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Old 11th May 2017, 14:06   #16
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Default re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

This is no doubt a design flaw that could be avoided. Thanks to you we got some more information on tractor mechanism.


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Originally Posted by shravan2k2 View Post
I hope Mr. Anand Mahindra reads the following 11 points!
On this point had just seen today tweets from Mr. Anand Mahindra on various interesting events going on in their tractor division.

It would definitely reach him directly if someone shares this thread with him at his twitter handle @anandmahindra
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Old 11th May 2017, 21:24   #17
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

Reading through your problems I can only sympathise with you. After documenting the whole bad experience, why not give a legal notice asking them for replacement (with an improved design or cash back) and compensation.

You will have to engage a lawyer convrsant with Consumer Courts. That's the best way to teach them a good lesson.
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Old 11th May 2017, 23:27   #18
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

A Team-BHP Fan who'd rather stay anonymous drops the following note:

Quote:
Hi! I came across this thread. So, I thought about sharing my experience at the R&D department of Swaraj Mahindra.

I have worked with PTL/Mahindra Swaraj till 2012. 735FE is one of the oldest (since 1973) model company still sells. It is the Alto of Swaraj. But, being old it has many design flaws. And their R&D division is like a govt department.

They have their old hand drawn design sheets which they don't want to alter at any cost. I was a young GET and I came across many such design flaws (for e.g. their gearbox has an issue that it is non repairable because one circlip on the drive shaft once fitted can not be removed back etc.), so I tried to take the initiative and went to R&D with some of the possible solutions, but all my project sheets were scrapped.

They are too reluctant to resolve any such design flaw. They know they're selling all they produce (production was 75 tractors per shift back then). I respect the brand for its long journey from a state owned company to a part of Mahindra, but not the people there, especially in R&D.
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Old 12th May 2017, 00:29   #19
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

I would advise tweeting to anand mahindra. Yes it may seem ridiculous considering what you've already done, including physically going down to the RnD centre.

He is known to pay heed to even smallest of the tweets so it may be helpful.
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Old 12th May 2017, 00:33   #20
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

Quote:
Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
I would advise tweeting to anand mahindra. Yes it may seem ridiculous considering what you've already done, including physically going down to the RnD centre.

He is known to pay heed to even smallest of the tweets so it may be helpful.
That's the first thing I did when I saw the thread. It's been more than a day but no reply whatsoever. Why don't you try again personally?

The r&d officials as GTO sir's post mentions are the ones with the worst attitude of the lot.

Seriously, I respect Mahindra for the advancemnets they have made in the field of cars, but what they are doing now is cheating innocent farmers.


Quoting my tweet here:

Quote:
@anandmahindra the tractors being sold by Mahindra seem to have a major design flaw. Kindly look into it.

(link: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commer...no-recall.html) team-bhp.com/forum/commerci…

Last edited by vishy76 : 12th May 2017 at 00:36.
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Old 12th May 2017, 00:45   #21
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
That's the first thing I did when I saw the thread. It's been more than a day but no reply whatsoever. Why don't you try again personally?

The r&d officials as GTO sir's post mentions are the ones with the worst attitude of the lot.

Seriously, I respect Mahindra for the advancemnets they have made in the field of cars, but what they are doing now is cheating innocent farmers.


Quoting my tweet here:
Sorry to hear that.

I have retweeted your tweet, hopefully it comes to notice if you get more retweets.

I would advise everybody reading this forum to retweet your request to Anand mahindra. Hopefully that can help

Posting the link, which everybody can follow to retweet
https://twitter.com/KainPradeep/stat...31009765531649
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Old 12th May 2017, 04:49   #22
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Sorry for a basic question but this problem of water spilling out of expansion cooling water tank is only observed during winter time.?
But in summers when ambient temp is higher there is no water spilling out and the system functions in the normal way with no water loss.
Please confirm if my understanding is correct.
Thank you
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Old 12th May 2017, 06:49   #23
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shravan2k2 View Post

1 - The Mahindra Swaraj 735FE tractor actually starts throwing coolant from the back up tank, which makes its way to the alternator.
After confirming that the thermostat valve is working at the correct temperature check the head gasket. Before that re-tighten all the head bolts in the correct sequence.
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Old 12th May 2017, 11:34   #24
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

Dear shravan2k2,

The problem could be due to one or multiple of the following reasons:
  • Faulty Thermostat (a batch of it could be recalled, may be)
  • Faulty Pump, working at higher pressure ().
  • Clogged Engine Cylinder Block
  • Clogged Radiator Inlet/Outlet Hose
  • Clogged Radiator Finned Pipes (due to dirt, dust, soil, coolant corrosion/deposition etc.)

Please try to check the above points, if the problem still exists, well then.... time to get rid of that filthy machine!

On the leakage/spillage front, you can en-case the fluid tank (as suggested by someone, with a plastic container), route the overflow back to the tank itself (to save fluid) and also try to cover the alternator & other crucial parts (partially) if possible.

All the Best

Last edited by Rehaan : 12th May 2017 at 11:40. Reason: Adding LIST tag :)
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Old 12th May 2017, 16:07   #25
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Default Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks ever...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shravan2k2 View Post
1 - The Mahindra Swaraj 735FE tractor actually starts throwing coolant from the back up tank, which makes its way to the alternator.

2 - The issue again cropped up and the dealer agreed to change the Thermostat Valve.

3 - In November 2015 the same issue cropped up and was reported to the dealer again, and the dealer again changed the Thermostat valve. After approximately 10 hours of tractor's running time, the same coolant issue was observed.

Good to see Team BHP being used to help our framer brothers. All support to you in your crusade.


If you are ready for some jugaad, can you try these please.


Thermostat Valve: Can you try a different company's thermostat valve. What I mean is, most thermostat valves open at 180F coolant temperature. So it does not matter if you use a car's thermostat valve. May be yank one out from a Maruti. Just that you will have to jugaad it into the tractor cooling system.



Radiator cap: Inside the radiator cap there are 2 valves, one to let the hot coolant escape into the overflow tank, other to bring it back into the radiator. Need to look into the cap as well. Again try a different engine's cap. One more to yank from that Maruti. I am assuming these days the cap is more or less same across different engines. The pressure rating is typically 1 bar gauge pressure (15 psig). Some engines may have a higher pressure rating, but I think small engines typically have it at 1 bar. Try fitting a different cap.

It is possible that there is a design flaw or a manufacturing flaw in the radiator cap, thermostat or the path from overflow tank to the pump. These are 3 things to check first before assuming possible issues with engine block area

Name:  RadiatorRoughoutline.PNG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Sorry to hear about this obvious design flaw. What were the engineers thinking!

Can't you use some simple jugaad to get the coolant tank relocated, or fix a plate under it (that blocks coolant dropping right below on the alternator)?
Does these engines need the overflow tank to be above the pump - Net Positive suction head requirement thing ? So may this relocation option is limited. But may be possible laterally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohit Gawande View Post
Dear shravan2k2,

On the leakage/spillage front, you can en-case the fluid tank (as suggested by someone, with a plastic container), route the overflow back to the tank itself (to save fluid) and also try to cover the alternator & other crucial parts (partially) if possible.

Routing the hot boiling coolant back is a bit dangerous. The energy will have to escape someway. May be it will blow off the overflow tank lid itself ! Never contain energy trying to escape out, you will have an explosion in hand. If the lid does not blow out, then the fluid can also push open the return line valve in the cap and now you are introducing boiling coolant back into the cooling system.

Last edited by Rehaan : 16th May 2017 at 16:49. Reason: Reducing excessive blank spaces
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Old 12th May 2017, 21:50   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
An interesting conundrum, this.

The location of the coolant expansion tank over the alternator is not an unusual design, since the expansion tank is not expected to overflow on any regular basis.

However, loss of coolant due to overflow from the expansion chamber, associated with uneven temperature distribution in the radiator as well as the problem occurring in winter...

... points to either a design or component flaw in the coolant system closed loop, that M&M is unable to pinpoint.

2 questions:

1) Is this a common rail diesel, or Di/IDI?

2) If the engine is revved while the radiator cap is open (in a cold engine), do you see the coolant surging/boiling heavily inside?

I would not like to suggest any solutions at present, especially since many things have been tried already, but am subscribed to the thread to learn if any fix comes about in the future.
It might not be an unusual placement but I can guarantee even while topping up it can spill.

1 - it's a direct injection engine
2 - will have to do and try it myself.

There can be many fixes only, if, the company really wants to do something about it. Two years now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by girishglg View Post
This is no doubt a design flaw that could be avoided. Thanks to you we got some more information on tractor mechanism.

On this point had just seen today tweets from Mr. Anand Mahindra on various interesting events going on in their tractor division.

It would definitely reach him directly if someone shares this thread with him at his twitter handle @anandmahindra
Already tweeted with the link to this topic and also previously asked for help from him. But, nothing till now, as it involves farmers. He can gift people who modify their rear to something hideous resembling to their vehicle. But, won't care for a farmer I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
Reading through your problems I can only sympathise with you. After documenting the whole bad experience, why not give a legal notice asking them for replacement (with an improved design or cash back) and compensation.

You will have to engage a lawyer convrsant with Consumer Courts. That's the best way to teach them a good lesson.
Legal notice would be my last option now. I never took this issue on team-bhp till now considering they were always telling me they are working on it. It actually became a habit by the R&D department to ignore mails and he is not even cared about the issue. Trust me all the tractors 735fe are having this problem. Farmers are not educated on the same and have been topping up the coolant regularly as they are not aware this does not require to be done on such tractors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
I would advise tweeting to anand mahindra. Yes it may seem ridiculous considering what you've already done, including physically going down to the RnD centre.

He is known to pay heed to even smallest of the tweets so it may be helpful.
Tweeted twice personally and even I am from automobile sector but, they seem to be too arrogant. Will retweet yours. Even shared on www.speedhounds.com Facebook page as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
That's the first thing I did when I saw the thread. It's been more than a day but no reply whatsoever. Why don't you try again personally?

The r&d officials as GTO sir's post mentions are the ones with the worst attitude of the lot.

Seriously, I respect Mahindra for the advancemnets they have made in the field of cars, but what they are doing now is cheating innocent farmers.

Quoting my tweet here:
Ridiculous attitude of R@D department especially R&D head. I would like to tell everyone the dealership and service technician were the most helpful of all, they did all they could do before raising their hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
Sorry to hear that.

I have retweeted your tweet, hopefully it comes to notice if you get more retweets.

I would advise everybody reading this forum to retweet your request to Anand mahindra. Hopefully that can help

Posting the link, which everybody can follow to retweet

https://twitter.com/KainPradeep/stat...31009765531649
Thanks team mate, will retweet yours as I have tweeted twice personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norhog View Post
Sorry for a basic question but this problem of water spilling out of expansion cooling water tank is only observed during winter time.?
But in summers when ambient temp is higher there is no water spilling out and the system functions in the normal way with no water loss.
Please confirm if my understanding is correct.
Thank you
Yes the coolant tank spills majorly during winters and not In summers. But, engine would never achieve optimum running temperature. I even asked the company people to put a gauge and show me the temperature, but they never did it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
After confirming that the thermostat valve is working at the correct temperature check the head gasket. Before that re-tighten all the head bolts in the correct sequence.
Would check for the same, but I believe it's the company who should do it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohit Gawande View Post
Dear shravan2k2,

The problem could be due to one or multiple of the following reasons:
  • Faulty Thermostat (a batch of it could be recalled, may be)
  • Faulty Pump, working at higher pressure ().
  • Clogged Engine Cylinder Block
  • Clogged Radiator Inlet/Outlet Hose
  • Clogged Radiator Finned Pipes (due to dirt, dust, soil, coolant corrosion/deposition etc.)

Please try to check the above points, if the problem still exists, well then.... time to get rid of that filthy machine!

On the leakage/spillage front, you can en-case the fluid tank (as suggested by someone, with a plastic container), route the overflow back to the tank itself (to save fluid) and also try to cover the alternator & other crucial parts (partially) if possible.

All the Best
Seems more like thermostat issue as the radiator remains ice cold at the bottom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
Good to see Team BHP being used to help our framer brothers. All support to you in your crusade.

If you are ready for some jugaad, can you try these please.

Thermostat Valve: Can you try a different company's thermostat valve. What I mean is, most thermostat valves open at 180F coolant temperature. So it does not matter if you use a car's thermostat valve. May be yank one out from a Maruti. Just that you will have to jugaad it into the tractor cooling system.

Radiator cap: Inside the radiator cap there are 2 valves, one to let the hot coolant escape into the overflow tank, other to bring it back into the radiator. Need to look into the cap as well. Again try a different engine's cap. One more to yank from that Maruti. I am assuming these days the cap is more or less same across different engines. The pressure rating is typically 1 bar gauge pressure (15 psig). Some engines may have a higher pressure rating, but I think small engines typically have it at 1 bar. Try fitting a different cap.

It is possible that there is a design flaw or a manufacturing flaw in the radiator cap, thermostat or the path from overflow tank to the pump. These are 3 things to check first before assuming possible issues with engine block area

Does these engines need the overflow tank to be above the pump - Net Positive suction head requirement thing ? So may this relocation option is limited. But may be possible laterally.

Routing the hot boiling coolant back is a bit dangerous. The energy will have to escape someway. May be it will blow off the overflow tank lid itself ! Never contain energy trying to escape out, you will have an explosion in hand. If the lid does not blow out, then the fluid can also push open the return line valve in the cap and now you are introducing boiling coolant back into the cooling system.

Thanks to team-bhp for supporting farmers.

On the thermostat point I can try out a different one. Actually this machine has a three way Opening and it is partially always open. I took this with R&D but they never agreed to it. As the machine has a mechanical fan. I will have to look if something can be done. But, preference would be company employees to come and do the same.
Radiator cap has already been changed by the company thinking it would help. But, it was also of no use. Things remain the same.

On the relocation of the tank. They have higher models which have the tank placed differently and not above radiator. It's not that it can't be done. But, they are not willing to do it. Even Kirloskar would agree to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
A Team-BHP Fan who'd rather stay anonymous drops the following note:

Thanks to this anonymous team mate. These are the type of employees who want to do something but the arrogant department heads would never let them do it. I know it's OT but only because of such attitude employees leave and customers are taken for granted. Appreciate his points and I know this is the reason farmers are suffering with faulty tractors.

Last edited by Rehaan : 16th May 2017 at 16:48. Reason: Reducing blank space in quote
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Old 13th May 2017, 01:58   #27
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

Try to change the thermostat from a different Swaraj tractor with similar engine layout, my guess is it could be same. Make sure there is no air lock in the radiator. Sometimes a bad head gasket can route coolant into the exhaust, as your exhaust is vertical and any coolant sign would be visible by removing the exhaust. Also compare the radiator fan to other model which does not has this issue. I know the design was changed few years back as my friend supplies the fan to the Delhi tractor market. He was OEM supplier to Swaraj once.
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Old 14th May 2017, 17:39   #28
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Default Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks ever...

Thank you Shravan2k2, for answering the question.
My guess is since the problem of coolant spilling occurs in winter and as mentioned before the radiator remains cold at the end, I believe the radiator is over designed.
So in winter is is possible to block air flow over a portion.
The excessively cold coolant entering the engine after passing through the radiator is causing subsequent lower temp at the engine outlet.
So now the three way valve bypasses the radiator completely. This causes rapid rise in coolant temp and causes spilling of coolant before the 3 way valve can send coolant to the radiator.
This is my guess anyway.
Blocking the radiator will cause higher engine coolant temp and maintain the 3way valve at a position where some coolant is flowing to the radiator.
OR conversely a faster acting 3way valve may be used which I believe will be harder to source and fit.

This is my understanding any way.
So when this problem is happening, in winters, can you try by blocking off air flow to radiator partially.
Experts please feel free to counter this theory.

Last edited by norhog : 14th May 2017 at 17:41.
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Old 15th May 2017, 11:38   #29
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Default Re: Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks everywhere!

The cooling circuit of a tractor is very simple and unless there is some major crack in the Engine block water jacket or a faulty water body or a punctured radiator ..there is nothing serious in the cooling circuit which could invite design blames .

Swaraj has been an Industry leader and making best of the tractors indeginously. It's tractors are well accepted in the market and command high resale value. This is due to perfection in design and manufacturing and relatively good aftersale service department.

Usually, farmers opt to remove the thermostat valve from the cooling circuit due to extremely hot weather conditions of India and even replace the coolant with plain water, which go quite well with all tractors. The alternator is water proof and has no problem bearing water splashes during washing and paddy field jobs ..almost submerging into slush at times.

One of the major problems with over flowing of radiator cap or coolant bottle is due to a leaking head gasket, which itself could be the consequence of a faulty thermostat valve. Do check for a boil in the Radiator or keep the coolant level little lower than the normal. But as the pictures reveal ..there could be workmanship troubles with the local Dealer's workshop.

I don't find any problem with the design fault in the placement of Coolant water bottle over the Alternator as such.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:17   #30
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Default Major design flaw in the Mahindra Swaraj Tractor – 735 FE. Coolant leaks ever...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
Try to change the thermostat from a different Swaraj tractor with similar engine layout, my guess is it could be same. Make sure there is no air lock in the radiator. Sometimes a bad head gasket can route coolant into the exhaust, as your exhaust is vertical and any coolant sign would be visible by removing the exhaust. Also compare the radiator fan to other model which does not has this issue. I know the design was changed few years back as my friend supplies the fan to the Delhi tractor market. He was OEM supplier to Swaraj once.
Yes, that can be done but only If the head of R&D agrees to any of these only then can we go forward with any of these experiments. I am afraid the most ridiculous R&D head I have met till now. He even walked out of the meeting when we specially came to their office in Mohali to just give him the feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norhog View Post
Thank you Shravan2k2, for answering the question.
My guess is since the problem of coolant spilling occurs in winter and as mentioned before the radiator remains cold at the end, I believe the radiator is over designed.
So in winter is is possible to block air flow over a portion.
The excessively cold coolant entering the engine after passing through the radiator is causing subsequent lower temp at the engine outlet.
So now the three way valve bypasses the radiator completely. This causes rapid rise in coolant temp and causes spilling of coolant before the 3 way valve can send coolant to the radiator.
This is my guess anyway.
Blocking the radiator will cause higher engine coolant temp and maintain the 3way valve at a position where some coolant is flowing to the radiator.
OR conversely a faster acting 3way valve may be used which I believe will be harder to source and fit.

This is my understanding any way.
So when this problem is happening, in winters, can you try by blocking off air flow to radiator partially.
Experts please feel free to counter this theory.
Yes, appreciate your view and is totally correct understanding. It's been already tried. Representative of Swaraj blocked 100% airflow to the radiator and the temperature at the bottom of the radiator improved by not a significant margin, but, the engine still did not heat up to the optimum level. This was tried for 30-45 minutes. Inspite of this, head of R&D is not ready to accept this. According to yours and ours understanding it's the thermostat design that is faulty, nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shergill View Post
The cooling circuit of a tractor is very simple and unless there is some major crack in the Engine block water jacket or a faulty water body or a punctured radiator ..there is nothing serious in the cooling circuit which could invite design blames .



Swaraj has been an Industry leader and making best of the tractors indeginously. It's tractors are well accepted in the market and command high resale value. This is due to perfection in design and manufacturing and relatively good aftersale service department.



Usually, farmers opt to remove the thermostat valve from the cooling circuit due to extremely hot weather conditions of India and even replace the coolant with plain water, which go quite well with all tractors. The alternator is water proof and has no problem bearing water splashes during washing and paddy field jobs ..almost submerging into slush at times.



One of the major problems with over flowing of radiator cap or coolant bottle is due to a leaking head gasket, which itself could be the consequence of a faulty thermostat valve. Do check for a boil in the Radiator or keep the coolant level little lower than the normal. But as the pictures reveal ..there could be workmanship troubles with the local Dealer's workshop.



I don't find any problem with the design fault in the placement of Coolant water bottle over the Alternator as such.
I think you are not aware there is no head gasket in today's tractor's. I am aware of what Swaraj has manufactured for so many years. And need not be made aware again as I have used their tractors for 21 years. I am not denying. This tractor has a engine design copied from Mazda's tractors. But, they did not use any brain while copying. Mazda's engine has an electrical fan which is scheduled to run only when needed. And, Swaraj has a mechanical fan which will run all the time and hence, the optimum temperature can never be attained.

NEW UPDATE
Another senior guy just entered the picture, assuring we are working on it. Same standard dialogue. We made it clear to them that it's been 2+ years now with no solution to the same. I made it very clear the thread opened up on Team-BHP only after losing my patience as it's my hard earned money. So I asked him about the recall policy, if they have any? Answer sir my humble request that please don't go till that extent.
I want to thank Team-BHP and it's members for tweeting the thread to Mr. Anand Mahindra.
So the next step is obvious going legal. Can forum members help me on farmer bodies or tractor associations that can also be approached or any other viral method as Mr. Anand Mahindra is least bothered to even reply to the tweet? I think writing to SIAM and transport ministry should also be taken up now.

Last edited by shravan2k2 : 19th May 2017 at 12:19.
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