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Old 10th January 2017, 09:27   #31
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Before I start, let me just state that I am a pilot for a US major, and fly a Boeing 777 for a living. Which is quite similar to the 737-800, the aircraft involved in the accident.
"Jet Airways’ pilot’s act in Goa was as miraculous as landing the aircraft on water"

http://www.jantakareporter.com/india...rpg4c.facebook

Last edited by GTO : 10th January 2017 at 10:40. Reason: Removing quoted part which has been deleted
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Old 10th January 2017, 09:27   #32
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Hello 1lokesh, you and all the passengers and crew members have been really lucky to have come out of the incident safely.

I completely respect your sentiments towards such a horrifying experience.

However, being a technical person I tend to agree with searchingheaven as well.

Basically, we all react to situations in a different way, so often in such a state of mind our subconscious behavior is lot different than the normal behavior that we may portray.

The crew (assuming younger than you) also must have experienced this for the first time, though trained, the situation would had made them tremble and hence even opening the first aid was difficult for them. You seem to be lot in control and hence could help, great.

But let me just put you in a situation where let say you were in the middle of the aircraft, not the third to evacuate but had about 30 people ahead of you then even your behavior would have changed. you might have got panicky, pushing people, praying and trembling before you get to evacuate; thus completely changing the scenario.

I recently attended a Life Savour workshop where i was taught to give CPR and use AED device. Believe me even to give CPR to a dummy raised my heartbeats, not sure how i will behave when i am put in a situation where i need to give it to one of my close ones. Trust me, it takes a lot of courage and patience to act in such situations.

Enjoy your Life and if possible believe that everyone tried to do their best in that situation and to now judge that best is futile. continue to count your blessings and try to come out of those nightmares.

Celebrate Life, we all have only one, including the pilot, crew, that pregnant lady, the bruised boy, those taking selfies and those helping others.

God Bless

Last edited by noopster : 10th January 2017 at 17:36. Reason: flyingheaven = searchingheaven :)
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:43   #33
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
searchingheaven, I am very glad that you came to the thread to bring some actual knowledge. The rest of us, on or off the flight, should realise that we are in no way qualified to do anything other than vague speculation about what happened, how, why and who was responsible. Maybe its human nature to make guesses, though. Lets admit that they are guesses.
Well put. The things that we read and write in media are nothing but harmless banter based on public domain information. Nobody is immune to speculation and people generally discuss what may have caused such events based on available information, purely to satisfy their intellectual curiosities. As long as DGCA or FAA is not legally bound to include such public domain speculation in their official investigation, we have nothing to fear.

Also, some level of speculation (or educated guesses) is healthy. It ignites excitement about aviation (or any other field), and encourages people to explore those areas. If I don't talk anything about these things at home, my kids would never get interested in anything and dismiss everything as routine.

I wish /u/searchingheavens post had come earlier, so that it could have served as the starting point for further discussions.
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Old 10th January 2017, 11:03   #34
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

@misquitas: Thanks for the photos. A question that I have to the pilots on the forum. I am quite tall at 6'4" and for me the best seats in the aircraft are the Emergency exit seats. In all the flights that I have taken I must have sat on the Emergency exits for 95% of the time. That means that I always get the safety briefing on how to operate the Emergency exit.

And each time I have been told "Open the handle down and pull the red lever, the door will come off. Throw the door to the front of the aircraft. The slide will deploy automatically - if the slide does not deploy for any reason, pull the small lever to manually inflate the slide. .... "

I dont see any slides deployed on the over-wing exits. I also read that many people were injured because they jumped off 8 - 10 feet to the ground.

Questions:
1. Why didnt the slides deploy ?
2. If the slides did not get deployed for whatever reason, shouldnt the crew have directed passengers to use the 4 other exits (2 at front and 2 rear)
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Old 10th January 2017, 11:26   #35
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Originally Posted by GJ01 View Post
@misquitas: Thanks for the photos. A question that I have to the pilots on the forum. I am quite tall at 6'4" and for me the best seats in the aircraft are the Emergency exit seats. In all the flights that I have taken I must have sat on the Emergency exits for 95% of the time. That means that I always get the safety briefing on how to operate the Emergency exit.

And each time I have been told "Open the handle down and pull the red lever, the door will come off. Throw the door to the front of the aircraft. The slide will deploy automatically - if the slide does not deploy for any reason, pull the small lever to manually inflate the slide. .... "

I dont see any slides deployed on the over-wing exits. I also read that many people were injured because they jumped off 8 - 10 feet to the ground.

Questions:
1. Why didnt the slides deploy ?
2. If the slides did not get deployed for whatever reason, shouldnt the crew have directed passengers to use the 4 other exits (2 at front and 2 rear)

1. The aircraft in question is a 737-800 and the over-wing exits do not seem to have slides built into the emergency exit doors. That said,over-wing exits can safely be used in case of an evacuation. I am not sure if the flaps have been deployed on the wings,which in turn eases out the over-wing evacuation.

2. Operation of the slides is left to discretion of the crew who will assess based on the condition of the plane and surroundings. In this case,all slides on the LH&RH;Fore&Aft have been deployed

Apart from this,the vilification of the crew by the OP and several other media outlets before any report from DGCA is no less than appalling.@searchingheaven has perfectly summarised the thoughts from a crew standpoint. I follow news from this field quite regularly and runway excursions on landing/takeoff are far too common,to the tune of 2-3 per week,across the world. It does not take away the safety hazard involved though.

Pax not following the exit procedures by carrying their belongings with them and blaming the crew for their inefficiencies thereafter is unfair to say the least. Retrieving baggage will hamper the evacuation process and will be a question of life and death in case of a fire. Case in point,EK521 in Dubai

Revverend

Last edited by SDP : 10th January 2017 at 12:03. Reason: Deleting duplicate post
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Old 10th January 2017, 12:23   #36
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

On the 07th of April 2015, I too faced nearly 2 hrs of hell in mid air (read between heaven and earth).

I had boarded the Air India Express (IX-537) from Trivandrum to Abu Dhabi. Just 15 mins after take off the pilot came on the PA with the news that the landing gear wasn't retracting. Since the landing gear would create drag we wouldn't be able to make it to AUH and hence we are flying back to TVM. So far so good :-)

Then came the next shock "since we wont be able to land with full fuel, we would have to burn it off in mid air by just circling around for 2 hrs".

Suddenly some good samaritan voiced his doubt (loudly)"What if the landing gear is stuck?". This sent a chill down my spine. Most of us were getting really tensed. But left with no other option we prayed to The Almighty for his grace and benevolence.

Finally after nearly 2 hours of nail biting we were finally ready to land. And as he flight hit the tarmac we could see emergency vehicles with flashing lights all around the runway.

Those 2 hours were pure hell. Later the AI Express officials offered us another flight for next morning, but since I was totally shaken, I somehow wanted to get back to my family. So I opted for a refund and rescheduled with another operator.
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Old 10th January 2017, 12:36   #37
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

The recent movie Sully is a good example of why we should not try to second guess the pilot after the incidence. In that case, the NTSB itself was convinced that water landing was unnecessary. Ultimately, the pilot was proven right.
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Old 10th January 2017, 12:39   #38
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Quote:
Originally Posted by revverend View Post
1. The aircraft in question is a 737-800 and the over-wing exits do not seem to have slides built into the emergency exit doors.
I dont think thats the case. From what I understand "all" commercial aircrafts will have slides on the overwing exits. From a safety perspective, these slides actually double up as rafts in case of a water landing. Just 4 rafts will not be enough to accommodate all passengers +crew (full capacity will be in the range of 150 - 180)

The only reason that I can think of is that there was fire / smoke in the engines. But if that is the case, the exits should not have been opened in the first place. I do not want to speculate here so maybe inputs from our Pilot community will help.

I also completely agree about discipline - the videos of the Emirates emergency landing with people being more concerned about their overhead baggage rather than their lives shows that irrespective of how you get trained as a cabin crew on safety / evacuation procedures, I doubt any training would prepare you for the experience where passengers are more concerned about their bags than their lives.

Note: I do not want to start a storm here. I am not indicating or implying that any such thing happened on the Jet flight. But while we go about taking swipes at Pilots and Cabin crew being underprepared or not having a clue what to do, we must also realize that in the end they too are facing this situation for the first time - I dont think the evacuation drills they practice will have uncooperative passengers not heeding to their instructions.
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Old 10th January 2017, 14:11   #39
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ01 View Post
I dont think thats the case. From what I understand "all" commercial aircrafts will have slides on the overwing exits. From a safety perspective, these slides actually double up as rafts in case of a water landing. Just 4 rafts will not be enough to accommodate all passengers +crew (full capacity will be in the range of 150 - 180)
Incorrect sir. I have attached the evacuation procedure handout for a B737-800 which clearly shows that there are no over-wing exit slides and pax need to exit the door and slide down the rear portion of the wing.The flaps are to be set at 40 (Max) as per the evacuation SOP by the flight crew which allows passengers to slide down the flaps onto the ground

A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway-zs0bg.jpg

The slides "double" up as rafts but evacuation from the aircraft is the primary process. I doubt if the capacity of the slides as a raft decides the number of slides in the aircraft.

Quote:
"Open the handle down and pull the red lever, the door will come off. Throw the door to the front of the aircraft. The slide will deploy automatically - if the slide does not deploy for any reason, pull the small lever to manually inflate the slide. .... "
This briefing is consistent with Indigo and Vistara which predominantly operate A320 aircraft wherein the door detaches and a slide is deployed. In B737 aircraft (Majoirty of Jet domestic fleet),the door swings open upwards.

Revverend
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Old 10th January 2017, 15:30   #40
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by Enobarbus View Post
To the best of my knowledge, the thrust reversers cannot be operated independently; once selected thrust reversers on both engines should operate simultaneously. If it is true that the thrust reverser of one engine operated independently, it means that it was a technical failure and not the fault of the pilot. However, that open letter(whoever wrote it) is stupid and uncalled for.
There can be many faults related to TR. Lauda Air Flight 004 crash saw thrust reverser engaged in mid-air. The system had put that engine on idle but did not made the pilot aware of the reason for the pull-back.
As a result, the pilot again increased the throttle of that engine leading to a crash. What pilot error?

Quote:
On 26 May 1991, the thrust reverser of the number one engine of Lauda Air Flight 004 deploys without being commanded during mid-flight, causing the aircraft to spiral out of control and disintegrate about 100 miles northwest of Bangkok. All of the 223 passengers and crew members die in the crash.

Last edited by purohitanuj : 10th January 2017 at 15:33.
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Old 10th January 2017, 15:51   #41
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

While not commenting on the merits / demerits of the 9W crew, I would like to relate an exemplary crew and passenger experience that I had a couple of years back.

I was on a BA day flight from BOM to LHR, when about 4 odd hours into the flight the pilot announced that "there are strong headwinds and we will need to make a refuelling stop, hence are landing in Istanbul". We groaned, cursing BA for not being able to calculate the fuel needed and that we would miss connecting flights, etc.

But as soon as we landed in Istanbul, the scene was completely different. We realised that as soon as we left the main runway, we were being escorted by fire engines on all sides. I was sitting on the left window side, and could see that fuel was gushing out of the wing, leaving a huge trail all over the taxiway.

Our flight was taken to a quarantined spot and the wing was doused with stuff from the fire engines. Only after the ok signal was given from the ground, we were escorted down into a bus and taken to the terminal.

All through, the crew was extremely calm and professional and the captain was talking to the passengers to allay any fears. The passengers too, though scared were extremely civil and behaved exactly as per the instructions of the crew.

Later on, in the overnight hotel that we had to stay in (BA arranged it), the Captain disclosed that he was extremely worried, because one of our fuel tanks had ruptured mid-air and we were basically a sitting tinderbox. But if he would have shared the real situation with others, there would have been total panic, so till the time we were completely safe, he had to keep a calm front!

Learning experience - SHIT happens, but how you deal with it makes all the difference!
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Old 10th January 2017, 16:19   #42
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by GJ01 View Post
I dont think thats the case. From what I understand "all" commercial aircrafts will have slides on the overwing exits.
You are not correct. I had mentioned it somewhere earlier too. Not all over-wing exits have slides and i don't think any variant of 737 has it.
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Old 10th January 2017, 16:33   #43
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post

Even if they could, as a pilot, let me make it very clear that I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who flies in my aircraft and then declares himself the judge, jury and executioner when something goes wrong. I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to..
I agree with most of the other points in your quote, but this one i dont.

I am a passenger. I know nothing about flying. I am not going to pretend that I do. I am in all probability lower than you both in IQ and Net Worth.

Everytime I fly I am placing trust on the aircraft manufacturer, airline, pilot and airlines maintainence staff of all doing their job. I know your job is hard, and the stresses are crazy, but then I know you made a conscious effort to choose this career and I am hoping you know how to cope with the same.

I am doing my part, by paying for the trip and abiding by the rules set by the airline.

If things go wrong, i am sorry i would like to find out which of the 4 is responsible and I would like to make sure the guilty party is penalised and the same is not repeated. I will obviously not make that decision, the authorities will.

When in you own statement you say its Your Aircraft, acknowledge its Your Responsibility, at least morally. If not, stop calling it Your Aircraft.

Also, whats with the aggression.. that you dont give a dawm what you think passengers are entitled to? If you really believe your own statement, why dont to tell your current airlines to make this phrase their marketing tagline?
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Old 10th January 2017, 16:41   #44
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Why would anyone call the pilot stupid. If this had happened in the air, there is no recovery. It definitely is a technical malfunction. One engine is pushing forward and the other is reversing. Its not like the pilot is driving a car where he can simply just hit the brakes to stop when here's a knock. He has to figure out whether hitting the brakes will be even worse than just cutting power. And in those seconds he has saved lives. So it would benefit many to owe thanks to people in whose hands we put our lives in. His appeal I can completely understand. Because most people will be quick to judge him, the crew and the airline, he will find himself without a job. And for these guys, they live to fly! Its not a job, its a way of life. And when he finds himself with no job and no offers from all airlines, it will be a downward spiral into oblivion. I would not wish that on my worst enemy. Even a few months without flying will handicap you because there are so many expensive checks and without an airline to sponsor you... it just happens to be a vicious cycle down.
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Old 10th January 2017, 16:49   #45
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
Also, whats with the aggression.. that you dont give a dawm what you think passengers are entitled to? If you really believe your own statement, why dont to tell your current airlines to make this phrase their marketing tagline?
If a layman tells me that I am incompetent in my job (even if he is my customer) I too might lose it. So I think a bit of aggro is excusable.

All of us know that aviation is extremely complex and the pilot himself might not know the cause of accident/incident. So no one might be in a position to give a good explanation until the inquiry goes into all possible aspects and comes up with a report. So let us hold judgement as requested.
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