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Old 9th April 2017, 08:58   #136
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
I fully agree and support what you wrote. However the only party to fully blame is the great government of India. If any changes are to take place, it is they who have the authority and means to do it, not airlines and certianly not pilots or airport staff. Hence request you to blame the appropriate party in this case the central government and in particular the aviation ministry.

Thank you for your understanding of what I have been trying to convey. However I do not fully support the view that the airlines have no role to play in this . Some airlines has been pro active in safety issues and the best example was the old Air Traffic Control tower in Mumbai which was too close to the secondary runway and in non compliance with ICAO standards according to many airlines like Singapore Airlines (SQ). SQ just refused to fly to Mumbai when only the secondary runway was available and I believe QANTAS and United also took the same stance, Finally if I am not wrong the tower was demolished in 2013.
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Old 9th April 2017, 10:10   #137
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by TKMCE View Post
Thank you for your understanding of what I have been trying to convey. However I do not fully support the view that the airlines have no role to play in this . Some airlines has been pro active in safety issues and the best example was the old Air Traffic Control tower in Mumbai which was too close to the secondary runway and in non compliance with ICAO standards according to many airlines like Singapore Airlines (SQ). SQ just refused to fly to Mumbai when only the secondary runway was available and I believe QANTAS and United also took the same stance, Finally if I am not wrong the tower was demolished in 2013.
I will stop this now, to stop going OT. Kindly read up on the government directive regarding essential services. India based airlines cant stop going to any state/airport or stop servicing any particular passenger even. At best they can raise an issue with the regulator and hope their plea doesnt fall on deaf ears.
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Old 9th April 2017, 12:48   #138
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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AAI doesnt report into DGCA. unlike the FAA, the DGCA can only recommend in this case since airport operations are under AAI. Defence airports dont come under civilian control at all. .
Just a couple of thoughts:

In the USA aviation, but also other transport related accidents, are investigated by the NTSB. The NTSB only investigates and comes up with recommendations. It has investigative powers/authority, but nothing else.

The FAA, simply put, is responsible for legislation, the enforcement of the legislation and the operational running of various aspects of aviation. Notably ATC. For many years the debate has been running on whether the formal responsibilities of the FAA should be spilt into independent organisations.

I would think that in most countries defence airports don’t come under civilian control. That is at least the basic rule.

In the USA there are plenty joined/combined fields. So a military base is used for civilian aviation. In such a case the field needs to be certified. Effectively, for the pilots at least it becomes identical to other fields.

When a military base is not certified for commercial aviation and a commercial plane does land, it would always be in an emergency scenario as a last resort, because the crew has run out of better/other options.

A big differences between military and civilian fields is their fire suppression capabilities. E.g. a fighter base requires less, then a field suitable and certified to handle an airbus A380.

Military runways are usually quite appropriate for civilian use as well. (lengths, width, load carrying capabilities, lights etc)

In the USA, especially when you fly the planes I do, you often end up on fields handling both military and civilian planes. If we had guests I often took them to Topeka Regional Airport, only 30 minutes flying from my home base in Kansas City. The Kansas National Air Guard had a tanker wing out there. And it also meant quite often fighters would land and take off there as well.

Pretty cool to come in on my little Cessna and find myself taxiing between a KC135 tanker and a F15 Fighter! They have a very nice aviation museum too. The main runway is almost 4.000 metres! I use less than 10% for take off or landing. I could almost land side ways on that runway.

Jeroen

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Old 9th April 2017, 14:31   #139
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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This discussion is losing its plot and becoming quite silly really.

Now, coming back to the incident, it is most definitely an oversight by the AME to dispatch the aircraft.No AME would put his license on line to avoid repair. In this case, the delay and revenue loss is justified and they would have no problem in reasoning for the delay. Though, I completely agree that we as a nation do suffer from " Chalta Hai" syndrome but it is quite disappointing to note that any occurrence in Indian aviation is blamed on the "Chalta Hai" attitude without even waiting for the investigation to be over.

Every MEL repair is time bound. It is divided into four categories:
Catagory A: Repair needs to be conducted within the period mentioned in dispatch conditions.
I find the part in bold face rather annoying and unsubstantiated. And well, aviation safety discussion on an automotive forum is unlikely to follow an airline's technical standards. If you think this is silly, please propose something better. Can we please lay off the snark?

You are right in a way - I as the customer expect the%

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Old 9th April 2017, 15:52   #140
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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I find the part in bold face rather annoying and unsubstantiated. And well, aviation safety discussion on an automotive forum is unlikely to follow an airline's technical standards. If you think this is silly, please propose something better. Can we please lay off the snark?

You are right in a way - I as the customer expect the%
Airline standards in India are decently high. Comparable to the best on the world. I am not talking about the government elephant Air India btw. The standards need to be high to ensure leasors lend planes, insurance costs are low and overall risk is minimal. The issue is with the government who has his hands in unnecessary places. The infrastructure on ground is not keeping pace with the growth. Its like everyone affords and buys ferraris to drive on potholed Mumbai roads because bmc is incharge and it doesnt want to repair or develop roads.
The beauracracy and infrastructure need to be built fast. Mumbai and Delhi for example needed new big airports 5 years back, but we are still using ww2 airstrips with glitzy terminals.
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Old 9th April 2017, 18:04   #141
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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RVD...
There are quite a few more. And you still want to insist that everything is hunky dory in Indian aviation???
Please point me to where I have mentioned that Indian Aviation is all hunky dory. I made no such remarks. Just trying hard to change the perspective of people who think that everything with Indian aviation is wrong and that accidents/incidents happen only in India.

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I find the part in bold face rather annoying and unsubstantiated. And well, aviation safety discussion on an automotive forum is unlikely to follow an airline's technical standards. If you think this is silly, please propose something better. Can we please lay off the snark?

You are right in a way - I as the customer expect the%
Well, no one expects the discussion on an automotive forum to follow an airline's technical standards but surely one can expect people to show some restraint before bashing the industry without having any idea about its functioning. Our public wants the moon from the airline and then some. You happily say that you want all the snags to be made public and repaired at the first opportunity and yet, you probably wold be the first to complain about flight delay for your business meeting. Do you have any idea as to how many MEL's there are ? Let me tell you that even a small bulb not working during daylight hour also comes under MEL. You want the airline to fix that so that you feel happy that there are no snags on the aircraft? Surely, an aircraft manufacturer knows what is safe and what is not,no ? Do you realize why people like searchingheaven have stopped contributing to this thread. Its precisely for this reason. If you are not familiar with something, you ask and not make assumptions. Its a basis of a healthy forum.
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Old 9th April 2017, 18:43   #142
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

A first person account by a passenger who was on the Imphal Guwahati Delhi flight of Air India which got diverted to Jaipur due to Delhi fog and crash landed in January 2014 . This came out in India today.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/air-india-flight-delhi-to-jaipur-airbus-a320-burst-tyre/1/334802.html[/url]

The official accident report is out in the DGCA website.

Yes RVD, accidents do not only happen in India. but we still have a lot to learn on how to handle passengers who were unfortunate enough to be involved in one, don't we?. Even in the Jet incident at Goa, as per the original poster, most passengers had to wait till 1730 hours , 12 hours after the accident , to get back to Mumbai. Do you consider this as airline standards comparable to the best in the world apachelongbow?
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Old 9th April 2017, 19:08   #143
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Well, no one expects the discussion on an automotive forum to follow an airline's technical standards but surely one can expect people to show some restraint before bashing the industry without having any idea about its functioning. Our public wants the moon from the airline and then some. You happily say that you want all the snags to be made public and repaired at the first opportunity and yet, you probably wold be the first to complain about flight delay for your business meeting. Do you have any idea as to how many MEL's there are ? Let me tell you that even a small bulb not working during daylight hour also comes under MEL. You want the airline to fix that so that you feel happy that there are no snags on the aircraft? Surely, an aircraft manufacturer knows what is safe and what is not,no ? Do you realize why people like searchingheaven have stopped contributing to this thread. Its precisely for this reason. If you are not familiar with something, you ask and not make assumptions. Its a basis of a healthy forum.
Here's the issue - the problem is that you are overreacting and not taking the discussion forward. Life is not all black and white. I wasn't pretending to know it all - would be good if you asked questions to understand what others are posting, instead of chastise them for saying it, or throw in irrelevant trivia (small bulb = MEL).

Ironically, my post got corrupted as I was editing it. Funnily enough, you also reacted when it would be obvious to a casual observer that the post is incomplete.

Let me repeat the part that got corrupted. No one is saying put in irrelevant metrics or asking the companies to blindly cancel flights (with the ensuing chaos). But of course, there are MELs which are serious in nature. Your own post said Category A MELs have a time limit. Let's call them category A-HP (HP = high priority) which need to be attended to within 12 hours. I'm sure that list can be pulled up within minutes.

Adherence to this list can be one way of tracking safety orientation. Again, the question is which of these MELs were exceeded (Go Air's flight would be one). Think of it as management by exception. Would that stat not reveal a cavalier attitude on the airline's part?
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Old 9th April 2017, 19:32   #144
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Every human activity or organization operates at some degree of perfection and with some degree of room for improvement. The aviation industry is no different. Whether the service or product you purchase is a railway travel or an insurance or a medical surgery or a TV or a software or advise from a consultant/lawyer - all of these and thousands more will with the greatest human effort get to only a certain degree of perfection. Same with aviation whether in India or abroad. In fact aviation is one industry that has integrated globally and is constantly re-examining itself for improvements in flight safety and to its credit has made flying safer than a whole lot of other human products or activities. Will it ever become 100.000% safe - the answer is no, never.

The aviation professionals on this thread - apachelongbow, RVD, searchingheaven and I are no where saying that the Go Air AME/pilot or airline are right or should be forgiven. Nor have we said all is perfect with Indian aviation - in fact many of our posts talk of room for improvement. I even spoke in one post of the challenge of running a 5.5 sigma operation (an airline in India) when the environment around you is barely at 3 sigma or worse. The exchanges here have sadly slipped from away from being a healthy discussion.

Every time we fly we run the risk of an accident of some very tiny percentage and risk of a fatality of an even lower number. Just like every time you drive in India you run a risk (a much higher one I suspect) or every time you visit a doctor there is the small chance the diagnosis will be incomplete and so on. Can Indian aviation be improved, of course it can and it should. Between 1945 and 2015 ie over 70 years the total fatalities in Indian civil aviation (not counting terrorism) were 2329 - every death is sad and that's the number including three known closely to me. I do not know what the denominator is - ie the total pax flown in these 70 years but from what I can guess it will be a number around 1.3 billion plus or minus 10%. Till we choose to fly in India that is a statistic of risk we all live with 2329/1,300,000,000 or about 1 chance in half a million. We all want it to improve (and ratios in the West are far better) but till then I am willing to live with it without venting a rant against the industry and painting every sad incident as a universal disease that afflicts every flight and every crew and every C check.

PS: the number of railway fatalities in India in 2014 alone was 27,581. Sharing a reference point as Indian airlines operate under the same social, educational, government, attitudinal and economic environment. I go back to an earlier point of let us not under estimate what it takes to operate at 5.5 sigma in a 3 sigma environment

Last edited by V.Narayan : 9th April 2017 at 19:40.
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Old 9th April 2017, 19:56   #145
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Here's the issue - the problem is that you are overreacting and not taking the discussion forward. Life is not all black and white. I wasn't pretending to know it all - would be good if you asked questions to understand what others are posting, instead of chastise them for saying it, or throw in irrelevant trivia (small bulb = MEL).

Ironically, my post got corrupted as I was editing it. Funnily enough, you also reacted when it would be obvious to a casual observer that the post is incomplete.

Let me repeat the part that got corrupted. No one is saying put in irrelevant metrics or asking the companies to blindly cancel flights (with the ensuing chaos). But of course, there are MELs which are serious in nature. Your own post said Category A MELs have a time limit. Let's call them category A-HP (HP = high priority) which need to be attended to within 12 hours. I'm sure that list can be pulled up within minutes.

Adherence to this list can be one way of tracking safety orientation. Again, the question is which of these MELs were exceeded (Go Air's flight would be one). Think of it as management by exception. Would that stat not reveal a cavalier attitude on the airline's part?
My last attempt in trying to put a point across. I overreacted because your statement(" this is what happens when our chalta hai attitude meets MEL'S") casts a serious doubt on the attitude/work ethics of people working in the safety critical area of aircraft operation. I would have been fine had you just used this case in isolation rather than generalizing. There are people out there who work tirelessly to make aviation safer. Your statement was pure irresponsible. Now, coming to the high priority maintenance items, they are dealt with in accordance to its merit. No reason why that has to be put into public domain. How many time did you ask for the maintenance schedule of a train, bus or car that you last traveled in ? Unfortunately our passenger mentality is very different when it comes to flying. Anyway, I am out. Happy flying.
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Old 9th April 2017, 22:43   #146
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by TKMCE View Post
A first person account by a passenger who was on the Imphal Guwahati Delhi flight of Air India which got diverted to Jaipur due to Delhi fog and crash landed in January 2014 . This came out in India today.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/air-india-flight-delhi-to-jaipur-airbus-a320-burst-tyre/1/334802.html[/url]

The official accident report is out in the DGCA website.

Yes RVD, accidents do not only happen in India. but we still have a lot to learn on how to handle passengers who were unfortunate enough to be involved in one, don't we?. Even in the Jet incident at Goa, as per the original poster, most passengers had to wait till 1730 hours , 12 hours after the accident , to get back to Mumbai. Do you consider this as airline standards comparable to the best in the world apachelongbow?
It's futile to reply to you who have made up their mind to bash up airlines and pilots without an iota of how aviation works. Carry on your 'good work';just like other aviation related members I am off this ridiculous discussion

Last edited by apachelongbow : 9th April 2017 at 22:46.
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Old 9th April 2017, 23:41   #147
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Seriously.."apachelongbow" what have I done.? You started off by saying there were no recommendations in the Mangalore crash. There was a whole chapter of them.

When I pointed out one which if there was an implementation accross airports could possibly have resulted in a faster reaction time to the Goa accident, you blame it on the Navy.

You then start blaming the entire problems of Indian aviation on the parliamentarians and say airlines have no role to play.When I point out the example of Singapore Airlines and the Mumbai control tower you change tack and say that Airlines in India have to fly to all airports.. Yes, sure that is why airlines like Indigo with its fleet of 100 aircraft still do not fly to places like Leh or Bhopal which are perfectly capable of handling the aircraft they have.

If this is the" professionalism " of sone of the aviation professionals in this forum I have no further comments on the subject

But just because a few of us do not fly an airliner ,do not assume we do not know anything about aviation and should not say anything backed up with documented facts contradicting the stance of "aviation professioals" here. Except for a first person account of a passenger who was aboard the Air India aircraft which had the accident at Jaipur I have not quoted anything from the media either..The report of that accident was put up in the DGCA website a couple of months back. Have you read the same? If so can you rebut all or even half of the findings of that inquiry?


And let me conclude by saying that in 1982 a close family friend along with her infant son was on board" Gaurishankar" which crashed at Mumbai. Both of them survived but 15 passengers and 2 crew members on that aircraft lost their lives. I have started following the airline safety issues in India (and globally) from then. Now just because I don't fly an airliner doesn't mean that I have no clue about aviation as you state and have my views rubbished by more than one of you "professionals" here as arising from ignorance


Thank You

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Old 10th April 2017, 01:14   #148
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Seriously, if you know you are going to get breathalysed why can't people lay of the booze?

Bit worrying that this seems to be a continuous ongoing struggle with Air India doing particularly poorly.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/58094828.cms
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Old 26th May 2017, 22:38   #149
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Another AAIB (Aircraft Accident investigation Bureau) incident report is published on the DGCA website.

A Jet Airways Bangkok Delhi flight in 2015 had the commander taking ill enroute. The Boeing 737 handed safely at Delhi with the First Officer being assisted by an A330 commander of the airline who was travelling on the flight in the passenger cabin. A doctor on board helped in giving medical aid to the pilot.


Main DGCA concern relates to the diversion not being done to the closest suitable airport . As per the report , aircraft should have ideally diverted to Kolkatta or Lucknow.


Not commenting more as I had enough of the "experts" here bashing me on this thread for merely stating information given out in published official reports about other incidents.

For anyone interested in knowing more, the report is not long and not technical either due to the nature of the incident. The report can be accessed through the DGCA link given below.

http://www.dgca.nic.in/accident/repo...JFA_052017.pdf.


Those who have read Arthur Hailey's first work- originally a Teleplay "Flight into Danger" (also published as "Runway Zero Eight") may find something familiar.

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Old 27th May 2017, 00:35   #150
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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A Jet Airways Bangkok Delhi flight in 2015 had the commander taking ill enroute. The Boeing 737 handed safely at Delhi with the First Officer being assisted by an A330 commander of the airline who was travelling on the flight in the passenger cabin. A doctor on board helped in giving medical aid to the pilot.


Main DGCA concern relates to the diversion not being done to the closest suitable airport . As per the report , aircraft should have ideally diverted to Kolkatta or Lucknow.

Thanks. It doesnít happen that often, but itís far from rare either. Given the number of flights in the world at any time you are bound to get some crew members becoming ill during flights. (and passengers for that matter)

Have a look at all these cases:

http://avherald.com/h?search_term=in...27&search.y=16

No idea why they did not divert to other apparently nearer alternates. Luckily they had a doctor on board, so his/her advise might have some bearing on what they decided.

I know if I became ill on a flight, I would prefer to land in Delhi then any other town in India. So as long it wasnít critical Iíd say fly on!

Jeroen
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