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Old 4th January 2017, 12:04   #16
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Excellent article !!

Always interested to read about the METAL-KITES as shown in one of the videos.

So currently only SU-30 is capable to carry BRHAMOS in IAF?

Rated 5*****.
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Old 4th January 2017, 12:21   #17
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Smartcat - nice summarization and kudos for the effort.


there is a tiny bit correction, I think, about the MICA missile

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (- IAF has purchased close to 500 MBDA MICA air-to-air missiles that gives the aircraft a big edge in air-to-air combat. Game-changing features of MICA missiles -


* Has radar homing and infra-red homing (heat seeker) in a single missile.
MICA combines the capabilities of two types of missiles in a single unit, with a max range of 60 kms. [/quote]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

actually, there are two versions of MICA missile - the MICA-RF: Active radar homing and the MICA-IR: Infrared homing.
Both infra red and active radar homing are two different versions and one single missile cannot incorporate both these homing heads (it would be a sensory nightmare).

Last edited by nevinfrancis : 4th January 2017 at 12:29.
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Old 4th January 2017, 12:44   #18
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Nice Post Smartcat,very informative for people who want a real understanding of the IAF.

As pointed out by DragonHawk the Jaguar is a fixed wing aircraft not a Swing Wing Aircraft. Also the IAF has 51 (out of the 59 originally ordered) Mirage 2000s, its mentioned 40 in one of the graphs.

Comparing 60 year old B-52s of the USAF and the Mig-21s of the IAF is an apples to oranges comparison. Mig-21 are front line fighters of the IAF and would see action on Day 1 of any war and face the best fighters of the enemy. B-52s would likely never be deployed in the beginning of any war unless against some enemy like ISIS or the Taliban. Only when all potential threats have been neutralized would the USAF deploy B-52s.

Looking at the number of F-16s lost per year is a highly misleading figure.
Usually the number of planes lost per hours of flight is considered. This takes into account number of aircraft and also extent of usage.

For example the French Air Force Claims 1.5 crashes per 100,000 Flying Hours of the Mirage 2000 in the last 25 years.
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Old 4th January 2017, 12:57   #19
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2W-4W View Post
Excellent article !!

Always interested to read about the METAL-KITES as shown in one of the videos.

So currently only SU-30 is capable to carry BRHAMOS in IAF?

Rated 5*****.
For an aircraft to carry a 2.6 ton, 8m long missile in its underbelly, lot of structural strengthening work needs to be carried out. Su-30 being the frontline fighter, IAF asked HAL to modify Su30 as it has already manufacturing it under license in its Nashik plant. So far a flight test has been successfully completed and still series of testing needs to be carried out till it gets operational clearance.

Last edited by DragonHawk : 4th January 2017 at 12:59.
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Old 4th January 2017, 13:08   #20
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by DragonHawk View Post
For an aircraft to carry a 2.6 ton, 8m long missile in its underbelly, lot of structural strengthening work needs to be carried out. Su-30 being the frontline fighter, IAF asked HAL to modify Su30 as it has already manufacturing it under license in its Nashik plant. So far a flight test has been successfully completed and still series of testing needs to be carried out till it gets operational clearance.
Wow, I didn't know BRHAMOS is that huge. 8m translates to 24 ft. That means it is equal to a two-story building in height and weighing 2600 KG. Looks like it can take out an entire city. I can only wonder how huge USAF's "DIRTY Bomb" is.

Going by your knowledge on the subject, can you please let us know the cruising speed and max distance of BRAHMOS.
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Old 4th January 2017, 13:26   #21
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2W-4W View Post
Wow, I didn't know BRHAMOS is that huge. 8m translates to 24 ft. That means it is equal to a two-story building in height and weighing 2600 KG. Looks like it can take out an entire city. I can only wonder how huge USAF's "DIRTY Bomb" is.

Going by your knowledge on the subject, can you please let us know the cruising speed and max distance of BRAHMOS.
I am not an expert in this subject, but going by the information I have Brahmos is basically a cruise missile with a range of 250-300kms. It can be launched from an aircraft from 2000ft till 45000ft and each Sukhoi can carry only one missile. I believe there would have been a technical limitation with respect to downsizing the ramjet engine which powers Brahmos, this might have led to keeping the size of missile unchanged like its ship launched elder cousin. If they had developed a miniaturized Brahmos missile for an air variant then obviously Su30 could carry many missiles in its pylons depending on number of mount points it had. This I believe would have been game changer in terms of air launched cruise missiles technology in the world.

Last edited by DragonHawk : 4th January 2017 at 13:35.
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Old 4th January 2017, 14:02   #22
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Wow. Seriously informative thread packed with lots of interesting information. Couldn't wait to get back from work and finish reading. Ended up reading in my lunch break. Its very easy to bash the IAF for all the crashes and mishaps but your post really sheds light on the ground realities. Thank you sir for the wonderful post and a big thanks to the IAF for keeping us safe.
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Old 4th January 2017, 14:03   #23
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2W-4W View Post
Wow, I didn't know BRHAMOS is that huge. 8m translates to 24 ft. That means it is equal to a two-story building in height and weighing 2600 KG. Looks like it can take out an entire city. I can only wonder how huge USAF's "DIRTY Bomb" is.

Going by your knowledge on the subject, can you please let us know the cruising speed and max distance of BRAHMOS.
You can get all this info by just Googling:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrahMos

Max Speed: Mach 2.8–Mach 3 (3,400–3,700 km/h)

Max Range: 290–300 km


Don't know what you mean by 'Dirty Bomb' or read about it. The USAF definitely doesn't have one nor do I think any military of the world.

A 'Dirty Bomb' is a theoretical weapon than could be potentially be developed by terrorists. It combines conventional explosives with radioactive materials. An explosion would spread radioactive material in a large area and harm people by exposure to radiation.
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Old 4th January 2017, 14:32   #24
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
SEPECAT JAGUAR


- Jaguar is a "Swing Wing" design aircraft. The wings move perpendicular to the fuselage (to increase lift) at low speeds and move close to the fuselage at high speeds (to reduce drag). Other aircraft with swing wing design -
I'm afraid that's not correct. Jaguar is a fixed wing aircraft. MiG 23/27 has been the only swing wing aircraft in IAF service.
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Old 4th January 2017, 14:36   #25
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Excellent and thanks so much !

Another thread competing for the Dedicated Defence tech forum.

As you have mentioned, there are a lot of myths about our Air Force Hardware, and have seen in forums like defencenews.in or idrw.org where people without much understanding about our own forces praising the western or chinese inventory.

I think next in line should be our training aircrafts, helicopters and of course transport and support.
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Old 4th January 2017, 14:41   #26
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Excellent compilation. Just 1 correction, the 144 number of ordered for PAKFA/FGFA/T-50 are not confirmed yet and this is just a projection from what I have read on various forums and resources. This may or may not materialize depending on how the Russians progress with India's demands of an MKIsed PAKFA under development currently.
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Old 4th January 2017, 14:50   #27
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Great buildup now where's the rest of the story?!

I was reading this as a 5 year old would read up a Pokemon character guide.

With no interest or knowhow of fighter planes, you have suddenly sparked curiosity of what these mean machines are capable of. I'm hungry for more

Thread rated 5 deserving stars.
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Old 4th January 2017, 15:28   #28
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Brilliant thread smartcat.

Loved it to bits. Especially the details you mentioned about the upgrading of these jets. Good to know there’s so much work being put into them, especially when popular media has already branded them as obsolete. Great job. Keemp ‘em coming.
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Old 4th January 2017, 15:37   #29
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandrda View Post
Is that all?? what about Tejas, Rafale, Rudra, T50 etc. I know they have not entered the service but would love to know about them
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedguy View Post
However, would like to know more about Tejas, as it is matter of pride to have a Made in India combat aircraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjim13 View Post
I think next in line should be our training aircrafts, helicopters and of course transport and support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9thsphinx View Post
Great buildup now where's the rest of the story?!

Will update this thread later about Tejas, Rafale and PAK FA (T-50) later. Sukhoi stealth fighter is still under development though. And I will create a separate thread for other types of airplanes/helicopters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enobarbus View Post
I had the honour to be the last man posted out from the operating strength of a medium haul transport aircraft when the fleet was grounded for good. I was involved in the scrapping process of all spares and equipment belonging to that aircraft. Shockingly, a large number of components that were termed unavailable during the flying days of the aircraft were actually available in the warehouses. Things were that bad.
wow? No software for inventory management or supply chain management?

By the way, why doesn't IAF keep a large inventory of frequently used components for each type of aircraft? Would it be too expensive?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanmay K View Post
A thought occurred to me. If there are just 800 fighter jets in the country, most of the (lakhs of) kids dreaming of flying fighter jets for the country are going to be pretty disappointed. I may be wrong about how it works in the IAF, but I'm guessing the competition within the force to get to fly a Sukhoi must be super tough!
IAF is apparently facing a shortage of pilots. Also, I think the number of pilots needs to be higher than number of aircraft.

Even among Sukhoi pilots, I wonder if they crib about who gets to sit in the front (pilot) and who gets to sit at the back (weapons control)



Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonHawk View Post
This seems to be incorrect, Jaguar is not a Variable Geometry ground attack aircraft or generally known as sweep wing aircraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat View Post
As pointed out by DragonHawk the Jaguar is a fixed wing aircraft not a Swing Wing Aircraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
I'm afraid that's not correct. Jaguar is a fixed wing aircraft. MiG 23/27 has been the only swing wing aircraft in IAF service.
Will edit the post, thanks!



Quote:
Originally Posted by centaur View Post
While I understand each of these has their own +ves and -ves but on the whole, would you know which one can be considered the best with optimum trade offs between different capabilities and offering a wholesome pack?
IAF is probably the only air force to have three different categories of fighter aircraft.

Light Weight Category (Tejas)

* Lowest cost ($40 million)
* Made in India (no issues with spare parts etc)
* No need to seek permission from foreign companies for adding features or building XX numbers
* Low combat range & weapons payload means it is likely to used mostly for air defense (of cities, air bases etc) and close air support

Heavy Weight Category (Su-30MKI):

* $60 to $80 million per aircraft
* Russian aircraft (buys influence from global power, excellent air-to-air capability)
* High on maintenance & running costs
* Our friendly neighbor on the West has an habit of carrying out pre-emptive strikes on airfields (1965 and 1971). Large combat range means these aircraft can fly from their base in the heart of India, and engage hostile aircraft.

Middle Weight Category (Rafale & possibly F16/Gripen)

* Very expensive ($80 to $120 million)
* Western aircraft, high on technology
* Low on maintenance & running costs
* Can buy global influence if UK/France/USA aircraft is bought




Quote:
Originally Posted by nevinfrancis View Post
actually, there are two versions of MICA missile - the MICA-RF: Active radar homing and the MICA-IR: Infrared homing. Both infra red and active radar homing are two different versions and one single missile cannot incorporate both these homing heads (it would be a sensory nightmare).
Right! I will edit the post. I think it is a single missile, but two seekers are offered. Based on the mission, infra-red or radar homing can be chosen. "Interoperable Seekers" is the phrase used in the documentation.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/air-dominance/mica/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat View Post
Also the IAF has 51 (out of the 59 originally ordered) Mirage 2000s, its mentioned 40 in one of the graphs.
Out of the 50 Mirage 2000s we have, 10 are two seaters. FlightGlobal.com is classifying them as trainers. I guess they can be used in combat too.

Quote:
Looking at the number of F-16s lost per year is a highly misleading figure.
Usually the number of planes lost per hours of flight is considered. This takes into account number of aircraft and also extent of usage.
Aircraft lost per 10,000 flying hours for each aircraft in IAF after Year 2005 will give us a good idea about reliability of aircraft from different countries. I will try to dig it up.

The reason why "Year 2005" and beyond is important because Russian defense industry was in a terrible state between 1990 and 2005 (after the breakup of USSR). Putin and high oil prices brought back Russian defence industry from the brink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2W-4W View Post
So currently only SU-30 is capable to carry BRHAMOS in IAF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonHawk View Post
. I believe there would have been a technical limitation with respect to downsizing the ramjet engine which powers Brahmos, this might have led to keeping the size of missile unchanged like its ship launched elder cousin.
Air launched Brahmos like 500 kgs lighter, most likely because it doesn't need to carry as much fuel as land/sea based Brahmos. Unlike these, Su 30 MKI Brahmos is already in air and probably doing supersonic speeds at launch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat View Post
Don't know what you mean by 'Dirty Bomb' or read about it. The USAF definitely doesn't have one nor do I think any military of the world.
USAF doesn't have a dirty bomb, but it has the daddy of all bombs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43...ance_Air_Blast

Weighs 8 tonnes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPARKled View Post
Excellent compilation. Just 1 correction, the 144 number of ordered for PAKFA/FGFA/T-50 are not confirmed yet and this is just a projection from what I have read on various forums and resources. This may or may not materialize depending on how the Russians progress with India's demands of an MKIsed PAKFA under development currently.
Latest update:
http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/india...hter-aircraft/

Last edited by smartcat : 4th January 2017 at 15:48.
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Old 4th January 2017, 16:22   #30
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post

- Jaguar is a "Swing Wing" design aircraft. The wings move perpendicular to the fuselage (to increase lift) at low speeds and move close to the fuselage at high speeds (to reduce drag).
Hi Smartcat,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_XF10F_Jaguar

the SEPECAT Jaguar is not Swing Wing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-sweep_wing

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by Zappo : 4th January 2017 at 17:48. Reason: Fixed the quote
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