Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Commercial Vehicles


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 9th February 2007, 15:46   #31
Senior - BHPian
 
esteem_lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Madras/Py
Posts: 7,554
Thanked: 445 Times
Default

I think we are going off topic here.

Like someone said here before, when the old tech ALL & TATA buses can take the rough rides, why cant a super engineered volvo do the same. i love the VOLVO, but if their quality is lagging, then it has to be addressed.

When we were driving ambys & padminis, maruti came in with a technology that was generations ahead. The good old 800 can take a lot of hammering without ever getting into major repairs & the maintenance cost was much lower than the old gen vehicles. what prevents VOLVO from designing a more sturdier body with more safety features ?
esteem_lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2007, 15:52   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: pune
Posts: 2,088
Thanked: 48 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
Next, if the state should only be bothered about providing for and looking after the poor (??), then why do the other members of society need to pay taxes to the government?
This stems from "pseudo"-socialist thinking that, those, who are poor, are always exploited and those, who are rich, are the exploiters. It doesn't matter if someone is rich because he is doing good ethical business. If I pay 35% of my honest earnings as TAX, I shouldn't expect anything back, because rest of the India is poor and hungry.

This thinking was fine probably 60 years back, when India was an under-developed nation, but carrying on the same logic forever just doesn't serve the purpose.

Disclaimer: I am far from being called Rich. So hopefully, my views won't be branded as biased and capitalist.

Disclaimer 2: Just realized that my post is completely Off Topic. So no more posts on this topic!
RX135 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2007, 19:35   #33
Senior - BHPian
 
spadival's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 1,770
Thanked: 15 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redcandle View Post
I agree that any bus/truck can NOT run as a "new vehicle" within days of going into operation. But havent the Indian companies like TATA and Ashok Leyland managed to build buses and trucks that keep going even after being battered to death? Their floors dont cave in....their dont flung open everyday.
Just to set the record straight, there were NO bus manufacturers in India before VOLVO came in. TATA and Ashok Leyland merely sold "truck" chassis to all and sundry OR built metal rattle-boxes on truck chassis and sold them as "StarBuses".

The end result is that the so called "Indian" buses were as "tough" and more importantly, as "comfortable" as the trucks they were based on !!
spadival is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2007, 19:54   #34
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Mpower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 10,432
Thanked: 1,682 Times
Default

Some of my thoughts on this great topic.
  • Private operator buys Volvos only because he's realised that public has taken fancy to them and he has to have it to get customers, not because he has a passion for auto technology like Bhpians
  • After paying an arm and a leg, he expects ultra-super reliability and therefore small rattles, leaks and holes really get to his nerves.
  • Whereas similar problems in a cheaper Tata or ALL vehicle is excused.
  • On top of the high cost of purchase, Volvos also have expensive parts and service costs which private operators are not used to paying, so they try to do some band aid fixes, delay services and generally vent frustration to press etc
Now coming to Volvo,
  • The bodies are built by Jaico, but the drawings and specifications are provided by Volvo and the buses are sold as a Volvo product after being inspected by them. So unlike Tata or ALL whose responsibility ends after selling the chassis, Volvo puts their name proudly on the buses and they have to stand by it.
  • These buses are primaly designed for super smooth roads of Europe and although its used in Latin America nothign compares to the pounding it takes on Indian roads. Volvo needs to study these problems and adress them quickly. Take a leaf out of Tata's book on how to make constant changes to a product to make it better.
As far as govenment intervention, yes we need to have it in mild dosage even if its a market economy.

Look at the state of Taxis in the city of Mumbai which is the financial capital of our great democracy...given a chance a private operator will not follow any safety or quality standards because most of them are uneducated and were riding bullock carts in their respective villages only a few years prior. He will probably put money where it matters like a fresh coat of paint or fresh upholstery, but may ignore the brakes or steering. By the time the public realises this...lives will be lost. If market economy works, then why do we have a body like FAA to ensure safe air travel ????

Of course, private companies can also get into customer satisfaction surveys like JD Power, Zagat etc which will help weed out the shoddy operators. But our society is not so mature and the intercity coach industry is too fragmented.

I for one am very pleased to hear that STCs are babying their Volvos. Its great to know that for once, a public enterprise is offering better service than private.

Last edited by Mpower : 10th February 2007 at 19:28.
Mpower is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2007, 11:31   #35
Senior - BHPian
 
rahul_intlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,577
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

OT:

Mpower,Awsome buddy. Great post.
rahul_intlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2007, 21:17   #36
Ram
Senior - BHPian
 
Ram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Singapore, Mumbai, Nagpur
Posts: 2,165
Thanked: 144 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadival View Post
Just to set the record straight, there were NO bus manufacturers in India before VOLVO came in. TATA and Ashok Leyland merely sold "truck" chassis to all and sundry OR built metal rattle-boxes on truck chassis and sold them as "StarBuses".

The end result is that the so called "Indian" buses were as "tough" and more importantly, as "comfortable" as the trucks they were based on !!
@spadival, May I take I take educated exception to your statement, there were NO bus manufacturers in India before VOLVO came in?

What about the immensely popular 1955 Ashok Leyland Comet, 1964 Ashok Leyland Tiger and the 1968 Leyland Titan double-decker with the PD3 chassis powered by the Ashok Leyland version of the O.680 engine and a five-speed heavy duty constant-mesh gearbox. The roar of the mighty Leyland O.680 engine was unforgettable!
Mumbai-Team BHPians, do pay a visit to the B.E.S.T museum at Anik depot. There are some classic artifacts to be seen.

Then the Ashok Leyland Viking, Cheetah, Panther, Stag, Lynx, ...

But let's rewind the tape a little...

I remember going to school in the early 1960s in a BEST Ashok Leyland Tiger-Cub bus.



Here are my childhood memories of this bus. It's been four decades but it just seems like yesterday. The Ashok Leyland Tiger Cub was characterized by having no radiator grille in the front. That's because the engine was under the floorboards in the centre of the bus. And the front wheels were way behind the driver. That caused the entire front of the bus to appear to yaw sideways when the driver was taking a turn. I have vivid memories of the sights and sounds and smells of this bus, traveling in it daily for years.
The semi-automatic transmission had a whine to it. Was music to my ears. It had no clutch pedal. The gear mechanism would emit a loud hiss when the driver gated the gear lever.
The front wheel had a chrome ring around the wheel nuts and there was a painted wooden strip below the edge of the skirting panel between the front and rear wheels.
The fuel-filler cap was behind the front left wheel arch.
The bus had only one entrance/exit in front ahead of the front wheels just like a Volvo B7R and there was a vertically mounted hemispherical lamp on the driver's cabin to illuminate the passenger footsteps, just like the blue hemispherical lamp in the Railway sleeper coaches. Another lamp was embedded in the front footstep.

And have we forgotten the Leyland Atlantean rear-engined double deckers in Bombay?



Ram
Ram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2007, 21:46   #37
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Mpower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 10,432
Thanked: 1,682 Times
Default

First off I must congratulate Ram on his excellent drawing skills. I wish I had a gift like that to put my imagination on paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadival View Post
Just to set the record straight, there were NO bus manufacturers in India before VOLVO came in. TATA and Ashok Leyland merely sold "truck" chassis to all and sundry OR built metal rattle-boxes on truck chassis and sold them as "StarBuses".

The end result is that the so called "Indian" buses were as "tough" and more importantly, as "comfortable" as the trucks they were based on !!
I have heard this many time from the press, but Frankly there is no clear definition of how a bus should be built. A bus is a bus...even in cars we have FWD, RWD, unibody, body on Frame, rear engine etc but they are all cars.

Take a look at the B7R chassis below. Its a C channel ladder frame with rear engine, nothing fancy about it.
Volvo buses are rear engine and that makes a big difference, but otherwise they share a lot of parts with trucks.



The bus chassis that TATA and ALL build is slightly different for buses and trucks. For example ALL used Hino engines for the buses only and a differnt Gearbox too.

Last edited by Mpower : 11th February 2007 at 21:53.
Mpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2007, 21:50   #38
Team-BHP Support
 
theMAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,034
Thanked: 1,470 Times
Default

Ram - amazing drawings!! I felt at peace with myself seeing those drawings. Reminded me of Malgudi Days and Swami & Friends by RK Narayan that I adored reading as an otherwise annoying kid

And that description makes me want to have been around when those buses were!
theMAG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2007, 01:26   #39
Senior - BHPian
 
rahul_intlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,577
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

I dont know if this is in response to the protests from the bus operators but found this on the volvo website[Cannot verify date of posting on Volvo website]:

Quote:
Volvo Bus was not only reaching its destination around 20% quicker, it was doing it with far less maintenance requirements than usual. Most importantly, the bus establishes new standards in comfort and safety which has caught the eye of the passengers.

WORD-OF-MOUTH
A interesting method lies in the pull created by passengers. Word-of-mouth is a key facilitator to a modern concept such as Volvo, and it has already caught on in the sectors where Volvo operates. Right now every Volvo bus is sold out at least a couple of days before the journey. Volvo is creating value for the passengers. A business trip of 1,000 km, takes normally 24 hours but now a Volvo in this sector takes just 17 hours. This means a saving of over 1 day per tour.
Source:Global - Volvo Buses : breakthrough in India
I think spadival is quoting this page:
Quote:
Up until the first Volvo bus came along with the true bus chassis, typical buses were all built on a truck chassis. It was only the body-type that determined the league in which one operated in. Competition as a result was more or less skin-deep.

Source:India - Volvo Buses : built on a true bus chassis
PS: Excellant drawings Ram.
rahul_intlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2007, 18:10   #40
Senior - BHPian
 
spadival's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 1,770
Thanked: 15 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Take a look at the B7R chassis below. Its a C channel ladder frame with rear engine, nothing fancy about it.
Volvo buses are rear engine and that makes a big difference, but otherwise they share a lot of parts with trucks.



The bus chassis that TATA and ALL build is slightly different for buses and trucks. For example ALL used Hino engines for the buses only and a differnt Gearbox too.
Well.. bus chassis is lower (try to compare how difficult it is to get onto a tata bus versus Volvo) and look at the overhang between the wheels and the end of the chassis. Also, I dont think you can compare the suspension setup in a bus chassis versus that of a truck chassis !!
spadival is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2007, 18:38   #41
Senior - BHPian
 
aseem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,737
Thanked: 416 Times
Default

Volvo busses/trucks are owned by French based company and Volvo cars are Swedish. As far as I know Volvo S80 was previously quite an unsafe car and had led to many deaths. But later releases the safety became top notch. Having said that, generally Volvo can be considered a safe ride but even top most manf are prone when it comes to safety.
aseem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2007, 20:43   #42
Ram
Senior - BHPian
 
Ram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Singapore, Mumbai, Nagpur
Posts: 2,165
Thanked: 144 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadival View Post
Well.. bus chassis is lower (try to compare how difficult it is to get onto a tata bus versus Volvo) and look at the overhang between the wheels and the end of the chassis. Also, I dont think you can compare the suspension setup in a bus chassis versus that of a truck chassis !!
That's right. The Volvo B7R chassis comes with electronically controlled air suspension on both front and rear axles. No truck would ever use air-suspension.

The Volvo B7R has Brake Blending (blend of wheel brakes, engine braking and Voith hydraulic retarder).
And it has Hill Start Aid. This helps the driver start smoothly on hills by electronically delaying brake release after the driver takes his foot off the brake pedal until he presses the accelerator.

Its electronically controlled braking system, Volvo EBS combines both Brake Blending and Hill Start Aid.

The Volvo B7R's braking computer embedded system has digital control system software that adjusts brake pressure individually on each axle, after sensors sense parameters such as acceleration, steering wheel movement and wheel speed.

With engine, gearbox, hydraulic retarder and live axle all at the rear, all you have in front is remote controls and steering. So the design can be stretched or compressed without having to account for propeller shaft length nor propeller shaft angle.
Ram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2007, 21:10   #43
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Mpower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 10,432
Thanked: 1,682 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
That's right. The Volvo B7R chassis comes with electronically controlled air suspension on both front and rear axles. No truck would ever use air-suspension.

The Volvo B7R has Brake Blending (blend of wheel brakes, engine braking and Voith hydraulic retarder).
And it has Hill Start Aid. This helps the driver start smoothly on hills by electronically delaying brake release after the driver takes his foot off the brake pedal until he presses the accelerator.

Its electronically controlled braking system, Volvo EBS combines both Brake Blending and Hill Start Aid.
All European and american and japanese trucks have full air suspension. Its optional on the Indian FH12. ABS is mandatory in US for all commercial vehicles and retarders are optional equipment. Low floor is desirable for city buses and not intercity coaches where you need to store luggagle under the frame. Low step in height can always be achieved by adding more steps.

India - Volvo Trucks : suspension
Mpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2007, 21:26   #44
Senior - BHPian
 
iraghava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bhaiyyaland
Posts: 8,028
Thanked: 153 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Volvo cars are Swedish.
And owned by Ford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
As far as I know Volvo S80 was previously quite an unsafe car and had led to many deaths. But later releases the safety became top notch. Having said that, generally Volvo can be considered a safe ride but even top most manf are prone when it comes to safety.
I think you're confusing the Volvo with some other car. In recent history there has not been any problems with the safety aspect of any of Volvo's cars. Infact for more than 3 decades now they've been known for their insistence on the safety factor of their cars. Actually IIRC they are the company which invented the Crash test Dummy.
iraghava is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2007, 23:51   #45
Senior - BHPian
 
rahul_intlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,577
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

What is Hill start aid actually,is it the same thing as Hill descent control?
rahul_intlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Think Safety , Think Abs !!! Beemer Street Experiences 73 28th November 2016 19:00
Buses of Contract Carriages / Tourist Buses girishglg Commercial Vehicles 11 2nd April 2012 11:18
Think Hyundai cars are slow? Think again. drifter The International Automotive Scene 3 27th September 2005 17:00
Think your a driving game/sim freak? Think Again.. Pferdestärke Shifting gears 10 25th June 2004 00:15


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 23:33.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks