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Old 13th October 2017, 02:30   #31
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
I guess the acquisition of 16 Boeing P-8 Poseidon aircraft and 22 General Atomics Guardian Naval drone fills in the void left behind by lack of submarines. While the drone offers loitering capability, Poseidon can fire wing mounted anti-submarine torpedoes.

Attachment 1685090

Attachment 1685091

Seems good enough for Navy base defence against enemy submarines. However, I'm not sure if these birds can be used in an offensive role (because they are vulnerable to enemy fighter aircraft)
One of the best recent decisions in Indian defence procurement history has been to go in wholeheartedly into the Poseidon programme. It's part of increasingly flourishing global community of sub hunters as navies across the world once again realise the importance of ASW capability and being able to hunt subs from up on high. And it's a platform that will only get better with time what with users now from the USN, IN and soon RN to name a few, I imagine Indian Naval aviators will get ample opportunity for knowledge share that will only increase our competence in this regard.

Excellent piece that'll give you an idea of just how versatile this platform is.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...e-p-8-poseidon

To answer your question, the USN at least plans on having the Poseidon capable of packing a punch of its own. I for one would be interested to see if the IN pays attention to how the USN integrates their Poseidon's into their carrier battle groups. It might be an intriguing force multiplier for India.
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Old 13th October 2017, 09:59   #32
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Mr V.Nayayan, I have been a silent follower of your threads right from the time I started following your XC60 ownership thread. I just had to comment on this gem of a thread through. I for one, had this very wrong notion that in the age of the ICBM and stealth bombers, these floating behemoths of the sea were becoming irrelevant in advanced warfare. But some of the things you've brought out, such as the nugget below have made me realise how naive my thinking in this area is!

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The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

A warship is a piece of India that can move our borders to the Red Sea or the South China Sea or the coast of Makran.
It is such a painstakingly crafted thread and your ability to deliver so much information in such a consumable form is fantastic. This is what makes team bhp fantastic - a place where you can get quality information about warships as well as bicycles!

Given the fact that we are looking at a world without fossil fuel in the next few decades, is it your opinion that we will soon move to 100% nuclear power in the seas? Or are there other technologies that are looking promising? Conventional alternative energy options (electric/solar/wind/hybrid) seem impractical for these requirements.
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Old 13th October 2017, 14:56   #33
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

What can I say! words fail me. As a military enthusiast, I would say this is one of the, if not THE best thread to date on this forum. I doff my hat to you Sir!
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Old 13th October 2017, 22:42   #34
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
I guess the acquisition of 16 Boeing P-8 Poseidon aircraft and 22 General Atomics Guardian Naval drone fills in the void left behind by lack of submarines. While the drone offers loitering capability, Poseidon can fire wing mounted anti-submarine torpedoes.
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Originally Posted by ads11 View Post
One of the best recent decisions in Indian defence procurement history has been to go in wholeheartedly into the Poseidon programme. It's part of increasingly flourishing global community of sub hunters as navies across the world once again realise the importance of ASW capability and being able to hunt subs from up on high. And it's a platform that will only get better with time what with users now from the USN, IN and soon RN to name a few
Yes the Poseidon is one of the best investments we've made. An airborne ASW hunter is what the submarine fears most mainly because often times the submarine may not know it is being stalked passively. And the Poseidons are multi-purpose - recce, surveillance, anti-ship and anti-sub.
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Seems good enough for Navy base defence against enemy submarines. However, I'm not sure if these birds can be used in an offensive role (because they are vulnerable to enemy fighter aircraft)
Up to a point yes. In 1971 we lost a Breguet Alize to the Pakistani AF in the Arabian Sea. To the Chinese - well their carrier needs to get here first.. A drone like a chopper is very hard for a fast jet fighter to shoot down. Given its small size & negligible infra red signature missiles could (and often do) fail to lock on and with guns a slow moving target near the surface is the most difficult to shoot. The Poseidons of course are for long range work to monitor or sanitize large swathes of the ocean.
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I just had to comment on this gem of a thread through. I for one, had this very wrong notion that in the age of the ICBM and stealth bombers, these floating behemoths of the sea were becoming irrelevant in advanced warfare.
Nice question. Given the way the press talks it is not surprising for people to assume this. The military is an extension of a country's foreign policy. Like a good guard dog we need the ability to growl, then to snarl with teeth bared, then to bark loudly, then to pounce but stop short of biting and finally to bite and bite hard. An ICBM is a one use only-cannot be recalled-cannot be undone kind of weapon. For all its glamour it is a inflexible single use asset. A few are a lot better than none but many is not a lot better than a few -so we need a few for the strategic troublemakers. But for the non-State actors we need weapons and tools with higher degrees of flexibility and multi-use. Stealth bombers are effective yes. But so far they have been used only against weak adversaries such as Iraq. It is very hard to predict what the result will be if used against a meaningful adversary like India, China or Russia. I suspect the results will be more mixed. Warships always carry guns all of which can be aimed and fired visually. When all else fails Eyeball Mark 1 still works.

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Given the fact that we are looking at a world without fossil fuel in the next few decades, is it your opinion that we will soon move to 100% nuclear power in the seas? Or are there other technologies that are looking promising? Conventional alternative energy options (electric/solar/wind/hybrid) seem impractical for these requirements.
Thought provoking question. In say 75 years a lot many more of the large vessels could be nuclear powered because of the endurance advantage it bestows. However the cost of a power plant makes it uneconomical for anything other than submarines and aircraft carriers and maybe combat support ships. The Americans did build a few nuclear powered cruiser sized vessels in the 1960s but did not go down that path as it restricted the number of hulls the budgets could support. The energy density that petroleum offers is so great that I don't see fossil fuels getting replaced in warships anytime soon. As warships have the operational requirement of high speed cruising for days on end the energy density of petroleum is the only viable alternative in the foreseeable future. Some very rough but directionally correct figures about energy consumption in propulsion at sea - a 40,000 tonne cargo ship could cruise at 14 to 15 knots at say 11,000 shp but a 4000 tonne frigate clipping at twice the speed at 30 knots will need 55,000 shp or more. So twice the speed needs 5 times the power for a ship 10 times smaller. Hence the value of energy density of the fuel source. However for large cargo ships wind and solar are being experimented with and could become a reality in 30 years or less.

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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
As a military enthusiast, I would say this is one of the, if not THE best thread to date on this forum. I doff my hat to you
Quote:
It is such a painstakingly crafted thread and your ability to deliver so much information in such a consumable form is fantastic. This is what makes team bhp fantastic - a place where you can get quality information about warships as well as bicycles!
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Originally Posted by Ithaca View Post
Sir, Another fantastic thread related to our Military by you.
Rated 5 stars as always.
Exhaustive, Informative and well penned. A treat to read for sure.
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Originally Posted by abhishek46 View Post
I salute your knowledge and your writing skills. It has been a pleasure to read through all your Naval threads, thanks to sheer amount of insight you share!
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Originally Posted by Gannu_1 View Post
A very insightful read.
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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Superbly written and explained. Many thanks for this answer, felt really good to read it.
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Originally Posted by abhii176 View Post
Another brilliant thread Narayan
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Originally Posted by theMAG View Post
Evocative thread! I'm generally agnostic to most geo-political commentary, but your narrative gave me the goosebumps! It is heartening to read that the Indian Navy has been silently yet surely building its capablities of late.
Gentlemen, thank you for reading the article and complimenting it. It makes the effort and time worth it.

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Can I request you share a few words, whenever possible, on the Tejas & it's future prospects?
Abhiskek46, as you have asked so sweetly me thinks this should be the next thread. It usually takes me a month or two to stitch together a thread. So say mid-December.
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Old 14th October 2017, 12:01   #35
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
When all else fails Eyeball Mark 1 still works.
You said it. You have a rich knowledge of history so you probably know about how the british commandos raided the dry dock at St. Nazaire to keep the Tirpitz away from the convoys in the Atlantic. I think it's one of the most daring naval wartime feats every undertaken, and could have come straight out of a Hollywood script. Jeremy Clarkson did a very nice documentary about it (among a few other military topics) that is a very enjoyable watch, it's available on youtube.
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Old 14th October 2017, 17:00   #36
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
2) How good are surface ships like destroyers, frigates and corvettes against submarines? Won't a submarine spot surface vessels first and fire?
I am no expert but let me offer my two paisa worth. Neither a ship nor a submarine are in a perfect condition to sink the other though the advantage of detection lies with the submarine in most conditions. Detection has to be followed by bearing ie which direction, bearing with range, range with direction of movement & speed and finally a confirmed identification. All easier said than done. So it is not all advantage submarine. The ship is likely to be operating in a pair or a trio and often armed with one or two helicopters each. So the surface attackers are not one but say two or three ships and two or three ASW choppers. Now it is like a pack of lions in the African safari hunting a gazelle from different directions! If a submarine detects the noise of a ship far away its biggest challenge is identification and establishing bearing and range passively ie without switching on its sonars.

In the two instances since WW2 where a sub sank a ship, the Indian Khukri and the Argentinean General Belgrano, both were done at relatively short ranges. In both cases even though the sub was only a few thousand metres away the ships sonar could not pick it up due to the unpredictable way sound transmits in water. So net net a submarine can hide from a ship but a ship cannot hide from a submarine. While a sub can hear the ship it does not know if the ships ASW helicopter is listening for the sub! On the other hand a ships endurance and speed cannot be matched by a diesel-electric submarine. A ship especially a large one can survive a single torpedo hit. But a sub cannot risk even a near explosion as it only needs a hairline crack in the pressure hull to cause it to implode in seconds or minutes. So it is 6 of one and half a dozen of another.
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Old 15th October 2017, 09:14   #37
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We are going off topic but:
"that the British deliberately adopted policies that caused as many as 29 million Indians to starve to death in the late 19th century"
This is probably a very conservative number, real number is probably much higher.
Foxbat, on this point and related immense atrocities the British committed including 190 years of pillage you and I are joined at the hip. You may have read Shashi Tharoor's book 'An Era of Darkness'. If not it is a must read for folks like us. I have no love lost for the British of yesterday at all. As for the British of today, after having employed many and still running businesses in the UK, they could in my opinion, in 25 years, become just another small European nation like Portugal or Finland. Brexit + Catalonia could equal Scotexit!

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We agree on many things but I guess on this aspect we strongly differ. The St.George's cross represents an empire which was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of Indians( Bengal famine of 1943 is the one of the most recent examples
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Furthermore, the Indian Naval ensign has had a St George's cross on it for nigh on a century almost, with minor variations through the ages, the major one being the inclusion of the Indian flag instead of the Union Jack. Personally I find the inclusion of the Ashok Chakra at the very centre of the cross is a most elegant solution, that ties in the long storied history and keeps at the very core a symbol even more deeply historically embedded in the Indian psyche.
The flags and uniforms and ranks and traditions of the armed forces are best left to them to decide. The armed forces are an independent society (and a great one at that) within the wider Indian society. The reason they are considered an asset of the last resort is because the civilian Govt needs them to be functional and effective when all else has broken down and stay apolitical at all times. So it is best to leave them insulated from political interference and views. Trying to look different for the sake of it does not change anything.

The Navy is proud about having fought under this flag in WW2 and before that in WW1. The need for insulation from our political jingoism is highlighted best by what happened to the officers of the INA (Indian National Army) in 1947 when Nehru insisted they be re-appointed back into the Army. Carriappa point blank refused. He said, and rightly so, that once you have taken an oath to serve the Army, follow the flag and obey the civilian Govt you cannot break it (regardless of the overwhelming situation of even the country's independence) and then expect to be taken back. Nehru, a proud man, baulked at this push back. Carriappa asked him if he (Nehru) would like him (Carriappa) to not follow Nehru's orders (as a PM) just because Carriappa personally had a different political view on a major subject. Nehru understood the need here to keep political views and symbols out of the armed forces. Sardar Patel advised him likewise. PS: I am a greater admirer of Netaji than of Nehru. Another example from a different time. In 1977 when the Congress and Indira Gandhi were toppled we had a non-Congress Govt for the first time. The then PM, Morarji Desai, wanted to bring some of his favourites into the armed forces - no rum, ceremonial swords should be changed from straight to curved (Shivaji style) and some other petty tinkering. Fortunately better sense prevailed and the IAS explained to him that there are bigger issues to solve for.

The armed forces are meant to serve the civilian Govt and not change tone, views, flags, names et al when the Govt changes. Our transition from the despised British rule to democracy was a relatively smooth transition administratively speaking and literally the same Govt structure and people were left unchanged and at least in 1947 only the top leaders changed. On 14.8.47 they served a Govt with Mountbatten as head and on 16.8.47 they served the same Govt with C.Rajagopalachari as head. Our political leadership changed the Govt structure did not. To leave the armed forces untouched from politics, political symbols, nationalistic names was a conscious policy. Our armed forces have enough national pride and things to be proud of. They don't need to change flags to prove anything to anyone. Sorry for this long post. Just my view. We can celebrate our differences and still enjoy our aircraft scale models. :-)

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
I guess the acquisition of 16 Boeing P-8 Poseidon aircraft and 22 General Atomics Guardian Naval drone fills in the void left behind by lack of submarines. While the drone offers loitering capability, Poseidon can fire wing mounted anti-submarine torpedoes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ads11 View Post
One of the best recent decisions in Indian defence procurement history has been to go in wholeheartedly into the Poseidon programme.
The USN in my opinion have been world leaders in ASW technology most especially ASW from the air. Even a slightly sanitized version of the P-8 is so far ahead of anything else that it gives us a very strong asset. They have over 75 years followed a policy of gradual step by step improvements. The P-8's predecessor the famous P-3 Orion was in production from 1961 to 1990 and will be flying into the 2020s. The Orion's predecessor the Neptune was in service from 1945 to c.1975! We can expect upgrades to the P-8 being with us for 30 to 40 years.
PS: I am no votary to American foreign policy by conquest and pillage. I am only talking here in aviation-naval terms.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 15th October 2017 at 09:43.
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Old 16th October 2017, 13:04   #38
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

Anti-Submarine Stealth Corvette INS Kiltan Joins Naval Fleet
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/61097866.cms

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The ship hosts a predominantly indigenous cutting-edge weapons and sensors suite which includes heavyweight torpedoes, ASW rockets, 76 mm caliber Medium Range gun and two multi-barrel 30 mm guns as close-in-weapon system (CIWS) with dedicated fire control systems, missile decoy rockets (Chaff), advanced ESM (Electronic Support Measure) system, most advanced bow mounted sonar and air surveillance radar Revathi.

It is India's first major warship to have a superstructure of carbon fibre composite material resulting in improved stealth features, lower top weight and maintenance costs.
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Old 18th October 2017, 02:30   #39
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

This is an amazing amount of information on the Indian Navy. More than my Ex Navy dad could have provided me Thank you for taking time out for compiling it in this beautiful post.

There a certain allure and nostalgia associated with living in Navy environment, even as family members. I miss those days.

I have been to Navy ships a couple of times. Man, they do live tough lives. Imagine performing anything when the ground beneath you isn't steady Add to it, being away from family when they are on sailing for months.

The time they spend on keeping their uniforms spic and span. Their well kept bases. Everything looks neat and tidy. Just where it should be.
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Old 20th October 2017, 19:31   #40
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

What a blockbuster of a thread indeed!!!
Studded with abundance of information, this is easily the one stop destination for all info that is available on open source about the Navy.
Rated the well deserved five stars.

A few inputs from my end: -
1. INS Vikrant is well into its paces of construction and in few years time, will start its sea trials. Though an aircraft carrier is the element of show stopping and pomp, I feel that the credibility of a force is more anchored on a formidable submarine fleet (Unless you have an extravagant carrier battle group like the US).
This is because a carrier ensures "Sea Control" while a submarine ensures "Sea Denial". And as on date, for all navies in the world except the US, Sea Denial is more viable and economical. Sustaining a full fledged Carrier Battle Group entails humongous amount of resources including logistics, planning and warships. It also has an attack nuclear submarine on its front flank to thwart any untoward attack towards a carrier.

A carrier needs to be well protected since it is a Pivot point in any strategy and it certainly is the most valued asset in the Fleet. A submarine on the other hand enjoys tremendous freedom due to its stealth and discreet features, despite its slow speeds.

2. INS Kamorta class of ships, though commissioned as Corvettes, is more than just that. It may soon have the capability of missiles and it will transform from just an ASW platform to something short of a frigate.
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Old 20th October 2017, 21:29   #41
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Default Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet

What an amazingly informative thread, marked it 5 star.

Thank you V.Narayan for posting this thread
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