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Old 6th July 2017, 22:41   #1
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Default 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

Dear Bhpians,

I am planning for a new 37 seater bus, i am unable to decide if i should go for a AL or Eicher. As far as i know there are only few new vehicles on road with BS4.

Today i got to know that AL is providing their chassis with EGR whereas Eicher has adopted SCR.

I have seen Eicher 20.15 bus with AC Compressor being driven by the main engine, the initial pick up is very poor and there is lot of vibration.

Siddaganga in bangalore has recently got 2 AL Bs4, i am not sure if AC is driven by main engine or slave.

Valuable inputs required please.
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Old 7th July 2017, 12:55   #2
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

While the commercial vehicle experts reply, here's a thread you could go through - link (Looking to buy a Minibus: EDIT- AL Stag bought. Pics on Pg. 8 & 9).
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Old 7th July 2017, 13:39   #3
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
While the commercial vehicle experts reply, here's a thread you could go through - link (Looking to buy a Minibus: EDIT- AL Stag bought. Pics on Pg. 8 & 9).
The thread does discuss on ac bus, but not with respect to my requirement of 37 seats catogery. It is limited to under 30 seats.
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Old 7th July 2017, 13:53   #4
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

What kind of usage are you looking at? If you specify the intended usage, then members can suggest options according to the requirements.

One option that came to my mind is this offering from Bharat Benz. It is getting quite popular in Mumbai. However I don't know whether it will be useful for you, as you haven't mentioned the intended purpose.

Last edited by AkMar : 7th July 2017 at 13:56. Reason: Typo
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Old 7th July 2017, 14:59   #5
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

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Originally Posted by AkMar View Post
What kind of usage are you looking at? If you specify the intended usage, then members can suggest options according to the requirements.

One option that came to my mind is this offering from Bharat Benz. It is getting quite popular in Mumbai. However I don't know whether it will be useful for you, as you haven't mentioned the intended purpose.
AkMarr , thanks for your response, I am looking at tourist purpose, it will have a 2x2 layout seating arrangement. As for as i know Eicher 20.15 or Viking 222 chassis should do the job, with WB >5600
If you are aware of Bharat Benz model. Pls do let me know.
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Old 7th July 2017, 15:38   #6
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

@prash315
I would suggest that you go in for a Bharat Benz or wait for some time. All other buses have shifted to BSIV very recently, and many are facing problems. You can also consider the Tata Starbus ultra. No of seats is less 24 pushback or 36 Fixed back, but engine doesn't sound stressed with the compressor load.
I would also suggest that you stick to a most powerfull main engine driven Ac. As of today auxilliary engines are not regulated, but ARAI wanted them to meet the norms of both Automotive BS IV and stationary tier 3 norms.

Rahul
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Old 7th July 2017, 16:09   #7
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
@prash315You can also consider the Tata Starbus ultra. No of seats is less 24 pushback or 36 Fixed back, but engine doesn't sound stressed with the compressor load.
We've recently procured 35 Tata Ultra buses BS-IV (Non-AC) with Harita Magnum Push-back seats. A 32 seater bus occupies 22 push-back seats and 40 seater bus occupies 28 push-back seats.

We haven't faced any major issues with them so far. AC buses too wouldn't have major issues too i guess. Else you can pickup a chassis and build an AC bus from reputed body builders like ACGL, Sutlej etc. The costing would be a marginal cheaper.

Cheers,
Amey
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Old 7th July 2017, 20:09   #8
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

Both buses are equally good. But since the bus is required in Bangalore better to go for AL. Keep away from Tata, My company had bad experiences with Tata buses.
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Old 7th July 2017, 23:21   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amey Kulkarni View Post
We've recently procured 35 Tata Ultra buses BS-IV (Non-AC) with Harita Magnum Push-back seats. A 32 seater bus occupies 22 push-back seats and 40 seater bus occupies 28 push-back seats.

We haven't faced any major issues with them so far. AC buses too wouldn't have major issues too i guess. Else you can pickup a chassis and build an AC bus from reputed body builders like ACGL, Sutlej etc. The costing would be a marginal cheaper.

Cheers,
Amey
My requirement is good with a bigger chassis, ultra wheel base is 4200 or 4800...i require 5600+

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
@prash315
I would suggest that you go in for a Bharat Benz or wait for some time. All other buses have shifted to BSIV very recently, and many are facing problems. You can also consider the Tata Starbus ultra. No of seats is less 24 pushback or 36 Fixed back, but engine doesn't sound stressed with the compressor load.
I would also suggest that you stick to a most powerfull main engine driven Ac. As of today auxilliary engines are not regulated, but ARAI wanted them to meet the norms of both Automotive BS IV and stationary tier 3 norms.

Rahul
Bharat Benz is offering 12 M chassis, which can accommodate 45 seats and as of now it is yet to get cleared by ARAI

Quote:
Originally Posted by eko View Post
Both buses are equally good. But since the bus is required in Bangalore better to go for AL. Keep away from Tata, My company had bad experiences with Tata buses.
Thanks eko for your feedback, I got a chance to see couple of chassis in SM Prakash today..looks like AL is the best bet.



Note from Support:Please do not post back to back messages on the same thread. Use the edit option to modify your post within 30 minutes. Thanks

Last edited by Eddy : 8th July 2017 at 00:20. Reason: Note Inline
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Old 8th July 2017, 05:52   #10
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prash315 View Post
Dear Bhpians,

I am planning for a new 37 seater bus, i am unable to decide if i should go for a AL or Eicher. As far as i know there are only few new vehicles on road with BS4.
Ashok Leyland is the market leader by far in this segment. Look no further than the Ashok Leyland 222" chassis. It has been available in BS4 for quite a few months now

Ashok Leyland 222" does not have an engine run AC option

The Ashok Leyland 222" is the largest selling bus chassis for Ashok Leyland. You an easily accommodate 37 seats in 9 rows with calf support push back facility.

Ashok Leyland has newly started selling a fully built version but Prakash Body Builders and Veera in Bangalore have been building 222" bus bodies for a long time now and are amongst the best body-builders in the country

The best one to go for would be the Ashok Leyland 12M chassis with retarder, air-suspension and common-rail engine. This bus comes with 225Hp engine with AC running off the engine. The mileage on long distance runs is claimed to be as high as 6kmpl. This is a Volvo/Scania beater, just check for Infant Jesus Travels that runs between Kanyakumari and Chennai.

The 222" chassis should cost 16 lakhs with options of 1.5 lakhs for the retarder (it improves brake liner life since all busses in India still come with drum brakes ), 2 lakhs for the air-suspension. The bus body from Prakash/Veera should cost 10 lakhs, 2.5 lakhs for the seats from Harita, 5-6 lakhs for the AC with slave engine, in all 30-40 lakhs depending on how you want it specified.

There are two schools of thought on whether a slave engine is better for the AC or it is better to run the AC off the main engine. With the AC running off the main engine, there is power loss and you have to keep the main engine running during breaks. With a slave engine which runs at a constant rpm the AC does not have to deal with rpm fluctuations if it were to run off the main engine. The slave engine will be very small, 1500 cc maybe and will not impact fuel efficiency too much, compared to an AC running off the main engine.

If budget is a problem, then check out OLX. There are many operators who have ventured on this route and have failed too quickly, you will be able to get a bus that has run less than 1 lakh kilometers and is in its warranty period for around 25 lakhs. Shriram Auto Finance has loan recovered busses with them all the time which they would be more than happy to finance to you

GTO has pointed you in the right direction. Our Teambhpian Raj_5004 has 4-5 busses running. Search for the thread "An AC bus this time". You should get all the information you want

Last edited by TheARUN : 8th July 2017 at 06:00. Reason: Addition
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Old 9th July 2017, 01:05   #11
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prash315 View Post
Dear Bhpians,

I am planning for a new 37 seater bus, i am unable to decide if i should go for a AL or Eicher. As far as i know there are only few new vehicles on road with BS4.

Today i got to know that AL is providing their chassis with EGR whereas Eicher has adopted SCR.

I have seen Eicher 20.15 bus with AC Compressor being driven by the main engine, the initial pick up is very poor and there is lot of vibration.

Siddaganga in bangalore has recently got 2 AL Bs4, i am not sure if AC is driven by main engine or slave.

Valuable inputs required please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prash315 View Post
AkMarr , thanks for your response, I am looking at tourist purpose, it will have a 2x2 layout seating arrangement. As for as i know Eicher 20.15 or Viking 222 chassis should do the job, with WB >5600
If you are aware of Bharat Benz model. Pls do let me know.

If its for tourist application, normally a Viking can accommodate upto 40 seats in 2x2 config. Wrt this segment, people don't prefer calf support since most of the travel will be during day time and hence if you are specific about 36 seats, you will either end up with highly spacious 11m tourist bus or a very luxurious semi sleeper tourist bus.
Ideally when Customers ask a 36 seater tourist bus all your competitors may provide say Lynx Strong, Ultra or Bharat Benz 917 with a lower fare. You may need to quote a higher fare for a larger bus. Hope you also will be aware of higher permit and toll charges for large buses. So my suggestion is look beyond 36 seats in case you are looking for 11m bus or look out for smaller 9m buses if its 36 seats.

Still if you prefer a larger bus, you can rely on Viking 222". Eicher is no way in comparison even in Non Ac application and if its AC in 11m segment, its Viking for sure.

Viking BS IV is available in market since late 2010. Currently both EGR and SCR models are available and as per company, SCR is recommended for AC application.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
Ashok Leyland is the market leader by far in this segment. Look no further than the Ashok Leyland 222" chassis. It has been available in BS4 for quite a few months now
Hi Arun, extremely sorry to see that most of the points you shared aren't right. Hope you don't get offended if I correct you. I am also sharing this for the benefit of all.

Viking 222" BS IV diesel is available since Oct 2010.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post

Ashok Leyland 222" does not have an engine run AC option
Viking 222" does have engine driven AC and in fact its the only 11m model to have engine driven AC now.
Ashok Leyland is an early bird to offer AC models in all its heavy buses. In BS II (165hp rotary) BS III (180 rotary, 180il) were with engine driven AC option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
The best one to go for would be the Ashok Leyland 12M chassis with retarder, air-suspension and common-rail engine. This bus comes with 225Hp engine with AC running off the engine. The mileage on long distance runs is claimed to be as high as 6kmpl. This is a Volvo/Scania beater, just check for Infant Jesus Travels that runs between Kanyakumari and Chennai.
12m CRS is not the suggested product for tourist application, as its the most expensive chassis currently available (retailing over 23lks). Until otherwise the tourist application demands long distance operation of over 1000 kms, it may not be a viable option. Ideally the higher chassis cost should fetch higher revenue and if not its business loss to owner. In case of 12m CRS when the need is not clear, better stay with Viking.

Also 12m CRS does't give fuel performance in the level of 6 kmpl with AC. One big thing is, this definitely matches premium coaches in turn around time. Importantly Infant Jesus is not a right Customer to either refer or to benchmark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
There are two schools of thought on whether a slave engine is better for the AC or it is better to run the AC off the main engine. With the AC running off the main engine, there is power loss and you have to keep the main engine running during breaks. With a slave engine which runs at a constant rpm the AC does not have to deal with rpm fluctuations if it were to run off the main engine. The slave engine will be very small, 1500 cc maybe and will not impact fuel efficiency too much, compared to an AC running off the main engine.
Without doubt main engine driven AC is the suggested and least maintenance option. Slave engine driven AC, is a scenario which is more than decade old, when the chassis were under powered. Service, maintenance everything is simple when the AC is engine driven. In fact the cost of running AC is much cheaper with engine driven.
And most importantly your passengers will never appreciate a huge constant roar beneath your foot.

The one used by Raj was early BS III model which was 165hp electronic rotary FIP engine. That was short lived and soon it was replaced by inline models. Though the earlier ones didn't have much issues, for competitive advantage Ashok Leyland offered il engines across platforms.

Last edited by Ashley2 : 9th July 2017 at 01:17.
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Old 9th July 2017, 19:22   #12
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

Which one of these options do you prefer
1. Buy a chassis from the manufacturer and have the body built outside.
2. Buy the bus as a whole from the manufacturer.
3. Anything would be fine till it is bang for the buck.
Your response is expected as it would help me and others to suggest you a more suitable model.

With Regards,
Shreyas Kumar Agarwal

Last edited by Shreyas Agarwal : 9th July 2017 at 19:24.
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Old 9th July 2017, 23:49   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyas Agarwal View Post
Which one of these options do you prefer
1. Buy a chassis from the manufacturer and have the body built outside.
2. Buy the bus as a whole from the manufacturer.
3. Anything would be fine till it is bang for the buck.
Your response is expected as it would help me and others to suggest you a more suitable model.

With Regards,
Shreyas Kumar Agarwal
Thanks Shreyas for interest in solving my problem,
With the experience i have, only the first option is possible, buy a chassis and have a body built by sutlej. my only problem is choosing between chassis manufacturers. AL or Eicher.
AL BS4 is new among private operators, Eicher no one wants to try it, in-spite of this i know 3 buses built on eicher and its not impressive. The tourist segment is very demanding , you cannot afford to have breakdown with the guests. the reason for mentioning this is, now these vehicles are to be diagnosed with the help of laptops, local mechanics can only help in mechanical stuff like changing clutch , break liner, oil leakage etc, with electronics in the bus it is going to be difficult. Also on the other hand we pay tax to the extent of rs.1500 per day here in karnataka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley2 View Post
If its for tourist application, normally a Viking can accommodate upto 40 seats in 2x2 config. Wrt this segment, people don't prefer calf support since most of the travel will be during day time and hence if you are specific about 36 seats, you will either end up with highly spacious 11m tourist bus or a very luxurious semi sleeper tourist bus.
Thanks a lot Ashley2, you have almost nailed it, i am pretty sure i will go ahead with 222, if only you can through more light on few finer aspects,
1. 222 is available in iEGR, that is what sales rep say, AC driven by main engine, what is preferred iEGR or SCR
2. how about initial pick up, same as BS3 FIL model or is it comparatively less due to BS4 upgrade.
3. Speed limited to 80kms, is there any way we can change it.
4.Noticed that Dash board is same is BS3 , with more electronics i thought there be more information in the panel.

Also heard from TVS mechanics that some latest buses are coming for change in electrical wiring, not sure about it, any feedback on this.

we cater to inbound tourists, i have attached photo of one my possession, just to let you know what i am looking for,

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
Ashok Leyland is the market leader by far in this segment. Look no further than the Ashok Leyland 222" chassis. It has been available in BS4 for quite a few months now

Ashok Leyland 222" does not have an engine run AC option

The Ashok Leyland 222" is the largest selling bus chassis for Ashok Leyland. You an easily accommodate 37 seats in 9 rows with calf support push back facility.

Ashok Leyland has newly started selling a fully built version but Prakash Body Builders and Veera in Bangalore have been building 222" bus bodies for a long time now and are amongst the best body-builders in the country

The best one to go for would be the Ashok Leyland 12M chassis with retarder, air-suspension and common-rail engine. This bus comes with 225Hp engine with AC running off the engine. The mileage on long distance runs is claimed to be as high as 6kmpl. This is a Volvo/Scania beater, just check for Infant Jesus Travels that runs between Kanyakumari and Chennai.

The 222" chassis should cost 16 lakhs with options of 1.5 lakhs for the retarder (it improves brake liner life since all busses in India still come with drum brakes ), 2 lakhs for the air-suspension. The bus body from Prakash/Veera should cost 10 lakhs, 2.5 lakhs for the seats from Harita, 5-6 lakhs for the AC with slave engine, in all 30-40 lakhs depending on how you want it specified.

There are two schools of thought on whether a slave engine is better for the AC or it is better to run the AC off the main engine. With the AC running off the main engine, there is power loss and you have to keep the main engine running during breaks. With a slave engine which runs at a constant rpm the AC does not have to deal with rpm fluctuations if it were to run off the main engine. The slave engine will be very small, 1500 cc maybe and will not impact fuel efficiency too much, compared to an AC running off the main engine.

If budget is a problem, then check out OLX. There are many operators who have ventured on this route and have failed too quickly, you will be able to get a bus that has run less than 1 lakh kilometers and is in its warranty period for around 25 lakhs. Shriram Auto Finance has loan recovered busses with them all the time which they would be more than happy to finance to you

GTO has pointed you in the right direction. Our Teambhpian Raj_5004 has 4-5 busses running. Search for the thread "An AC bus this time". You should get all the information you want
Thanks for your inputs TheArun, i was only contemplating on Eicher or AL, since Eicher has come up with a new engine , also AL is not offering any fullbuilt vehicle as of now, though they showcased it many times.
12 M chassis is not meant for my application since i looking at 36 to 39 seats max. on the other hand there are no buses in the second sales market with the configuration i am looking at.

The prices have sky rocketed now, the chassis with air suspension costs 22 lakhs.
Attached Thumbnails
37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?-20160729_163917.jpg  


Last edited by Samurai : 10th July 2017 at 00:32. Reason: back-to-back post. Use multi-quote feature.
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Old 10th July 2017, 17:30   #14
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Default Re: 37-seater Bus : Ashok Leyland or Eicher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prash315 View Post
Thanks a lot Ashley2, you have almost nailed it, i am pretty sure i will go ahead with 222, if only you can through more light on few finer aspects,
1. 222 is available in iEGR, that is what sales rep say, AC driven by main engine, what is preferred iEGR or SCR
2. how about initial pick up, same as BS3 FIL model or is it comparatively less due to BS4 upgrade.
3. Speed limited to 80kms, is there any way we can change it.
4.Noticed that Dash board is same is BS3 , with more electronics i thought there be more information in the panel.

Also heard from TVS mechanics that some latest buses are coming for change in electrical wiring, not sure about it, any feedback on this.

we cater to inbound tourists, i have attached photo of one my possession, just to let you know what i am looking for,...
1. Company suggests SCR for AC application.
2.The BS III AC was with 180hp and now BS IV is with 165hp. So there may be slight difference in pickup. But considering the tourist application I don't think it will be a serious issue in turn around time.
3. You can't/should not change speed limit. They are password protected and can be released only at service centre.
4. Nothing difference in dash panel and more differences are beneath it. The recent one's comes with updated wiring harnesses as told by mechanics. They are with small upgrades over the initial ones.

I wonder why do you have a wheel base door? This will reduce 2 seats ideally. Instead you can use the FOH door alone. Also you have good body builders in Bengaluru and why should you go all the way to Sutlej. SMK/Veera may have a better resale value here as well.
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Old 10th July 2017, 23:55   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley2 View Post
1. Company suggests SCR for AC application.
2.The BS III AC was with 180hp and now BS IV is with 165hp. So there may be slight difference in pickup. But considering the tourist application I don't think it will be a serious issue in turn around time.
3. You can't/should not change speed limit. They are password protected and can be released only at service centre.
The need for change in speed limit is based on request from customers, who don,t have patience also there is usually a comparison made to volvo, quoting their short travel time

Quote:
4. Nothing difference in dash panel and more differences are beneath it. The recent one's comes with updated wiring harnesses as told by mechanics. They are with small upgrades over the initial ones.

I wonder why do you have a wheel base door? This will reduce 2 seats ideally. Instead you can use the FOH door alone. Also you have good body builders in Bengaluru and why should you go all the way to Sutlej. SMK/Veera may have a better resale value here as well.
we are mostly engaged in inbound tourist tour operations, they prefer center door , when compared to front door, it is little cumbersome to getin and getout. coming to body builders, sutlej has been approved by ARAI, secondly to my knowledge , they have better engineering than prakash and veera, veera body will start with lots of rattling sound with in the first 18 months, sutlej is preferred even though prakash commands a better resale value.

Last edited by bblost : 11th July 2017 at 00:02.
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