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Old 29th April 2017, 15:39   #1
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Default BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Ashok Leyland has showcased its range of products featuring Intelligent Exhaust Gas Re-circulation (iEGR) technology to adhere to BS-IV emission norms, and its industry-leading services at its annual Global Conference 2017.

Globally, two technologies are used for meeting the latest emission standards – SCR (selective catalytic reduction), which is used by companies like Daimler, and EGR (exhaust gas re-circulation).

Ashok Leyland has brought its indigenous innovation in the EGR technology to not only meet BS-IV emission norms but also ensure reliability. About 200 engineers in its R&D wing worked on developing the new technology.

Read full article here..
http://autotechreview.com/news/item/...echnology.html

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle9657209.ece

http://rajasthanpatrika.patrika.com/...s-2558257.html
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Old 29th April 2017, 20:51   #2
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Default re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Will this technology be a significant differentiator for Ashok Leyland vis-a-vis the competition? Will they be able to undercut the competition and sell more vehicles? Increase their market share?
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Old 29th April 2017, 22:46   #3
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Default re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

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Originally Posted by naut View Post
Will this technology be a significant differentiator for Ashok Leyland vis-a-vis the competition?
No. Although trucking is a different world but in general end user do not need to do anything with technology. He wants a reliable product with good service network.

Their main problem is spare parts availability which is decreasing their market share.

Quote:
Will they be able to undercut the competition and sell more vehicles? Increase their market share?
Strong marketing is a must. TATA and Mahindra has hired ‘Akshay Kumar’ & ‘Ajay Devgan’ for advertising but leylend has not done till now (I mean they are not aggressive in marketing).

A.L. says that they have achieved this with minimal electronics and sensors (this is the reason; I have created this thread).

+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)? Is it implemented in any indian vehicle?
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Old 30th April 2017, 07:05   #4
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Default re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

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Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)? Is it implemented in any indian vehicle?
Did a Google search : check this link

http://www.dieselforum.org/about-cle...el/what-is-scr

Quote:
Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) is an advanced active emissions control technology system that injects a liquid-reductant agent through a special catalyst into the exhaust stream of a diesel engine. The reductant source is usually automotive-grade urea, otherwise known as Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF). The DEF sets off a chemical reaction that converts nitrogen oxides into nitrogen, water and tiny amounts of carbon dioxide (CO2), natural components of the air we breathe, which is then expelled through the vehicle tailpipe.

SCR technology is designed to permit nitrogen oxide (NOx) reduction reactions to take place in an oxidizing atmosphere. It is called "selective" because it reduces levels of NOx using ammonia as a reductant within a catalyst system. The chemical reaction is known as "reduction" where the DEF is the reducing agent that reacts with NOx to convert the pollutants into nitrogen, water and tiny amounts of CO2. The DEF can be rapidly broken down to produce the oxidizing ammonia in the exhaust stream.

Last edited by a4anurag : 30th April 2017 at 07:07.
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Old 1st May 2017, 09:33   #5
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Default re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Likewise with Tata Motors. Sharing from the Press Release:

Quote:
Tata Motors’ Commercial Vehicles are BSIV ready with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) and new future leading Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR).

• Tata Motors is the first OEM to have introduced EGR technology in India in 2010 for BS IV on commercial vehicles

• EGR is developed in-house and covers the entire range of Tata engines including the new generation 3-litre and 5-litre engines

• Tata Motors then created new benchmark with SCR technology in 2014 for M&HCV Truck and bus applications on Tata Cummins engines

• SCR offers cleaner exhaust; better power and fuel efficiency

• SCR is the globally proven technology for all Euro 4 and above applications for the entire range of M&HCV, in both emerging as well as developed markets such as the U.S. & Europe

• SCR will enable Tata Motors to meet stringent BS VI emission norms

Mumbai, April 26, 2017: Tata Motors, the country’s largest truck and bus manufacturer, announced readiness of SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) and EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) technologies for BSIV compliant engines, powering its range of Commercial Vehicles.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) technology adopted by Tata Motors in 2010 will continue to power small-to-medium category of commercial vehicles with engine power requirements up to 180HP. EGR helps to reduce NOx emissions from the engine. Additionally, Tata Motors has adopted the globally proven SCR technology since 2014 for its Medium and Heavy-Duty Commercial vehicles ranging from 130HP to 400HP. Tata Cummins Ltd, a JV between Tata Motors and US-based Cummins Inc. has developed these engines. SCR technology allows engine to operate at more optimal combustion temperature providing better power, fuel efficiency and lower NOx and particulate matter generation.

While EGR is a relatively low cost, simple, and ‘easy to integrate’ technology, SCR can be scaled up further to meet the stringent BS VI emission standards. Tata Motors has perfected both the SCR and EGR technologies on a wide range of TML vehicles that have been sold to customers within India as well as abroad.

About SCR and EGR

Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) is a process that simply adds a Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) into the exhaust gas stream and filters it through a catalyst. The DEF vaporizes and decomposes to form ammonia (NH3), which in conjunction with the SCR catalyst reacts with NOx (Nitrogen oxides) to convert the pollutant into nitrogen (N2) and water (H2O) which are released into the air. SCR technology uses less fuel since the engine is tuned to cut NOx and can instead be set up for performance and economy. In addition, fewer active "regenerations" of diesel particulate filters are needed to burn off soot, which in turn uses less fuel.

SCR is a globally proven technology which almost every diesel engine manufacturer has adopted. All the major commercial vehicle OEMs across the world have chosen SCR to comply with new and upcoming emission standards.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) is a Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) emissions reduction technique within the engine that re-circulates a portion of an engine's exhaust gas back to the engine cylinders after cooling, depriving it of certain amount of oxygen, leading to lower temperature burn. EGR uses enhanced electronic controls, even-higher-pressure fuel injection, multiple coolers, and optimized turbocharging. This reduces NOx emissions. However, EGR technology has limited potential in terms of being up scaled.

The new technologies will help reduce emissions of NOx. Additionally, compliance to BSIV emission norms (with OBDII) will require accurate control on the engine combustion. This can only be achieved with electronic engines and hence the Indian M&HCV market will experience a significant transition from mechanical to electronic engines.
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Old 1st May 2017, 10:37   #6
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)? Is it implemented in any indian vehicle?
SCR or active emissions control is done by using an additive a solution of urea and goes by the name adblue/bluetec/diesel exhaust fluid. Its purpose is to reduce nitrogen oxides in diesel exhaust.

SCR is the third stage in Diesel exhaust gas treatment. 1st one being an oxidation catalytic converter, 2nd being DPF or diesel particulate filter which traps soot and 3rd comes SCR.

Here most Diesel vehicles are still in stage 1. IIRC no Diesel passenger vehicle has SCR implemented in it yet. With implementation of Bharat 6 in 2020 (6 years behind Euro6) we can expect this to change.
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Old 1st May 2017, 11:11   #7
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

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Originally Posted by naut View Post
Will this technology be a significant differentiator for Ashok Leyland vis-a-vis the competition? Will they be able to undercut the competition and sell more vehicles? Increase their market share?
Ashok Leyland has been increasing its overall market share for the past few consecutive years from 27% to 32%. Their strong conviction about indigenous technology suited for Indian conditions has a significant contribution to this. The best example is of the "Inline FIP" in BS3. It is said that AL is the only company to achieve BS3 (in automotive application) with Inline FIP system. The result is, an Indian operator has normal technology (local maintenance friendly) truck performing at higher emission standards, without adding to his operating cost. Hence in this context, if we look at this "iEGR", then there is scope for hope that it may become a differentiator for AL.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
No. Although trucking is a different world but in general end user do not need to do anything with technology. He wants a reliable product with good service network.

Their main problem is spare parts availability which is decreasing their market share.

Strong marketing is a must. TATA and Mahindra has hired ‘Akshay Kumar’ & ‘Ajay Devgan’ for advertising but leylend has not done till now (I mean they are not aggressive in marketing).

A.L. says that they have achieved this with minimal electronics and sensors (this is the reason; I have created this thread).
Don't think spare parts availability is an issue nowadays. If that was so, then they would not have increased market share when compared to competition.

When it comes to marketing, AL was in the forefront with M S Dhoni as its ambassador even before TaMo and MBTL came up with those celebrities.

And finally whats interesting about iEGR is that, when usual EGR recirculates 20-30% of exhaust gas depending upon conditions, AL claims to have achieved this with 10-12% re-circulation. This is significant, when we consider the fact that it will not affect the engine life badly unlike what is being propagated by SCR using competition.

Interestingly, with Eicher also coming the EGR way with their Pro5000 (VE-i3EGR) series, TaMo will not be left behind, expect they too will follow.
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Old 1st May 2017, 20:21   #8
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

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Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
No. Although trucking is a different world but in general end user do not need to do anything with technology. He wants a reliable product with good service network.
Reliable product means he cant spend a bomb for his service. Commercial vehicle industry is lot more matured than the passenger car industry and unlike how cars are bought trucks are't bought. Every single rupee they spend for service will be detailed before purchasing and that decides the overall total cost of ownership.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
Their main problem is spare parts availability which is decreasing their market share.
As quoted by Transenger, Ashok Leyland is increasing its market share YoY for last 4 to 5 years and now they are at ~33%, as against Tata which is actually decreasing and Mahindra still in single digits. Infact its not even right to quote Mahindra with Tata and AL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post
Strong marketing is a must. TATA and Mahindra has hired ‘Akshay Kumar’ & ‘Ajay Devgan’ for advertising but leylend has not done till now (I mean they are not aggressive in marketing).
Akshay and Ajay will not bring a single truck lead for both. Those are all for only brand building. Mahindra always markets its trucks the same way as it does for Cars and they still get the point that they are different. 7 ~ 8 years back when Mahindra launched trucks, they gave full page advertisement in all national and regional daily and spent enough to understand there was hardly any footfalls to the showrooms. Only later they understood to sell a truck one needs to visit customer and he doesn't come to showroom always.

So underlining fact is neither of the celebrities bring sales, rather its more of brand building and that's what Ashok Leyland established with MSD four year back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IN-RJ View Post

A.L. says that they have achieved this with minimal electronics and sensors (this is the reason; I have created this thread).

+we are seeing EGR technology since BS-III era in our cars but can any-one explain what is SCR (selective catalytic reduction)? Is it implemented in any indian vehicle?
Commercial vehicles with SCR is sold by Ashok Leyland since 2010 and all the BS IV AL buses in MTC are all with SCR. Basically the emission reduction happens outside engine by spraying a Diesel Exhaust Fluid or diluted urea.
EGR in cars can't be compared with Commercial vehicles directly. In case of CV's, even if an engine fails at 4lks it will be considered as a 'Low Life". It was told that EGR will have lesser engine lift as against SCR based trucks. But again AL has worked on a different strategy to recirculate exhaust gas than what its done traditionally. So that's the reason, they claim their i-EGR better than regular than EGR.

Also EGR is little tricky and not every engine responds positively. Tata 697 engine with EGR is running with MTC for 3 years and the performance isn't satisfactory. So even if a manufacturer wanted to go for EGR its a compromise, but Ashok Leyland has claimed that they have overcome these issues. We don't have any field record as of now and we will need to wait for an year to get partial feedback and 3 yrs to get full details. But honestly I am very much excited and if it clicks they will take the market share to next level in next 3 years, like how they got differentiated with inline pump in past.

This video will help to understand EGR and SCR better.



And more details here : 6 Facts that differentiates i-EGR from EGR and SCR/

Last edited by Ashley2 : 1st May 2017 at 20:37.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 17:35   #9
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

In Qatar, there are lot of used trucks imported from European countries which are Eurov and EuroVI. The Mercedes Benz actros trucks have a special tank for Adblue fluid. To be honest I don't see a single truck with a non-empty tank and they run perfectly fine. So my point is even if the OEM implement an SCR system, if the customer doesn't refill the tank, the system will be as good as dead. Same fate is also for the EGR system. If the customer un plug the EGR actuator nothing will happen and trucks run fine with more emission. So the government should make it mandatory that all on-road vehicles should have an electronic controlled fuel injection and emission testing should be carried out periodically.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 21:23   #10
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Any thoughts on Navistar/ EGRs?

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Old 3rd May 2017, 00:32   #11
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Originally Posted by dracul View Post
In Qatar, there are lot of used trucks imported from European countries which are Eurov and EuroVI. The Mercedes Benz actros trucks have a special tank for Adblue fluid. To be honest I don't see a single truck with a non-empty tank and they run perfectly fine. So my point is even if the OEM implement an SCR system, if the customer doesn't refill the tank, the system will be as good as dead. Same fate is also for the EGR system. If the customer un plug the EGR actuator nothing will happen and trucks run fine with more emission. So the government should make it mandatory that all on-road vehicles should have an electronic controlled fuel injection and emission testing should be carried out periodically.
These kind of regulations are already mandated through OBD II since 2011 -12. As mentioned trucks cant run in the same way when Adblue is not available. They will go to limp-home or torque reduction mode. You can't operate trucks more than 30kmph. So whatever mentioned is already available.

Last edited by Aditya : 3rd May 2017 at 16:08. Reason: As requested
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Old 3rd May 2017, 00:59   #12
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Default Re: BS-IV engines with EGR & SCR in Commercial Vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by dracul View Post
In Qatar, there are lot of used trucks imported from European countries which are Eurov and EuroVI. The Mercedes Benz actros trucks have a special tank for Adblue fluid. To be honest I don't see a single truck with a non-empty tank and they run perfectly fine. So my point is even if the OEM implement an SCR system, if the customer doesn't refill the tank, the system will be as good as dead. Same fate is also for the EGR system. If the customer un plug the EGR actuator nothing will happen and trucks run fine with more emission. So the government should make it mandatory that all on-road vehicles should have an electronic controlled fuel injection and emission testing should be carried out periodically.
Two points:
1. For the SCR system, unless there's a remap done to the engine ECU, the engine's output will be limited and it will enter a Limp mode when the AdBlue tank is empty. So, either they've done something or the AdBlue tank is not empty.
2. It is not so easy to just unplug the EGR valve actuator and keep running normally. There will be a CEL (Check Engine Light) and it has to be taken care of before the engine can run at normal power output. But, I don't see the need to do fiddle with the EGR system unless the drivers are trying to clock quarter-mile times.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Any thoughts on Navistar/ EGRs?
If you are talking about the erstwhile Mahindra-Navistar trucks, that are now sold as Mahindra trucks, then I assume they are using EGR tech - their website claims they are meeting BS-4 norms without after-treatment.

Their ex- technology partner, Navistar Inc. uses SCR technology to meet Euro-5 norms. I do not know what their strategy is for E-6 and equivalent.

Last edited by silversteed : 3rd May 2017 at 01:04.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 20:48   #13
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If you are talking about the erstwhile Mahindra-Navistar trucks,
Navistar of US.

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