I can explain PWS to you.

Basically, a PWS or a predictive windshear system is a weather radar based system which uses radar imaging to detect disturbed air ahead of the airplane. PWS is enabled to provide windshear alerts 12 seconds after weather radar begins scanning for windshear. When PWS is scanning for windshear, radar antenna scan sweep is reduced. In flight, weather radar begins scanning for windshear below 2,300 feet radio altitude and PWS alerts are enabled below 1,200 feet radio altitude. As opposed to the GPWS based windshear alert system, which provides immediate windshear alert when an excessive downdraft or tailwind is occurring.

PWS shows the areas of windshear on the weather radar display i.e the navigation display in the following manner. The red bands that you see are the areas where wind shear is predicted.

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There are various alerts and warnings that are generated in case windshear is detected. Here is a table listing all of them.
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Last edited by searchingheaven : 14th August 2016 at 03:07.
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Old 14th August 2016, 11:00   #351
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Guys, guys!

Can you go a little easy on the abbreviations (and acronyms ) that are part of every-day life for you but a bit heavy going for us. It would make all this wonderful stuff even more accessible.

Oh, hey... Got most of them here and worked out a few more. What's PWS?

So carry on. As you were!
Sorry about that. I was replying to a specific person who understands aviation and in the process, I may have gotten carried away. Anyway, for the rest : AP- Auto Pilot, AT - Auto Throttle, FD- Flight Director, AFDS- Autopilot Flight Director System, CAR- Civil Aviation Requirements, ROC- Rate Of Climb, PWS - Predictive Windshear

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Salaries
In India, we get a fixed pay till a certain number of hours ( Usually around 75Hrs) and thereafter we get payed overtime. Even If the company utilizes you for less than the fixed hours, you still get payed the full salaries. Other variable pay include : Night Halt allowance for every night that you are on a domestic layover. This is over and above the accommodation and meal allowance. Per Diem Pay for every night that you are on an international layover. Dead Heading allowance for each time that you dead head to either operate a flight or return to your home base after a flight. There are a few more allowances that are company specific.

BTW, you have wonderfully summed up the pro's and con's of the profession but we know that there is nothing else that we would do even for double the pay. All the hardships pales in comparison to the joy of flying.
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Old 14th August 2016, 14:53   #352
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

Thank you both very much. I have learnt about windshear here for the first time.

From my tiny (I was not good at it) meteorology knowldedge from amateur yacht sailing that, at the eye of a storm, actually not much is happening, and then whoosh, the wind comes from the opposite direction. And I know that such major systems are not going to be what is affecting landlocked waters or urban areas, which will have local winds influenced by many, many things. I'm always amused, and a bit annoyed, at the entirely wrong use by the media of "in the eye of a storm!" They think it is the roughest place to be, but it is not. Maybe politicians while crossing sides could be truly said to be in the eye of the storm, and should be ready for the opposing winds to hit them when they get to the other side! .

I've always enjoyed take off and landing. Sometimes disconcerting my companion with a gentle "Yeah!" as I feel the earth take over from the cross winds. The pilot is only doing what I understand from boats --- just at 100 times the speed and with something vastly bigger! But I know that he can handle that.

I don't argue with your assessment of the value of an airline pilot. I never knew that they were not paid when not flying, and that seems very unfair to me. On the other hand, as a retired senior citizen, I reflect that my salary barely exceeded $50,000-equivalent ever. The big difference is that I paid zero for my training, got paid all day even when I wasn't doing anything, got paid holidays, sickness, and all that "boring" stuff associated with office life. Oh, and even when I had really, really bad days, nobody died. In that respect, even a bus driver has more responsibility than I ever did.

(A friend of mine who is a chartered accountant once told me that he could not understand how a job could be so stressful --- but boring!)

So I take off my hat and salute you all, and I am sure you don't get paid enough.

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Old 15th August 2016, 01:32   #353
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I don't argue with your assessment of the value of an airline pilot. I never knew that they were not paid when not flying, and that seems very unfair to me. On the other hand, as a retired senior citizen, I reflect that my salary barely exceeded $50,000-equivalent ever. The big difference is that I paid zero for my training, got paid all day even when I wasn't doing anything, got paid holidays, sickness, and all that "boring" stuff associated with office life. Oh, and even when I had really, really bad days, nobody died. In that respect, even a bus driver has more responsibility than I ever did.

So I take off my hat and salute you all, and I am sure you don't get paid enough.
Hello Sir, I just want to clarify what I said in my earlier post. When I said that the pay wasn't enough for the kind of job on offer, I wasn't referring to myself. To be frank, the salary I get is more than sufficient for me and my parents. In fact, it is good enough for me to be able to support a couple of my relatives, who are going through hard times. Instead, I feel sad for the following two categories of pilots:
  • Regional carrier pilots: These people bear the same responsibility as us, do the same gruelling and demanding job that we do, and are more answerable to the airline management than we are. Yet, they make a third of what I make. This is the kind of disparity that I don't approve of. Colleagues who have passed from my flying school spent $100,000 + $30000 to get the type rating are struggling to make $40k to $50k per year. Even after 3 years of experience some are still paying their student loans. And the managment is very hard on them. A colleague flew for a regional airline. For the pilots at these airlines, every day is a battle. You're pushed and compelled to cut corners in the name of saving money. F/O at most regionals are paid $40 to $50 per hour, and they work for a maximum of 75-80 each month, so monthly salary comes to about $3000-$4000 per month. Some of them literally earn less than a MacD employee who usually gets $12 per hour and works for about 200 hours per month. And their per diem pay is a joke. $2.80 does not even get you a decent meal at MacD these days.

  • Senior captains: I really feel for these guys. These people literally dedicate their entire lives to flying. Their salary has come down over the years. Plus most of them have lost their pensions as well. The other thing is that as a senior captain, even if you're unhappy with your airline, you cannot do anything. If you leave your current employer for a new one, your new airline employer will start you at the bottom of the seniority list. Leaving your airline would cause you to have to start over at entry level wages and seniority at another airline.
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In India, we get a fixed pay till a certain number of hours ( Usually around 75Hrs) and thereafter we get paid overtime. Even If the company utilizes you for less than the fixed hours, you still get payed the full salaries.
Nice to know that. If you don't mind, could you write a post on "How to become a pilot in India". Some BHPians wanted to know about this in detail, so I thought of asking you since you would be a much better source of info than me. Specifically BHPians IndieSierra and TorqEbnezar.

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BTW, you have wonderfully summed up the pro's and con's of the profession but we know that there is nothing else that we would do even for double the pay. All the hardships pales in comparison to the joy of flying.
Thanks for the compliments buddy. What you've said is very true. And I repeatedly advise my friends not to go this profession unless they are absolutely passionate about aviation and becoming a pilot. You will accumulate serious amounts of debt and work for many years for very low wages. The only thing that keeps most new pilots working is their love of flying. If you don't have that passion, you'll find that the glamor aspect wearing off very fast. You will be tired, in tremendous debt, and will have wasted many years of your life. Believe me, you donít want to be there. If you like aircrafts, but are not committed towards professional flying, pursue another career. Simultaneously, join a local flying club or purchase your own GA airplane. You'll be much happier, and you can still enjoy flying. Just FYI, if you can buy a Mercedes E class or a BMW 5 series in India, then you can afford a Cessna 172 as well.
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Old 15th August 2016, 02:44   #354
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

Thank you for your interesting clarifications. I can understand your sympathy.

Many years ago I read a book (fiction or biography, or a mixture: I was never sure) about flying. This thing about senior captains starting at zero with a new airline, figured quite large in the story. This book would have been written decades ago, maybe 40 years. I'm surprised that the system is still unchanged.

Your insights continue to be amazing. Thank you again
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Old 15th August 2016, 08:33   #355
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Default Re: Boeing 777 - Pilot's Review

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
So I am getting a lot of messages these days asking me how to become a pilot, what are the good schools and salaries. So I thought that I should write a post highlighting the details of my job and dispelling some common myths. Before we continue, you should know that becoming a pilot is not easy. It takes a lot of time and money. And aviation is a constantly unstable industry, so you need something to fall back on if something should happen. Having said that, let's start.

Becoming a pilot

I do not work for an Indian operator, and as such have very little information about Indian rules and regulations. So RVD, apachelongbow, coolboy007, ifly(Indigo), and flyboy747(Air India captain) will be able to give you a better idea of how to go about it in India. But if you're interested in getting trained in USA, I can help you out. Generally, the following steps are involved.
Thanks. Let me add whatever I know about flying in India. Its purely based on the conditions here and I am not adding any personal bias.
1) Please don't become a pilot if you are thinking about the ancillaries, i.e the money (pretty good in India), the perceived glamour or the side benefits (traveling to multiple locations in India or elsewhere, staying in 4/5 star properties or even thinking about the 'beautiful' cabin crew). As I say to all people who ask me the classical question about becoming a pilot, my take is: its the hardest job in the world if you don't love flying, if you are passionate about flying, its the best job in the world.
2) We don't have a general aviation scene in India, so boys and girls pretty much graduate to the right seat of a jet or a turbo prop just after getting their CPL and learn on the job so to speak. Is this good? IMO no, but there is no choice. So for a 18/20 year old, getting to the right seat of a 320 or a 737 pretty much out of school and earning decent bucks is a norm rather than a rarity. Likewise due to the high growth of civil aviation in India, a junior first officer can graduate into a Captain within 4/5 years of joining and can turn into an instructor within 10 years of flying. So yes the growth is pretty rapid and the job is a decent well paying career choice here.
3) Now for the bad part. There are almost 7000 unemployed CPL holders presently and the total airline fleet stands at about 400/500 aircraft. So there is a long wait for a job and there are lot of CPL holders with huge loans who are working in call centers and the likes patiently bidding their time for a job offer. Will all of them get in? Definitely not. Plus a majority of them have also done some kind of a type rating which is an additional expense. Currently companies ask for a valid CPL with current IR and to pay for their own type rating so the costs of keeping current are high. A CPL with multi engine time, IR and a type rating costs anywhere between 70-85 lac rupees which is tremendous when one doesn't have a job at the end of it. Any entry pilot exam with say a vacancy of 100 pilots see about 3000-5000 people applying, so the competition is pretty intense. It pays if one knows someone within the airline you apply to, or if your family member is also a pilot, its pretty much a old boy network still.

So my personal analysis says, one shouldn't try and be a pilot if he/she can't fund their training from their own savings. If you have about 80 lacs spare and can afford to wait for a few years after your training, please go fly, for people who need to take a loan, kindly look at other career choices.
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Old 15th August 2016, 09:13   #356
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^^ I guess it will be a better prospect for youngsters to join the IAF/Naval/Army aviation, get trained for free, serve for about a decade and then become an airline pilot.

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Old 15th August 2016, 11:17   #357
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^^ I guess it will be a better prospect for youngsters to join the IAF/Naval/Army avation, get trained for free, serve for about a decade and then become an airline pilot.
Absolutely. Nothing like serving the nation, inculcating discipline and work ethics and getting a worthy career like joining the armed forces. However most of the young lot want to take the easy way out, papa's money, some 10 months at a flying school (preferably in a foreign destination), papa's jugaad and voila a job in an airline.
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Old 15th August 2016, 12:07   #358
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Thanks. Let me add whatever I know about flying in India. Its purely based on the conditions here and I am not adding any personal bias.
Appreciate apachelongbow for the candid advice.

Now, if someone's dad can spend around 80-90 lakhs (for CPL, current IR, type rating and staying current) and also has a jugaad or an influence (to get him/her a job), then that father can surely make him settle well into some other business / industry using this money and influence.

So, as apachelongbow said, it is better not to take up this profession unless one has a love (and aptitude) for flying. Any profession for that matter, shall be taken up only if you love it.

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Old 15th August 2016, 13:59   #359
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^^ That makes a Pilots job accessible only to the privileged and well heeled. No middle class or poorer fellow can ever hope to make it there. Should there not be government run schools for this? In comparison a merchant navy job is more easily accessible to everyone.

Another pre-condition in India for Pilot training is good marks in physics, and only science stream candidates seem to be acceptable. Why is that? I don't think it is necessary in the west.
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Old 15th August 2016, 15:06   #360
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^^ That makes a Pilots job accessible only to the privileged and well heeled. No middle class or poorer fellow can ever hope to make it there. Should there not be government run schools for this? In comparison a merchant navy job is more easily accessible to everyone.

Another pre-condition in India for Pilot training is good marks in physics, and only science stream candidates seem to be acceptable. Why is that? I don't think it is necessary in the west.
It is important for a pilot to know and understand well how the aircraft is able to fly. This needs knowledge of not only physics but also some fluid mechanics, some electronics, some meteorology and many more subjects of science. Hence the pre-condition.

To answer your other question, there is already an oversupply of the commercial pilots in the market. Why shall the Govt. start a school? Even if it does, the fees are going to be of the same order IMO because of no subsidies under the economic reforms.
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