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Old 10th January 2017, 17:09   #46
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

On the larger issue, i saw a lot of posts defending the pilots and i agree we cannot blame the pilot till we know the facts. But i still maintain that the letter by the pilot,if he wrote it, is in bad taste. He can't just say that the whole travelling public is nincompoops because they didn't study physics after grade 8 (where did he even get that, isn't physics compulsory till class 10th in most states) or don't know about asymmetric thrust. The letter smacks of arrogance and a point of view that only people who are experts in aviation should comment on it. If we extend that logic many pilots won't be speaking about anything other than aviation. Reflect for a moment and honestly in our daily lives do we comment only about subjects that we are experts in. Is it even possible or desirable?

I can understand the frustration that he might be experiencing and the feeling that he has been wronged and i agree that he should be considered innocent till proven guilty and the agencies designated for that should be the ones doing that and not the general public. But expecting people to not express their opinion or comment or give their views and calling them 'disgusting' and lamenting having to fly them for doing this is as condemnable as people judging guilty without knowing facts.

In the end if it turns out that he made a heroic save of what could have been a far worse situation, this letter will still be a blot, atleast in my mind.

According to me,

Is the pilot guilty-we don't know. Hopefully we will, with a fair investigation.
Should we pronounce him guilty for the accident-Absolutely no
Do people have a right to comment-Yes. Ideally with restraint and more logically but in real life it is difficult.
Was the pilot right in abusing the entire flying public and particularly the people who flew on that flight- Absolutely not.

Last edited by Mohan Mathew A : 10th January 2017 at 17:12.
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Old 10th January 2017, 17:52   #47
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by Enobarbus View Post
So let us hold judgement as requested.
Agreed, any reaction before the facts are out in unwarranted. Please see part of my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
I will obviously not make that decision, the authorities will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enobarbus View Post
So I think a bit of aggro is excusable.
Lets agree to disagree on this

Last edited by AbhiJ : 10th January 2017 at 17:55.
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Old 10th January 2017, 22:46   #48
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

A lot of our discussion has focused on the pilots. Actually there are three groups of Jet Airways' employees involved here. There are the two pilots and we should reserve judgment till the DGCA report comes out and we know what happened and who or what is at fault - often it is two or more factors at play and not just one error or malfunction. Second there are the cabin crew who based on 1lokesh's first hand eye witness accounts did not react in a manner consistent with the training they are supposed to have received - maybe they have not been trained to the right standard and given the practice drills needed. Nevertheless credit should go to them as all pax cleared out alive - no mean task in darkness. The bit about them crying as stated is fine. Clearing out emotional stress in such situations should not be seen as weakness. Maybe other pax after 1lokesh saw them take charge after the initial shock.

The third group are the ground staff who completely scored 0/10 by turning up a sadly long time later and remaining dis-organized thereafter - that reflects a lack of local leadership, training on what to do and attitude. The radio message from the Captain to the ATC was informed to the Navy crew. In the same way it is very very likely to have reached the Jet Airways ground crew too at roughly the same time even if a few minutes later. Clearly they would have difficulty finding their way out of a paper bag. The lot who really failed the pax are this third group. Also the worrisome bit are the photos of passengers walking next to the engine talking on a cell phone. We should be grateful the fuel did not leak out.

That letter has been written by some pilot - I say this not because of the jargon but the attitude. Could be the pilot in question or someone wanting to settle scores. The letter reflects the attitudes some pilots hold at times. We employ about 60 pilots and see this at the coal face oftentimes. No disrespect to any pilot on this forum. I am merely expressing my professional experience as a businessman.
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Old 10th January 2017, 23:07   #49
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Ultimately accolades by brother in arms or criticism by the ignorant is not going to matter but only the conclusion of the DGCA will prevail.
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Old 11th January 2017, 00:06   #50
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Default A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a ...

I think we have to understand that any incident such as this is an emotionally charged one. Surviving one, whether you are a passenger or a crew member, each one is going to have an opinion on what transpired in the event and how the other was either considerate or not in their actions or their deeds.

I've spent many a year in flight ops involving 744's/A330s/A340's including the A346 & I can safely say that until an enquiry is completed it isn't fair or wise to allocate blame to the crew or airline personnel on the root cause resulting in the incident. I will not comment on the aspect of how the airline handled matters subsequently, but I will say that there can be much more to pilot error that could have caused this scenario.

To share an example back in 2007 one of our 744s operated inbound with a known issue on the main body gear acting up resulting in a technical advisory on the turnaround specifying a restriction on the turn angle when taxiing and on taxi speeds with additional checks prescribed to ensure gear lock and no other cautions. Yet post an uneventful turnaround & on departure back when done lining up and just shortly before rolling post engine spool & stabilisation, the warning came up in the cockpit resulting in aborting takeoff and a return to bay, this despite the crew ensuring they did not exceed the turn angle limitation specified on the advisory by exercising as much discretion as possible to avoid pivoting the main gears too much. If for example this was an issue and the main gear was misaligned to the normal axis, it could have easily resulted in an incident and one that possibly the crew would have had little chance of controlling a heavy jet.

Long story short, going by the so called open letter allegedly written by the pilot, it should be appreciated that passengers and lay men may perhaps not understand such intricacies yet the predisposition to suspect pilot error at a relatively "benign" stage of lining up is not as easy as it looks just because it appears that it is a procedure that is relatively mundane or "basic". Flight ops is much more complex and involves safety in every aspect.

In fact the first word in any airline operation that's incorporated into every employee is SAFETY. Everything else is secondary.

I could write at length how 99% of people will never truly understand the various aspects that go into every single safe and successful flight but I'd just like to say that in the end, jumping to conclusions doesn't help.

Also I would like to state that Goa is a military airfield that's primarily controlled and operationally maintained by the Navy. Airside operations are accordingly much more strictly coordinated. It's not as if in an incident that access to the stricken aircraft is made available to all and that includes the airline employees and response teams themselves. There is a strict emergency response protocol in place at every airport, this being a military one had added considerations. With a view from airline operations, every line station has a copy of the Station Emergency Response Plan which employees are required to familiarise themselves with for such situations. A copy of which has to be duly acknowledged by all operational and customer service staff. A copy is usually also submitted to authorities centrally as part of the mandatory regulatory affairs and are subject to both internal and external audits. While the airline's plan does have well laid out steps and timelines, access to any stricken aircraft airside will be governed by the airport authorities keeping in mind the nature of the incident, existing operational conditions, other aircraft movements, runway status, weather(if a factor) etc. Primary response access and control will remain with Emergency Services and airline reps (usually operations staff) will only be permitted once it is deemed sufficiently safe by the ES teams to approach and arrange for guidance of passengers in a coordinated manner. Usually however as is understandable, natural panic will cause people evacuating to run away as far as possible themselves from the aircraft.

In the end we also need to understand that when humans are actually subjected to a critical life threatening situation, sometimes even the best training can come up short in terms of being prepared so some amount of shock on the cabin crew performance can be expected but I would not expect them to have failed as badly in executing their evacuation duties.

Lastly I honestly think the ubiquity of cellphones, our second nature of constantly being glued to them and the selfie addiction can really bring out the dumbest actions in us without realising there implications of what we are doing and where. The Emirates incident in Dubai and people filming within the cabin is a classic example.

Last edited by Vandit : 11th January 2017 at 00:34.
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Old 11th January 2017, 07:38   #51
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Before I start, let me just state that I am a pilot for a US major, and fly a Boeing 777 for a living. Which is quite similar to the 737-800, the aircraft involved in the accident.

Even if they could, as a pilot, let me make it very clear that I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who flies in my aircraft and then declares himself the judge, jury and executioner when something goes wrong. I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.
Well said,Sir.
No one really seems to understand the job of a pilot and the stress that comes with it that take a toll on him/her mentally and physically and people jump to conclusions and blame the pilot over this incident. This isn't fair. At the end of the day he still managed to save the lives of many!
To the passengers of the ill fated flight, my deepest sympathies and really happy that you guys made it out without any fatalities.
I'm in no way a pilot but have friends who are pilots and pioneers in aerospace.
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Old 11th January 2017, 11:11   #52
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Before I start, let me just state that I am a pilot for a US major, and fly a Boeing 777 for a living. Which is quite similar to the 737-800, the aircraft involved in the accident.

Before I start, let me explain what happened and what are the possible causes.
Dear SearchingHeaven
I respect your knowledge and experience in Aircraft Technology. I also admire the actions taken by pilot at the crisis period

With all due respects to pilots and Airways staff, If so many lives have been put at risk due to either mechanical failure or Pilot mistake, Do you think people who have posed their lives to danger by traveling in that plane cannot question the crew OR other staff? If they should not, then, who else is responsible?

PS: This is not finger pointing to pilots or any other staff, but a concern on the people who have put their life at risk by traveling in the flight expecting a successful end to end journey

Please don't get me wrong on this. All I am saying is, IMHO, the travelers have all rights to question the entire stakeholders responsible for flight travel JUST because their life have been put under risk.

Last edited by gkveda : 11th January 2017 at 11:12.
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Old 11th January 2017, 11:41   #53
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkveda View Post
With all due respects to pilots and Airways staff, If so many lives have been put at risk due to either mechanical failure or Pilot mistake,..
Your sentence here indicates that the Pilot, crew, and airlines intentionally did that ! What has happened -even it was a mistake, is not intentional.
( Ok, there may be an exception like what happened with the pilot of recent crash .. { btw, was that proved ? } . So until such an intention is proved, let us take it as either a mechanical failure or a mistake). Mistakes like what happen when you and I and all of us drive. Mistakes that affect the passengers in our cars and the people around us.


So how can anyone ask:
Quote:
Do you think people who have posed their lives to danger by traveling in that plane cannot question the crew OR other staff? If they should not, then, who else is responsible?
Let's not forget this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandit View Post
In fact the first word in any airline operation that's incorporated into every employee is SAFETY. Everything else is secondary.
Profitability may be the core reason, but without safety there is no profitability.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:06   #54
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Reminds me of another instance many years ago.
I was on an Air Deccan flight from Mumbai to Kolhapur. It was a turboprop as Kolhapur has a smaller runway.
Post landed, towards the end of the runway, we were still at a pretty high speed and it felt like our pilot took made a drifting U-turn (with our bodies feeling the G-force). Still reminds me of Fast & Furious Tokyo Drift!!! It was quite scary.
After deboarding, my colleague & I were thanking God for us being safe.

I think incidents like this have a lot to do with many factors - economics, statistics & customer preferences. Let me explain:

1. Economics:
1. You need the flight to be in the air for as much time as possible.
2. The most experienced pilots & crew will always be on the most revenue generating flights i.e. international long haul ones.
3. Some aviation experts (ex-pilots) tell me that globally, threshold for 'Go / No-Go' decision for aircrafts has come down over the years.
In early days, even for smaller problems they would not allow the flight to take off and now even for comparatively larger issues, flights are allowed to take off.
To give them benefit - technology also must've been much more advanced now, so some of the issues considered critical early must've become non-critical now as the onboard computer solves it instantly without human interaction.

Statistics
The more number of flights you have, the higher number of such incidents are bound to happen even if the probability per flying hour remains the same.

Customer Preferences
As far as cabin crew is concerned, having more experience kind of works against them being in cabin!! Just read the often made comments that Air India / Indian Airlines crew is full of 'aunties' & 'uncles'. But these 'aunties' & 'uncles' are best equipped to keep you safe in such emergencies due to their experience.

This is similar to some buyers preferring HU / bells & whistles in cars over airbags, and the manufacturers have to oblige.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:17   #55
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandit View Post

In fact the first word in any airline operation that's incorporated into every employee is SAFETY. Everything else is secondary.
I agree with this. Working for an airline (behind the scenes) it is mandatory for every employee to complete the aviation security course.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:32   #56
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by 1lokesh View Post
Once we reached the main terminal, it was only after repeated requests that Jet Airways arranged for water and refreshments, but not meals. Sandwich, samosa and coffee was all we got.
Just wondering what does a typical human being expect after surviving a near death experience? Is meals one of them?

A person survived a crash; if he/she still has an appetite for something more than Sandwiches, Samosa and coffee he/she should go ahead and splurge in the food court with the money in hand and celebrate.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:38   #57
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First of all, a big thank you to all who wished well and could relate to the incident. I have been traveling for the past week and intermittent connectivity held me back to respond to various posts in here, as much as I would like to respond. Finally, with laptop on my desk and with a stable connectivity bridge, I will try to respond to each and every post calling me out to be an ignorant, thankless and arrogant traveler apart from many other adjectives used. This one is going to a long one, so please excuse me if it gets too tiring.
First things first – In the opening post, in the first part, I have tried to describe my experience during that ill-fated short lived flight and the second part deals with my anger and disgust for the pilot who wrote that ‘open letter’. Now there are questions being raised whether it was written by the pilot of that flight or not. That ‘open letter’, for everybody’s information, was first published here: http://www.dailyo.in/variety/jet-air...y/1/14769.html For those who don't know, 'DailyO' is an "Online opinion, analysis and blog platform from the India Today Group" (Source)
To best of my knowledge, till date, I am not aware if Jet Airways or the pilot or the publication itself has made it clear, through any official statement, that this was NOT written by either of the pilots commanding the said flight. I don’t know what the truth is but the letter itself was very very demeaning to all the passengers who had just gone through the trauma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
I am quoting him : To be honest it's disgusting - flying this kind of passenger and taking responsibility for his life for however long it may be.
Well, it was most disgusting to read that particular line. This is where I started feeling angry versus my feelings of gratitude towards both the pilots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
Firstly you are safe, that counts the most.
Pathetic the way the situation was handled. Shows how prepared were the ground/airport staff were in case of an emergency. Jet airways less said the better.

PS: It would be interesting to see what caused this. Hope the information will be out post the investigation.
Exactly what I said in my post. Here it is again for those who might have missed it "I just hope a thorough investigation reveals what transpired in the cockpit. And if it is proved that you did your best, no one would be happier than me.

That day, I will find you and give you my thanks."


Quote:
Originally Posted by AkMar View Post
Glad to know that you are safe. They should have definitely managed the situation better after this incident.

However the pilot's letter which you referred to, is not written by the pilot of this ill fated flight. It is written by someone else. The pilot of this flight surely won't be allowed to write in the media at least till investigation is complete, or perhaps even longer. So I would request everyone to refrain from making comments on the pilot of this flight based on statements in the said article.
Since that 'open letter' was published on an online news/opinion portal run by an organization like India Today, I didn't have any reasons to believe at that time that it was fake or written by someone else. However, since you have mentioned this, I now have doubts on the authenticity of it. Any source for this information?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder_p8 View Post
Thank god you are safe. I cant imagine what the passengers went through. However, i didn't understand why the pilot is being targeted here? From the so called open letter? How do we know that letter is written by that pilot? And why we should blame any pilot for that matter on a accident that is still being investigated? Wasn't he there on the same plane? His life was not in danger? What we should actually avoid is passing judgement. And thats what we are doing here. He/she is already the first one being targeted for this accident. The right to prove fault with pilot or plane lies with authorities and not with us.
Thanks spyder. My anger emerges from the open letter that is claimed to be written by one of the pilot. Infact I have mentioned in my post very clearly that after I arrived at the terminal, I really wanted to thank him for saving everyone's life. I have also mentioned that no one will be happier than me when he is cleared in the investigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
First of all, glad to note that you are ok and really sorry for your experience. It is something no flying public should ever face. Having said that it is sad to note that everyone seems to be jumping on the pilot, the cabin crew and the airline without knowing anything about the accident. True, as a fare paying passengers everyone is entitled to their opinion but one must exercise some restraint when tarnishing someone's image in public. You did mention that you took your bag and ran. Do you not know that during an evacuation, that is the first thing that you must not do ?? Having said that, one can completely understand your reaction as our behavior pattern is not always logical or correct in the time of crisis.
As I mentioned in my post, the said (laptop backpack) bag was kept under my seat. Once the aircraft came to a halt I found my bag next to my feet and it was probably my impulsive reaction to pick it up. Yes, I should not have picked it up, but now when I think about it, may be it was for good - since it might have become an obstruction for other passengers behind me. But yes, I should not have picked it up. I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Yet, somehow that benefit of doubt is not extended to the crew. Just because they are trained does not mean that they are super humans. It just means that they are expected to react better than others. It is still is a crisis that they have probably never experienced just like you. It was early in the morning, and you were preparing for a shut eye while the crew had to be in their full alertness. Remember that just like you, the crew must also be experiencing fatigue and no amount of training can take away the human factors out of flying. Try and read up how our minds reacts when under stress or fatigue. You will be surprised. Its effects can be worse than alcohol.
While I totally understand your point, being early morning for a passenger and for the crew are two altogether different things. The crew is supposed to be alert and if they were fatigued or were tired from the previous flight (that is if they were flying back to back) – isn’t this airlines fault?
On other hand, I found other passengers (including the ones younger to the crew) much more calm and composed in the situation (without any training or experience).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
You say that the pilot did not stop after taking a U-turn as is the procedure. Can you please explain where you got that from ? There exists no such procedure. We tend to believe what we want to believe. In aviation, it is called confirmation bias. We believe in any theory that corroborates with what we believe.
This I got to know that from another passenger at the airport. Glad to be corrected if I am not right here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
I am really surprised to note how people are assuming that the letter that is doing the rounds is written by one of the pilots. It could very well be from any one pilot from any one airline. You are talking about your sleepless nights, the pilot of the said flight has probably not slept and will not be able to sleep for a long time to come. No one feels worse about an aircraft accident/Incident than the pilot itself. You can at least pour your heart out on social media. Unfortunately, the pilot cannot even talk about it with his own family as the matter is under investigation.
As I said, that open letter is not my figment of imagination. It appeared online on a trusted news website. Going by the open letter, if it is written by him that is, I'd reckon he is pretty busy in abusing passengers and media already let alone having sleepless nights. But again, I am in no place to say what the pilot is feeling like since the authenticity of the open letter is in question now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Every flying passenger is entitled for a safe and comfortable flight but do please cut some slack to the crew as they are also doing a job. They do it to the best of their abilities. Next time you make a small mistake at work, just remember that the same mistake by a pilot could have been an accident and the whole world would be passing a judgement while the news of your mistake did not even reach the next cubicle. By all means demand an explanation but please do at least wait for the investigation before you hang the pilot and the crew.

Ps: I am no way implying that you have blamed the pilots but as I did not want to multiquote many authors, I have quoted just you.

Thanks for sharing your story.

FLY SAFE
Thank RVDs. I might just not agree with you on comparing a mistake in cockpit and ‘small mistake’ in a cubicle. Anyway, I have mentioned this very clearly and amply that the investigation will only tell us what transpired in there then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsdbsd View Post
First things first. I am really sorry this happened to you. Things could've been worse. Everyone escaped unscathed this harrowing ordeal, and lived to tell the tale. I cant imagine your stresses and sincerely hope that you will move past this event quickly.

Next, lets be wary of fake news. I am 100% sure that the so called 'letter from pilot' is not the letter from pilot. Don't believe everything you read on the internet, unless its a source that you believe in. Lets wait for the DGCA inquiry to get completed. For all you know, he/she may be the hero here.
Yes sir. An online portal run by India Today is where this letter appeared. I had no reasons to suspect. And as I said in my post – when the inquiry is over and pilots are cleared no one would be happier than me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Before I start, let me just state that I am a pilot for a US major, and fly a Boeing 777 for a living. Which is quite similar to the 737-800, the aircraft involved in the accident.

Before I start, let me explain what happened and what are the possible causes.

<<snip>>


You felt there was a delay? Can you recognize the difference in engine noise at low N1(engine rpm) levels? Do you know the difference between 90% N1, 80% N1 & 60% N1? I assure you, you don't. You don't know when the throttles were retarded. You don't know when the thrust reversers were deployed, and if they worked properly or not.
No I am not a Pilot and I don’t know the difference. I take your point here. However, that is my assessment and I have put it as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
If the crew did not follow the SOP, made an error for eg. 1 or 2 listed above, then they must surely be brought to the task. But you're no one to decide that. The DGCA is going to conduct an investigation and come out with their report, which is what people and you should believe. If they declare that the crew made an error, then you're free to blame them as much as you want. But not before that.
Please refer to the following from my original post:
Quote:
I just hope a thorough investigation reveals what transpired in the cockpit. And if it is proved that you did your best, no one would be happier than me.

That day, I will find you and give you my thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
A runway excursion is a relatively common event, and happens/has happened with almost every airline once or twice. I know you won't belive me, so I sugeest you take a long hard look at the aviation-safety.net website. I don't know why this gives you nightmares.
Well. I am not a pilot and I certainly don't fly as regularly as you all do. But in no way, 'Runway Excursion' is a ‘relatively common event’ in my life or those in the plane that day or heck for that matter all the flyers I know personally. Probably everyone talking about that incident is just overhyping the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
No, you're wrong. Bringing the aircraft to a stop after executing a turn is not necessary or recommended. From my 777 flight crew training manual.Attachment 1593784
Glad to be corrected here. Guilty as charged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
I may be the captain of the ship, but I don't get to select the best of the cabin crew I want on my plane. Maybe you got a bad selection, maybe you didn't. But why blame the pilot for the fault of the airline?
By that logic, leaders will stop taking blame for inefficiencies of their teams. We will all blame the organization. But, that's your own opinion and good for you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Really, do you think that those pilots are allowed to speak to the media about what went wrong? Are you that naive? One wrong sentence from any of them, and the media would hang them out to dry, as you're doing now.
Naďve or not, If that open letter was on fakingnews.com or a satire website who would quote it or why would I turn around my feelings of gratitude towards the pilot to disgust? If it’s not the pilot who has written that, I am ready to retract whatever I have written referring to that open letter. Why has 9W or the pilots made even a single statement disowning that letter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Even if they could, as a pilot, let me make it very clear that I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who flies in my aircraft and then declares himself the judge, jury and executioner when something goes wrong. I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.
Good for you Sir! If you don't mind, please PM me the name of the airline you fly for. I would never feel safe flying with it. It will be another one after Jet in my list to never travel on. Anyways, 1 passenger in millions will never matter to you all. And this is my personal opinion. My whole outburst started from that open letter and the distasteful commentary in it. Your language here reeks of the same arrogance and superiority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Good reply. But I'll take a step further & blatantly accuse this guy of writing a emotionally charged piece, having no knowledge of the aircraft, its respective procedures, or any aviation knowhow at all. Typical Indian media.
Well, you are a superhuman sir. I am not. I will write what my opinion is, based on my experience and my feelings. You will write what yours is. And seriously, people have co-existed in this world without the hate that you bring in to protect someone of your own ilk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahen_narang View Post
Hello 1lokesh, you and all the passengers and crew members have been really lucky to have come out of the incident safely.

I completely respect your sentiments towards such a horrifying experience.

However, being a technical person I tend to agree with flyingheaven as well.

Basically, we all react to situations in a different way, so often in such a state of mind our subconscious behavior is lot different than the normal behavior that we may portray.

The crew (assuming younger than you) also must have experienced this for the first time, though trained, the situation would had made them tremble and hence even opening the first aid was difficult for them. You seem to be lot in control and hence could help, great.

But let me just put you in a situation where let say you were in the middle of the aircraft, not the third to evacuate but had about 30 people ahead of you then even your behavior would have changed. you might have got panicky, pushing people, praying and trembling before you get to evacuate; thus completely changing the scenario.

I recently attended a Life Savour workshop where i was taught to give CPR and use AED device. Believe me even to give CPR to a dummy raised my heartbeats, not sure how i will behave when i am put in a situation where i need to give it to one of my close ones. Trust me, it takes a lot of courage and patience to act in such situations.

Enjoy your Life and if possible believe that everyone tried to do their best in that situation and to now judge that best is futile. continue to count your blessings and try to come out of those nightmares.

Celebrate Life, we all have only one, including the pilot, crew, that pregnant lady, the bruised boy, those taking selfies and those helping others.

God Bless
Thanks Mahen. I am open to be corrected and will gladly accept where I am wrong. But without being bullied and clearly not from someone who thinks he/she is a superior human being. Yes, the crew was younger to me and I had full sympathy for them. As I said, there were younger passengers who kept calm and control and much better sense than those with a full-time professional training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by revverend View Post
Apart from this,the vilification of the crew by the OP and several other media outlets before any report from DGCA is no less than appalling.@searchingheaven has perfectly summarised the thoughts from a crew standpoint. I follow news from this field quite regularly and runway excursions on landing/takeoff are far too common,to the tune of 2-3 per week,across the world. It does not take away the safety hazard involved though.

Pax not following the exit procedures by carrying their belongings with them and blaming the crew for their inefficiencies thereafter is unfair to say the least. Retrieving baggage will hamper the evacuation process and will be a question of life and death in case of a fire. Case in point,EK521 in Dubai

Revverend
Oh, so it was really nice of the pilot to write that piece even before the DGCA investigations were over? Show me one official statement from anyone (9W/pilot) stating that the letter was not written by the pilots of this flight and I will gladly take back all what I have written in the last part of my post about the pilot.
But yes, the passengers who were on that plane are not even allowed to express their opinion! Your “following news from this field” doesn’t make runway excursions “far too common” for those who do not “follow news from this field”. Also I don’t think it is necessary to follow news from this field before one can fly. So that puts about 99% of flyers across the globe in minority and not share their experience and opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enobarbus View Post
If a layman tells me that I am incompetent in my job (even if he is my customer) I too might lose it. So I think a bit of aggro is excusable.

All of us know that aviation is extremely complex and the pilot himself might not know the cause of accident/incident. So no one might be in a position to give a good explanation until the inquiry goes into all possible aspects and comes up with a report. So let us hold judgement as requested.
A layman has full rights to express his opinion. I am a layman who pays airline in full which in turn pays every employee of theirs the salary. Attitude like “I give a damn about what you think” is something that concerns me. You chose to fly a plane full of 150 passengers and unless you give a damn – the sense of security of all the flyers who trust these guys in cockpit, is brought down to zilch. And no, I didn’t beg 9W and its pilots to give me a free ride back home on a highway. They approached me with their fare offers and I paid the sum they asked for the deal. My safety is their responsibility and when I say their – it includes the pilot! Unless you start putting up disclaimers before people buy tickets – safety/accountability of the passenger is subject to the pilot giving a damn about what you think or expect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
A lot of our discussion has focused on the pilots. Actually there are three groups of Jet Airways' employees involved here. There are the two pilots and we should reserve judgment till the DGCA report comes out and we know what happened and who or what is at fault - often it is two or more factors at play and not just one error or malfunction. Second there are the cabin crew who based on 1lokesh's first hand eye witness accounts did not react in a manner consistent with the training they are supposed to have received - maybe they have not been trained to the right standard and given the practice drills needed. Nevertheless credit should go to them as all pax cleared out alive - no mean task in darkness. The bit about them crying as stated is fine. Clearing out emotional stress in such situations should not be seen as weakness. Maybe other pax after 1lokesh saw them take charge after the initial shock.

The third group are the ground staff who completely scored 0/10 by turning up a sadly long time later and remaining dis-organized thereafter - that reflects a lack of local leadership, training on what to do and attitude. The radio message from the Captain to the ATC was informed to the Navy crew. In the same way it is very very likely to have reached the Jet Airways ground crew too at roughly the same time even if a few minutes later. Clearly they would have difficulty finding their way out of a paper bag. The lot who really failed the pax are this third group. Also the worrisome bit are the photos of passengers walking next to the engine talking on a cell phone. We should be grateful the fuel did not leak out.

That letter has been written by some pilot - I say this not because of the jargon but the attitude. Could be the pilot in question or someone wanting to settle scores. The letter reflects the attitudes some pilots hold at times. We employ about 60 pilots and see this at the coal face oftentimes. No disrespect to any pilot on this forum. I am merely expressing my professional experience as a businessman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by #enzowho View Post
Well said,Sir.
No one really seems to understand the job of a pilot and the stress that comes with it that take a toll on him/her mentally and physically and people jump to conclusions and blame the pilot over this incident. This isn't fair. At the end of the day he still managed to save the lives of many!
To the passengers of the ill fated flight, my deepest sympathies and really happy that you guys made it out without any fatalities.
I'm in no way a pilot but have friends who are pilots and pioneers in aerospace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkveda View Post
Dear SearchingHeaven
I respect your knowledge and experience in Aircraft Technology. I also admire the actions taken by pilot at the crisis period

With all due respects to pilots and Airways staff, If so many lives have been put at risk due to either mechanical failure or Pilot mistake, Do you think people who have posed their lives to danger by traveling in that plane cannot question the crew OR other staff? If they should not, then, who else is responsible?

PS: This is not finger pointing to pilots or any other staff, but a concern on the people who have put their life at risk by traveling in the flight expecting a successful end to end journey

Please don't get me wrong on this. All I am saying is, IMHO, the travelers have all rights to question the entire stakeholders responsible for flight travel JUST because their life have been put under risk.
As I said earlier, I will retract all my comments made on pilot when it is proved or even officially claimed by the airline/pilots that the 'open letter' is fake. However, it doesn’t end here. I was shocked to see the same kind of language used by their brother in arms in this very forum. I have clarified it earlier and will do it again - My sentiments against the pilot stemmed from the open letter he wrote even before the investigation begun. Once we find out from the investigation that the pilot was the savior, I will stand by my words and will personally thank him.
But as a passenger, who has paid full fare to an airline – I WILL question and keep asking for accountability. I will not be cowed down by the bullies who think they are superior human beings and a notch above the rest.
I may again be delayed in responding to posts which will come after this post of mine, but please bear with me till then.
Again, thanks to each one of you who wished well.

Thank You!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Just wondering what does a typical human being expect after surviving a near death experience? Is meals one of them?

A person survived a crash; if he/she still has an appetite for something more than Sandwiches, Samosa and coffee he/she should go ahead and splurge in the food court with the money in hand and celebrate.
No sir, meals were requested by passengers post 1pm, full 7 hours after waiting in the arrivals. A lot of people had left their wallets and bags in the plane back there. Yours truly had bought his own snacks and food with the money in his wallet that was luckily with him while exiting the plane. I was talking about foreigners, families and many elderly passengers who were unable to eat the same food and not buy due to no cash.

Just for your information, Jet airways offered a full refund of the flight and one way ticket in any sector within India as a gesture of their "goodwill". I will not be using that ticket since I will never fly with them again. Would you want that ticket sir? I will be happy to PM you that voucher if you'd.

Last edited by Aditya : 11th January 2017 at 17:21. Reason: Merging back to back posts
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Old 11th January 2017, 13:06   #58
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

In a service industry, one can't affort to "don't give a damn". Those who are feeling offended, and using aggressive language to "defend" pilots, please tone down. Or next time, be prepared to listen "I dont give a damn about a parent who know nothing about teaching" from your children's school; or "I dont give a damn about the customer who know nothing about cooking" from a chef when you find out some hair or insect in your food at any restaurant. Or likewise.

Most of us know nothing about how government is run, but we do comment on workings of our CM,PM and govt deptts, isn't it? And probably they don't give a damn too, hence the pathetic state of polity in India?

Point is, service industry is tough, only because of this - customers expect a certain level of responsibility (and humility) over and above the usual call of duty.
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Old 11th January 2017, 14:11   #59
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1lokesh View Post

Oh, so it was really nice of the pilot to write that piece even before the DGCA investigations were over? Show me one official statement from anyone (9W/pilot) stating that the letter was not written by the pilots of this flight and I will gladly take back all what I have written in the last part of my post about the pilot.
But yes, the passengers who were on that plane are not even allowed to express their opinion! Your “following news from this field” doesn’t make runway excursions “far too common” for those who do not “follow news from this field”. Also I don’t think it is necessary to follow news from this field before one can fly. So that puts about 99% of flyers across the globe in minority and not share their experience and opinion.
Thanks for responding 1lokesh. Let me clear a few points :

1. I can only imagine the emotional anguish you have been through and the trauma that you have subjected to with this experience. Hope you spring back soon enough.I am not taking away that from you.I feel sorry you had to go through the entire ordeal

2. The authenticity of the "letter" can be questioned both ways. 9W/Pilot have not come forward denying the letter but in the same breath there is no way to verify that it is indeed the same pilot who has penned down the thoughts. Even though it has been published on a reputed media outlet,it is mere speculation at end of the day. The tone of the author is rather condescending.

3. The point of me mentioning the frequency of runway excursions is to support the fact that this is not a one off incident and the cause can be pilot error/mechanical failure/other. Like in every incident/accident DGCA will conduct a thorough investigation and release the "facts" in this case too. Until then coming to a conclusion based on mere speculation will not help your case or anyone else.

4. It is absolutely not necessary to follow the aviation field if you want to fly. I follow it out of interest and have presented an observation to support my statement in Point 3. You are free to express your opinion in any public forum you wish to. You have a first hand experience of the incident. That said, judging 9W/Pilot based on "Delay in cutting out the throttle" and "didn’t come to a complete halt after taking the U-turn on the runway" does not support your argument.

5. Please remember this is not a personal attack on you but clarifying the facts. Again I am neither discounting the harrowing experience you have gone through nor brushing away the incident as "Just another runway excursion" . Like one of the members mentioned,safety is paramount when it comes to flying metal tubes at the sound of speed.I trust there will be a thorough investigation and corrective action (Pilot/Airline/Maintenance/Airport) will be taken

Cheers
Revverend
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Old 11th January 2017, 14:56   #60
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Quote:
Originally Posted by revverend View Post
Thanks for responding 1lokesh. Let me clear a few points :

1. I can only imagine the emotional anguish you have been through and the trauma that you have subjected to with this experience. Hope you spring back soon enough.I am not taking away that from you.I feel sorry you had to go through the entire ordeal

2. The authenticity of the "letter" can be questioned both ways. 9W/Pilot have not come forward denying the letter but in the same breath there is no way to verify that it is indeed the same pilot who has penned down the thoughts. Even though it has been published on a reputed media outlet,it is mere speculation at end of the day. The tone of the author is rather condescending.

3. The point of me mentioning the frequency of runway excursions is to support the fact that this is not a one off incident and the cause can be pilot error/mechanical failure/other. Like in every incident/accident DGCA will conduct a thorough investigation and release the "facts" in this case too. Until then coming to a conclusion based on mere speculation will not help your case or anyone else.

4. It is absolutely not necessary to follow the aviation field if you want to fly. I follow it out of interest and have presented an observation to support my statement in Point 3. You are free to express your opinion in any public forum you wish to. You have a first hand experience of the incident. That said, judging 9W/Pilot based on "Delay in cutting out the throttle" and "didn’t come to a complete halt after taking the U-turn on the runway" does not support your argument.

5. Please remember this is not a personal attack on you but clarifying the facts. Again I am neither discounting the harrowing experience you have gone through nor brushing away the incident as "Just another runway excursion" . Like one of the members mentioned,safety is paramount when it comes to flying metal tubes at the sound of speed.I trust there will be a thorough investigation and corrective action (Pilot/Airline/Maintenance/Airport) will be taken

Cheers
Revverend
Thank you Revverend. On your points:

1. Thanks, I am back to a normal life and have started taking even long flights now

2. Just clarifying that the post I wrote originally, also first appeared on the same online news portal, upon a request by the editor working for this website. This 'first person account' written by me was published on 04-Jan-2017, full 8 days after the incident and 7 days after that 'open letter'. A fake "open letter" that went viral on social media demanded a quick reaction from 9W - debunking it, if they knew it was fake. But they didn't do it for the reasons known best to them. By the way; 9W is quite active on social media. There is no way that they would have missed out on this 'open letter'.

3. I stand by my point - 'runway excursions' are not 'frequent' for a common flyer, however I do respect your interest in following aviation but just that, for a common flyer - it seems to be life threatening. On your other bit on 'thorough investigation' part, I fully agree and believe in it. I have said that earlier and will say it again - My anger stemmed from this condescending 'open letter' from the pilot engrossed with a feeling of superior 'aryan' race and 'no-one-can-question-me' attitude. I would be glad to see the pilot get a clean chit. In that case he will be the hero who who saved 163 lives!

4. I have accepted the facts in my post when confronted by pros in aviation. For my statements of "not cutting the throttle in time" and "didn't come to a complete halt before take off" I have accepted to be guilty as charged. What I thought might not be true and I am glad to be corrected.

5. Thank you!

Cheers!
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