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Old 5th April 2017, 08:25   #121
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Thatís pretty bad! What is probably worse, is that they (likely) have this same attitude to all of their work. So a MEL not adhered to is the least of your worries with this lot!

Jeroen
Exactly. Now I have no way of physically verifying the quality of their work. So I would simply use the easiest quantitative proxy - the number of hours on MEL flown per MEL notice. Of course, an airline can fly on an MEL for X (10?12?) number of hours, but I would appreciate the airline that prioritizes safety and takes the aircraft out of service first.

If only DGCA made this publicly available, my business travels would become far simpler.
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Old 5th April 2017, 10:33   #122
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Exactly. Now I have no way of physically verifying the quality of their work. So I would simply use the easiest quantitative proxy - the number of hours on MEL flown per MEL notice. Of course, an airline can fly on an MEL for X (10?12?) number of hours, but I would appreciate the airline that prioritizes safety and takes the aircraft out of service first.

If only DGCA made this publicly available, my business travels would become far simpler.
Most MEL items donít have a number of hours, You can for instance fly indefinitely without an APU, or flaps not working.

Iím also a little surprised the cockpit crew did not pick this up. You are supposed to explicitly review the MEL notices.

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Old 5th April 2017, 13:28   #123
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Exactly. Now I have no way of physically verifying the quality of their work. So I would simply use the easiest quantitative proxy - the number of hours on MEL flown per MEL notice. Of course, an airline can fly on an MEL for X (10?12?) number of hours, but I would appreciate the airline that prioritizes safety and takes the aircraft out of service first.

If only DGCA made this publicly available, my business travels would become far simpler.
This discussion is losing its plot and becoming quite silly really. What exactly is it that you want DGCA to Publish ? The manufacturer after due consideration to safety, allows an aircraft under MEL and you want the operator to do the repair immediately while losing revenue as YOU believe that, it otherwise compromises on safety ? The air-crafts have night stops and the MEL items are usually attended to during those times unless there is unavailability of parts. The MEL preamble states that though there are allowable time intervals given for repair, the repair should ideally be done at the earliest opportunity. In most cases the repairs are done well within stipulated times. I have seen it from personal experience. If you guys have any experience contrary to what I have mentioned, then do please share. Now, coming back to the incident, it is most definitely an oversight by the AME to dispatch the aircraft.No AME would put his license on line to avoid repair. In this case, the delay and revenue loss is justified and they would have no problem in reasoning for the delay. Though, I completely agree that we as a nation do suffer from " Chalta Hai" syndrome but it is quite disappointing to note that any occurrence in Indian aviation is blamed on the "Chalta Hai" attitude without even waiting for the investigation to be over. Oh wait, the investigation will never be over because of the "Chalta Hai" attitude.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Most MEL items donít have a number of hours, You can for instance fly indefinitely without an APU, or flaps not working.

Iím also a little surprised the cockpit crew did not pick this up. You are supposed to explicitly review the MEL notices.

Jeroen
I do strongly suggest you brush up on your understanding of MEL. Every MEL repair is time bound. It is divided into four categories:
Catagory A: Repair needs to be conducted within the period mentioned in dispatch conditions.
Catagory B: The repairs need to be conducted within 3 calendar days( excluding the day that the defect was observed) .
Catagory C : The repairs need to be conducted within 10 Calendar days.
Catagory D: The repairs need to be conducted within 120 Calendar days.
So no, you cannot be operating a commercial aircraft with un-serviceable APU or flaps for the rest of its life cycle.

Last edited by RVD : 5th April 2017 at 13:30.
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Old 5th April 2017, 15:39   #124
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Default A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a ...

My mistake, getting my small and big planes muddled up. Still 120 days is a long time. So if you take these categories per MEL item what would the distribution, roughly, be? What percentage would be A, B etc?

I never quite understood, if there is a time limit, it would be stipulated in (flight) hours and or maybe cycles, not days?

More to the point and I think we agree on that, tracking and publishing items under MEL does nothing to enhance safety.

It's down to attitude and culture.

I am surprised the pilots did not pick this up. Should be in the aircraft log shouldn't it? We will have to await the final report for that I guess

Last edited by Jeroen : 5th April 2017 at 15:44.
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Old 5th April 2017, 16:26   #125
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a ...

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
My mistake, getting my small and big planes muddled up. Still 120 days is a long time. So if you take these categories per MEL item what would the distribution, roughly, be? What percentage would be A, B etc?

I never quite understood, if there is a time limit, it would be stipulated in (flight) hours and or maybe cycles, not days?

More to the point and I think we agree on that, tracking and publishing items under MEL does nothing to enhance safety.

It's down to attitude and culture.

I am surprised the pilots did not pick this up. Should be in the aircraft log shouldn't it? We will have to await the final report for that I guess
The maintenance schedule is published in terms of cycles or flight hours but MEL is always in terms of days. I am yet to see a snag that was 119 Days old. Like I mentioned, it is usually rectified at the first available opportunity, that does not involve a loss of revenue for the airline. In fact, I have not seen a defect that has been carried forward more than a couple of days. Our company is quite proactive, Cant say for all the airliners.

You are right in that it should have been picked up by the flight crew. Before the captain signs the Tech Log, S/he goes through all the notes to crew and deferred maintenance log and in case of an MEL item, both crew are required to read it completely before accepting the aircraft. In fact, most crew will also go through previous pages of the log book to see any observations made by the previous crew that may not lead to invoking an MEL but may be something to keep in mind. I got an aircraft recently in which the previous crew reported fluctuations in the cabin altitude during flight and even though it is acceptable as long as the pressurization is within limits, its a good practice for the new crew to keep the observations in mind.
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Old 7th April 2017, 23:41   #126
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Though, I completely agree that we as a nation do suffer from " Chalta Hai" syndrome but it is quite disappointing to note that any occurrence in Indian aviation is blamed on the "Chalta Hai" attitude without even waiting for the investigation to be over. Oh wait, the investigation will never be over because of the "Chalta Hai" attitude.
RVD... As someone who has been following aviation safety from a layman's perspective, below are some incidents I have come across in the last few years. Please note that this information is not obtained from the tabloid or main stream media but from the accident/incident reports on the website of the Director General of Civil Aviation .

1 Air India A320 accident at Jaipur (diverted from Delhi due to bad weather). The aircraft was a write off. Among many other factors highlighted in the report was that the crew accepted a computerised flight plan for the wrong aircraft (tail number).

2 Jet Airways Boeing 738 at Trivandrum (Diverted from Kochi due to bad weather). The crew landed at Trivandrum on the overall SEVENTH attempt after three attempts at Kochi and then after three further attempts at Trivandrum- which that day had an unserviceable ILS under NOTAM. The crew finally made it literally blind on the seventh attempt with EGPWS "Terrain Terrain" and "Terrain Terrain Pull Up" warnings sounding in the cockpit. And despite all this the crew simply went ahead refuelled and returned back to Kochi after the weather cleared.

3 Air India A320 landed at Delhi after a Khajuraho Varanasi Delhi flight with leaking hydraulic fluid .The onboard AME (for transit inspection) was cited by DGCA for not following company procedures when he tried to rectify the defect which first occurred at Khajuraho.

4 Indigo- Katmandu- After ground personnel observed smoke on landing, the pilot ordered emergency evacuation from the SAME SIDE where the smoke was observed!

5 Spice Jet - Tuticorin- Tail Strike - Q 400 - After co-pilot carried out unauthorised supervised landing on a restricted airport.


There are quite a few more. And you still want to insist that everything is hunky dory in Indian aviation???

Last edited by TKMCE : 7th April 2017 at 23:45.
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Old 8th April 2017, 10:25   #127
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

Brother BHPians, allow me to toss my two paisa worth based on my experience in this industry in India and abroad.

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Here's an example of what happens when MELs meet Indian "chalta hai" attitude of pushing safety to the limit.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4a4bb10d&opt=0
I am not here to make excuses for this airline or the engineer or the pilots. Certainly not a flattering situation for these employees or their management or the culture of this particular airline. When the German Wings pilot of Flight 9525 flew his A320 into the ground did we say all German Aviation is rotten? - and German regulator brought in the rule of 2 crew in the cockpit a tall times something which we have had for years (watch what happens in say Indigo when a flight crew wants to come out to use the toilet). May be we could exercise restraint in venting universal statements.

On the other hand can we improve on the culture and attitude of India towards safety - by golly yes we can. Is Indian aviation as safe and thorough as Germany, France, UK - nope. Are we as bad as Russia, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, Indonesia, Philippines, Bulgaria - nope. Everything must be seen in the context of scale and we may want to exercise restraint in condemning an entire industry or an entire nation with a certain attitude. The Indian aviation is now the 3rd largest globally in terms if domestic pax flown and 3 routes are amongst the global top 20 of most frequent flights. In 2018 it is expected that India will be the 3rd largest overall - domestic + international pax. Cargo we are far behind.

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Exactly. Now I have no way of physically verifying the quality of their work. So I would simply use the easiest quantitative proxy - the number of hours on MEL flown per MEL notice. Of course, an airline can fly on an MEL for X (10?12?) number of hours, but I would appreciate the airline that prioritizes safety and takes the aircraft out of service first. If only DGCA made this publicly available, my business travels would become far simpler.
MEL is simple stuff. Glad most pax do not know what other complexities lie in aircraft operations and maintenance. If anyone needs to be 101% sure then we need to study the maintenance log of every aircraft we fly in and the safety record of the 2 pilots on each flight and the weather and....

With no disrespect flying Indian skies is safer than crossing the road. While a few lax individuals lurk even in Indian aviation, by and large most people work hard in difficult conditions to keep us flying safe. Running a business/company in India at 5.5 or 6 sigma or very close to it is challenging when the rest of the environment is at 3 sigma. I empathize with you as a layman being worried. But these are the exceptions - sadly in aviation exceptions are very risky. Don't condemn the industry. Attitudes vary with airline; laxity is not universal to the industry. Infact it is one of the very few industry's that across most of the world operates at six sigma. Unfortunately you don't want to be in the balance .000000001%. Simply stop using that airline.

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
This discussion is losing its plot and becoming quite silly really. What exactly is it that you want DGCA to Publish ? The manufacturer after due consideration to safety, allows an aircraft under MEL and you want the operator to do the repair immediately while losing revenue as YOU believe that, it otherwise compromises on safety ? The air-crafts have night stops and the MEL items are usually attended to during those times unless there is unavailability of parts. The MEL preamble states that though there are allowable time intervals given for repair, the repair should ideally be done at the earliest opportunity. In most cases the repairs are done well within stipulated times. I have seen it from personal experience.

I do strongly suggest you brush up on your understanding of MEL. Every MEL repair is time bound. It is divided into four categories:
Catagory A: Repair needs to be conducted within the period mentioned in dispatch conditions.
Catagory B: The repairs need to be conducted within 3 calendar days( excluding the day that the defect was observed) .
Catagory C : The repairs need to be conducted within 10 Calendar days.
Catagory D: The repairs need to be conducted within 120 Calendar days.
So no, you cannot be operating a commercial aircraft with un-serviceable APU or flaps for the rest of its life cycle.
Thank you RVD. Absolutely right. To add to what RVD writes - it is simpler to close an MEL item than to keep it open for 119 days and track it. The 120 days is the OEM's outer limit. Clearing out items on night halts or when the aircraft is being given a monthly check-out is simpler and is what gets done.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Still 120 days is a long time. So if you take these categories per MEL item what would the distribution, roughly, be?
It's down to attitude and culture.
Your coffee boilers can wait 120 days! Galley cart number 6 can remain non-operational for 120 days. Just giving examples. We can say it was down to the attitude of those 4 employees or worse the airline & its management.

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
The maintenance schedule is published in terms of cycles or flight hours but MEL is always in terms of days. I am yet to see a snag that was 119 Days old. Like I mentioned, it is usually rectified at the first available opportunity, that does not involve a loss of revenue for the airline. In fact, I have not seen a defect that has been carried forward more than a couple of days. Our company is quite proactive, Cant say for all the airliners.

You are right in that it should have been picked up by the flight crew. Before the captain signs the Tech Log, S/he goes through all the notes to crew and deferred maintenance log and in case of an MEL item, both crew are required to read it completely before accepting the aircraft. In fact, most crew will also go through previous pages of the log book to see any observations made by the previous crew that may not lead to invoking an MEL but may be something to keep in mind.
RVD says it exactly like it is.

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Originally Posted by TKMCE View Post
RVD... As someone who has been following aviation safety from a layman's perspective....

1 Air India A320 accident at Jaipur (diverted from Delhi due to bad weather). The aircraft was a write off......

3 Air India A320 landed at Delhi after a Khajuraho....

4 Indigo- Katmandu- ....

5 Spice Jet - Tuticorin- Tail Strike ...

There are quite a few more. And you still want to insist that everything is hunky dory in Indian aviation???
TKMCE - with no disrespect to you. We should study DGCA filings with the context of the filings of other regulators whose routes you fly with. That will help establish the context, the scale and the statistics. I am not here making excuses for the 4 examples above. Can Indian skies get safer - of course they can. Can DGCA get more enlightened - by jove you bet. Is all of Indian aviation (pax, cargo, Armed forces and General aviation) all crap - probably not. As passengers are we entitled to be concerned about our safety - yes of course we are. As a layman should we tie ourselves in knots with one quarter knowledge - maybe not. Just my perspective. Fly safe; well over a 131 million other passengers do so too each year in this country.
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Old 8th April 2017, 12:20   #128
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Is Indian aviation as safe and thorough as Germany, France, UK - nope.

Are we as bad as Russia, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, Indonesia, Philippines, Bulgaria - nope.

Everything must be seen in the context of scale
Those a very broad statements. Without agreeing how that is measured or compared it doesnít have any value at all. So letís look at some details.

When discussing and wanting to compare aviation safety per nation I would suggest we use the ICAO ratings.

See http://www.icao.int/safety/Pages/USOAP-Results.aspx

This is a well established, very clearly defined method that all nations in the world adhere too. (Well, those that are part of the United Nations anyway, i.e. just about all)

So letís first compare India to the Global average:

A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway-screen-shot-20170408-7.50.33-am.png

Now letís compare India to Germany, France and the UK:

A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway-screen-shot-20170408-8.00.40-am.png

Now letís compare Russia, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, Indonesia, Philippines and Bulgaria

A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway-screen-shot-20170408-7.53.09-am.png

Just a comment to these ratings. They are known as the "Effective Implementationí. This is to what extent the respective aviation authorities have implemented the various ICAOís rules. It getís audited from time to time. The data shown is based on the last audit. Some of the data could be a few years old. But then again, part of the implementation of the ICAO system is that the level of effective implementation is at least kept, but really ought to be improved.

There are just a few known exceptions, countries that have scored notably worse during the last audit, compared to the previous audit. Unfortunately, India finds themselves in this very exclusive, but very sinister group of countries who had their rating downgraded substantially to what is commonly known as ďsub sahara standardĒ. Although not an official definition, that is as bad as it gets.

The good news though is that India did improve since and got itís regular ICAO status back. As far as I can tell from this data, for India itís based on 2015 results, so after the improvements took place.

As you will see in these graphs ICAO uses eight distinct different areas. Adding them all up and comparing average doesnít make any sense. So the only way to make a claim such as country A is safer than country B must be that the country B scores better on each of the 8 identified areas.

So when we compare India to the global average we can see India does better than the global average in four areas and worse in also four areas.

When comparing to Germany, France and the UK it clearly shows that there is a substantial margin between India and these three countries in most areas.

Now when comparing India to Russia, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, Indonesia, Philippines and Bulgaria in order to verify the claim India is ďsaferĒ than those countries the data actually shows a very different picture. In fact, remarkably some might think, Mexico and Brazil both score better consistently in all eight areas then India! To add, the mission data for Mexico is 2012 and Brazil 2015.

Colombia scores 7 out of 8 areas better than India.

Bulgaria scores 6 out of 8 areas better than India

Both Philippines and Russia score 4 out of 8 better than India

Indonesia score 2 out of 8 better than India

So, is India ďsaferĒ than Russia, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, Indonesia, Philippines and Bulgaria? The data clearly shows it is not. At least two countries are doing substantially better and another two could be considered in doing better as well.

Of course this ICAO system is about the implementation and adherence of ICAO rules and regulations in the respective nation. To leap from a given ICAO effective implementation score to country A, B or C is ďsafeĒ is not that straight forward.

But this is the only system I can think of that at least has an uniform way of measuring the implementation of the formal aviation oversight mechanism in a particular country. Also, this about the national aviation authority, not the various individual (national) carriers as such. We often see the two being mixed.

I donít agree that we should see things in the context of scale at all. Scale, growth, expansion is no excuse, safety is absolute! You die or you donít! Certainly the ICAO ratings do not take scale into consideration as such. The rules are the same for each and every country, irrespective of the size of itís aviation industry. And thatís how it should be.

Jeroen
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Old 8th April 2017, 12:35   #129
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post

TKMCE - with no disrespect to you. We should study DGCA filings with the context of the filings of other regulators whose routes you fly with. That will help establish the context, the scale and the statistics. I am not here making excuses for the 4 examples above. Can Indian skies get safer - of course they can. Can DGCA get more enlightened - by jove you bet. Is all of Indian aviation (pax, cargo, Armed forces and General aviation) all crap - probably not. As passengers are we entitled to be concerned about our safety - yes of course we are. As a layman should we tie ourselves in knots with one quarter knowledge - maybe not. Just my perspective. Fly safe; well over a 131 million other passengers do so too each year in this country.
With all due respect, this is not one quarter knowledge. These are all taken from the actual accident/incident reports of the respective accident/incidents published in the official DGCA website. Just because I do not actually fly an aircraft or maintain one does not mean these facts are from "one quarter knowlege". If you or anyone else have the other "three quarters knowledge" please feel to share it for the benefit of everyone here so that we can have an open discussion. Agreed 131 million other passengers flew safe in India but was this of any comfort to the original poster of this thread who to quote his own words " narrate my rendezvous with what I thought would be my last moments" ? . Neither did it help most of the passengers of Air India Express Flight on 22 May 2010 which crashed at Mangalore. Please go through the investigation report (available in the DGCA website) of that accident and evaluate how many of the recommendations made in the report has actually been implemented?. The Goa incident as narrated by the original poster shows that clearly some of them have not !

I am not saying that everything is unsafe. I gave a cross section of examples (to avoid a debate on whether private or goverment airlines are more safe) but the fact remains that some of these incidents are scary. And the frequency with these incidents are happening is a cause of concern. As also the fact that in many cases the recommendations of the respective inquiry boards are not actioned in time.

Last edited by TKMCE : 8th April 2017 at 12:43.
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Old 8th April 2017, 13:16   #130
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by TKMCE View Post
With all due respect, this is not one quarter knowledge. These are all taken from the actual accident/incident reports of the respective accident/incidents published in the official DGCA website. Just because I do not actually fly an aircraft or maintain one does not mean these facts are from "one quarter knowlege". If you or anyone else have the other "three quarters knowledge" please feel to share it for the benefit of everyone here so that we can have an open discussion. Agreed 131 million other passengers flew safe in India but was this of any comfort to the original poster of this thread who to quote his own words " narrate my rendezvous with what I thought would be my last moments" ? . Neither did it help most of the passengers of Air India Express Flight on 22 May 2010 which crashed at Mangalore. Please go through the investigation report (available in the DGCA website) of that accident and evaluate how many of the recommendations made in the report has actually been implemented?. The Goa incident as narrated by the original poster shows that clearly some of them have not !

I am not saying that everything is unsafe. I gave a cross section of examples (to avoid a debate on whether private or goverment airlines are more safe) but the fact remains that some of these incidents are scary. And the frequency with these incidents are happening is a cause of concern. As also the fact that in many cases the recommendations of the respective inquiry boards are not actioned in time.
Which part of air india crash report had recomendations, if it did, which part of those recomendations which allegedly have not been implemented, has contributed to the Goa incident? Can you please elaborate?
Regarding the ICAO graph, what I gathered is, our licencing, operations and airworthiness is strong mostly due professional airlines, pilot and crew training and good mantainance with trained engineers. All this is because of professionally run airlines by and large. Areas in which we lag, accident investigation, airports, facilities are not surprisingly in government clutches, with moronic babus running the show. The results are not surprising. Imo privatise everything disband dgca to create a independent civil aviation regulator to revolutionalize air transport. Will the govt allow this is the real question looking at the current trend in behavior of our sitting mp's while enjoying free flying perks

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Old 8th April 2017, 14:42   #131
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Which part of air india crash report had recomendations, if it did, which part of those recomendations which allegedly have not been implemented, has contributed to the Goa incident? Can you please elaborate?
That report on the Mangalore crash had an entire chaper of recommendations! See chapter 4 of the report please.

Look at Recommendation 4.2.10, "Suitability of RFF Vehicles for the type of terrain".

Now look at what was reported by the original poster about his experiemce at Goa


Almost 20 minutes went by when I saw a person in uniform - a navy man.

I could also see the flashing lights of fire engines in the distance, but they were unable to approach the plane due to the difficult terrain.

About 25 minutes after the incident, I saw the first stretcher being brought towards us





Yes we can argue this one happened at Goa, the Air India Express was at Mangalore. We can say, Goa is a cilvil enclave of a naval airport, Mangalore is an AAI one . We can keep on endlessly arguing about a lot of other things as quite a few of us have done in this thread already.

But let us all not forget one thing first and foremost. We are talking about human lives!
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Old 8th April 2017, 15:00   #132
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Those a very broad statements. Without agreeing how that is measured or compared it doesn’t have any value at all. So let’s look at some details.

When discussing and wanting to compare aviation safety per nation I would suggest we use the ICAO ratings.

See http://www.icao.int/safety/Pages/USOAP-Results.aspx
Very good data points to put things into perspective.

What is a matter of immense consolation to me, as a frequent traveler, is that the Indian aviation industry does well in the following:

1) Airworthiness
2) Operations

You could say these are the two most aspects of the actual "flying".

We all know we are awful at legislation, and worse at implementation.

The one metric that we would be absolutely disastrous at would perhaps be "accident preparedness".

Human life has negligible value in India so we miss a lot of efforts towards this, emergency services for example.

Last edited by libranof1987 : 8th April 2017 at 15:02.
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Old 8th April 2017, 15:13   #133
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by TKMCE View Post
That report on the Mangalore crash had an entire chaper of recommendations! See chapter 4 of the report please.

Look at Recommendation 4.2.10, "Suitability of RFF Vehicles for the type of terrain".

Now look at what was reported by the original poster about his experiemce at Goa


Almost 20 minutes went by when I saw a person in uniform - a navy man.

I could also see the flashing lights of fire engines in the distance, but they were unable to approach the plane due to the difficult terrain.

About 25 minutes after the incident, I saw the first stretcher being brought towards us





Yes we can argue this one happened at Goa, the Air India Express was at Mangalore. We can say, Goa is a cilvil enclave of a naval airport, Mangalore is an AAI one . We can keep on endlessly arguing about a lot of other things as quite a few of us have done in this thread already.

But let us all not forget one thing first and foremost. We are talking about human lives!
As someone righrly said about quarter knowledge.... AAI doesnt report into DGCA. unlike the FAA, the DGCA can only recommend in this case since airport operations are under AAI. Defence airports dont come under civilian control at all. Its all in good understanding that Dabolim is even open to civil traffic. Hence fire trucks in Dabolim belong to the navy not to AAI. All aai airport fire trucks are the offroad kinds,able to reach any area in the acceptable/set time period.
If human lives did matter we should elect educated people who will have a parliamentary reform on govt functioning. Since we are now discussing safe airport operations please have a look at places like port blair or jammu, even patna. Places where a large jet transport shouldnt land at all.
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Old 8th April 2017, 17:33   #134
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
As someone righrly said about quarter knowledge.... AAI doesnt report into DGCA. unlike the FAA, the DGCA can only recommend in this case since airport operations are under AAI. Defence airports dont come under civilian control at all. Its all in good understanding that Dabolim is even open to civil traffic. Hence fire trucks in Dabolim belong to the navy not to AAI. All aai airport fire trucks are the offroad kinds,able to reach any area in the acceptable/set time period.
If human lives did matter we should elect educated people who will have a parliamentary reform on govt functioning. Since we are now discussing safe airport operations please have a look at places like port blair or jammu, even patna. Places where a large jet transport shouldnt land at all.
To all the gentlemen here with the remaining three quarters knowlege, hats off to you. I acknolwlege your superior knowledge. I am also aware of all you gentlemen are saying and this is also precisely the reason why I higlighted all this in the first place with a cross section of incidents.

We are having a series of incidents, most do not get higlighted and whatever does they fade off from public memory fast while many key recommendations just remain that.....recommendations.

Yes, AAI does not report to DGCA, our Aircraft accident investigation bureau has limited authority unlike NTSB in US or AAIB in UK. In fact "apachelongbow" since you started off by asking whether there were any recommendations about the Mangalore accident in the first place, the last recommendation of a comprehensive list - 4.4.1 deals with precisely what you are saying namely "Setting up of Indian Civil Aviation Board" in the lines of NTSB . What has been done???

Recommendation 4.2.10 of that incident I highlighted dealt with a serious accident in an AAI airport namely Mangalore. So does that mean we should not ensure whoever runs any non AAI airport whether Airforce, Navy or Private have similar RFF capabilities like an AAI airport? If they had in Goa, then why did it take 20 or 25 minutes for the first assistance to come ? .Do not forget Goa is now handling around 60 to 70 domestic flights daily in addition to international flights including widebodies.


If human lifes does matter, in addition to blaming it on the parliamentarians , why does not the pilots who fly to these dangerous airports highlight these issues?? Because when others with less" superior" knowlege do in forums like this, some people blame it on "one quarter" knowledge. or what not. Finally it is not the micro issues like whether the MEL resolution time for coffee boilers is 100 days or 119 which is the most important factor which will prevent the loss of precious human lives if heaven forbids another accident happens. Learning from the lessons of the past is more important.

Last edited by TKMCE : 8th April 2017 at 17:34.
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Old 9th April 2017, 00:24   #135
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Default Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway

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Originally Posted by TKMCE View Post
To all the gentlemen here with the remaining three quarters knowlege, hats off to you. I acknolwlege your superior knowledge. I am also aware of all you gentlemen are saying and this is also precisely the reason why I higlighted all this in the first place with a cross section of incidents.

We are having a series of incidents, most do not get higlighted and whatever does they fade off from public memory fast while many key recommendations just remain that.....recommendations.

Yes, AAI does not report to DGCA, our Aircraft accident investigation bureau has limited authority unlike NTSB in US or AAIB in UK. In fact "apachelongbow" since you started off by asking whether there were any recommendations about the Mangalore accident in the first place, the last recommendation of a comprehensive list - 4.4.1 deals with precisely what you are saying namely "Setting up of Indian Civil Aviation Board" in the lines of NTSB . What has been done???

Recommendation 4.2.10 of that incident I highlighted dealt with a serious accident in an AAI airport namely Mangalore. So does that mean we should not ensure whoever runs any non AAI airport whether Airforce, Navy or Private have similar RFF capabilities like an AAI airport? If they had in Goa, then why did it take 20 or 25 minutes for the first assistance to come ? .Do not forget Goa is now handling around 60 to 70 domestic flights daily in addition to international flights including widebodies.


If human lifes does matter, in addition to blaming it on the parliamentarians , why does not the pilots who fly to these dangerous airports highlight these issues?? Because when others with less" superior" knowlege do in forums like this, some people blame it on "one quarter" knowledge. or what not. Finally it is not the micro issues like whether the MEL resolution time for coffee boilers is 100 days or 119 which is the most important factor which will prevent the loss of precious human lives if heaven forbids another accident happens. Learning from the lessons of the past is more important.
I fully agree and support what you wrote. However the only party to fully blame is the great government of India. If any changes are to take place, it is they who have the authority and means to do it, not airlines and certianly not pilots or airport staff. Hence request you to blame the appropriate party in this case the central government and in particular the aviation ministry. They are solely responsible for setup of an independant board, free from govt clutches, but will they want to keep their grubby paws off the golden goose?
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