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Old 11th May 2007, 21:52   #16
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Originally Posted by ram View Post
A space-frame network of rectangular section steel-tubing (rather than a conventional ladder chassis frame) serves to structurally support the body between the front and rear axles. This area is used to carry luggage.
Rewind back to another day (not too long ago) another thread and another bus. I asked a few humble questions on spaceframe chassis and the architecture the B7R follows .

There was this response

"What on earth is a space-frame bus? Haven't heard of any such thing."

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...sleeper-3.html

Good to know that learning happens fast!

Last edited by 1100D : 11th May 2007 at 21:56.
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Old 12th May 2007, 09:09   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Rewind back to another day (not too long ago) another thread and another bus. I asked a few humble questions on spaceframe chassis and the architecture the B7R follows .

There was this response

"What on earth is a space-frame bus? Haven't heard of any such thing."

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...sleeper-3.html

Good to know that learning happens fast!
Sorry, I don't understand you, sir! Am of course willing to be your student, if you are willing to teach.

This Kinglong is not a space-frame bus, by a long stretch of imagination.

It is a bus chassis with a center space frame portion.
That portion is formed by a plurality of cross bars, reinforcing bars, and side bars disposed to a space
and a plurality of plates interconnected to the reinforcing bars and side bars, to reinforce a structural stiffness.

Not quite the true space-frame body as seen in the Audi sedan,
which I submit below to educate all interested.



If you know of a proper space-frame bus that we haven't heard about,
please educate us by providing a picture.

Ram Rao
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Old 13th May 2007, 15:03   #18
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Very nice review sir.

Which company is marketing these buses,providing service network etc.
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Old 13th May 2007, 17:20   #19
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Originally Posted by rahul_intlad View Post
Very nice review sir.

Which company is marketing these buses,providing service network etc.
Thanks for the compliment , rahul_intlad !
I have no idea which company is marketing and servicing these buses.
One guess is: it should be JCBL, who import the components and build the body. I have also seen a website called Cerita Motors

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Old 13th May 2007, 18:15   #20
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this exhaustive write up clears my prejudice about everything chinese!!!! i always had the perception that everything chinese(atleast whatever is available in india!) is built to a cost and not built to last. but this is a serious competitor to the long standing monopoly of volvo in this intercity business market that is really growing in size!
ive always been a fan of your knowledge, Ram uncle..i'd really love to have a conversation with u in person....im sure i would learn so much!!! ur like an automobile encyclopedia....i seriously suggest you should write a book!
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Old 13th May 2007, 19:36   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post

Despite drum-brakes on all four wheels, it comes
with ABS (Anti blockier system).


couldnt help spotting this. isnt abs anti-lock braking system?? nice review btw.
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Old 13th May 2007, 19:41   #22
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Quote:
I have no idea which company is marketing and servicing these buses.
One guess is: it should be JCBL
JCBL's web site lists KingLong as it's partner. KingLong's logo can be seen on the wind-shield and the steering wheel.

Last edited by condor : 13th May 2007 at 19:43.
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Old 13th May 2007, 21:27   #23
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Any idea how much this bus costs compared to the Volvo.
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Old 13th May 2007, 21:59   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
this exhaustive write up clears my prejudice about everything chinese!!!!
What I wanted to say but was finding tough admitting. Thanks. Let us wait for a year or two though.
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Old 15th May 2007, 01:03   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
It is a bus chassis with a center space frame portion.
That portion is formed by a plurality of cross bars, reinforcing bars, and side bars disposed to a space
and a plurality of plates interconnected to the reinforcing bars and side bars, to reinforce a structural stiffness.
This is what some people call as Space-frame bus. I used to have a co-worker who was fascinated with Busses/Motorhomes and Trains. He showed me the difference between the body on frame busses, Modular chassis, and spaceframe. Could be that I caught you offguard with the Semantics of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
Not quite the true space-frame body as seen in the Audi sedan,
which I submit below to educate all interested.




Ram Rao
This is the Aluminium Space frame, its the extension of the Monocoque, unibody architecture but employing aluminium composites instead of steel (and offcourse the difference in load calculations and design to accomodate the different metal). The stress (in the "Aluminium space frame" jargon) is on Aluminium rather than the space frame.


Car body building is different from bus body building and one should not read spaceframe in Bus-world as monocoque/unibody as expected in the car-world. But like you already pointed out that monocoque buses (space-frame as you read it) are a rarety let alone Aluminium Spaceframe which works out even prohibitively expensive even for cars.


I did some quick searching, here you are, this defines the patent to what they call as the space-frame bus
Bus frame having center space frame - Patent 6322105

And here is the detail of the patent itself

United States Patent: 4203623

Last edited by 1100D : 15th May 2007 at 01:19.
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Old 15th May 2007, 10:25   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
This is what some people call as Space-frame bus.
Some people may call anything as anything else.
Try to understand it ab initio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
This is the aluminium space frame, it's the extension of the monocoque, unibody architecture but employing aluminium composites instead of steel.
I know Audis are aluminum. So what?
Monocoque does not morph into spaceframe, just because aluminum was used instead of steel.

A hen's egg is monocoque.
Why? Because, the shell alone carries most of the stresses.
[Origin: 1910–15; from Frence, equiv. to mono- (single or sole) + coque shell, eggshell ]
A spaceframe has stress-bearing beams and columns enclosing space. One example is Bucky Fuller's Geodesic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
The stress (in the "Aluminium space frame" jargon) is on Aluminium rather than the space frame.
Whose stress?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Car body building is different from bus body building and one should not read spaceframe in Bus-world as monocoque/unibody as expected in the car-world.
I disagree. Space frame implies building a space-enclosing frame with stress-bearing beams and columns and struts and braces. It even extends to civil-engineering construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
But like you already pointed out that monocoque buses (space-frame as you read it) are a rarety let alone Aluminium Spaceframe which works out even prohibitively expensive even for cars.
Again. I did not read space-frame as monocoque !
And neither rarity nor expense alters engineering definitions.
I am alluding to the world of engineering, not of politicians or legal interpretations.

Sorry, I do realize that, this is drifting off-topic. So I won't comment on this subject in this thread anymore. Please start a separate thread in an appropriate place and we can explore engineering semantics.
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Old 15th May 2007, 14:28   #27
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couldnt help spotting this.
isnt abs anti-lock braking system?? nice review btw.
Thanks akshay1234.

To be correct, for the record,
inasmuchas GSM is originally Groupe Spécial Mobile,
ABS
(in its electronic feedback control system form) was invented by the Germans and stands for Antiblockiersystem
(Like sandhi in Sanskrit, in German you run all the three words together to form one word).

Retrofitting these acronyms to to satisy English-speaking users
viz. Antilock Braking System and
Global System for Mobile communications
happened historically later.

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Old 15th May 2007, 17:39   #28
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Interesting debate there between Ram and 1100D!

From what I know, buses are of two broad types:
  1. conventional
  2. integral
Conventional Buses: The conventional buses have a truck type ladder frame chassis supplied by the chassis manufacturer (along with engine and gearbox of course!) on which the body is constructed, usually by a party different from the chassis manufacturer. The body construction involves welding/bolting/rivetting steel beams and sheets. The load of the body and passengers is borne by the chassis alone. Over 95% of the Indian buses are of this type. In the old days, this was also the type in vogue in UK and Europe. In Europe though, the engine was usually at the rear, even in conventional buses. Conventional buses continue to be in vogue in the US even today, especially in the school bus category.

Integral Buses: They do not have a separate ladder-type chassis but a frame made of steel rods/beams welded together to form one integrated whole. The chassis and body are not separate. The construction is such that the load of the body and passengers is borne by the entire structure. The roof shares as much passenger load as the floor! Also, during impact, the force is evenly distributed to the entire frame, causing lesser injuries to passengers (at least theoretically). Integral body permits lower floors that fecilitate easy ingress and egress for passengers.

Public transport experts have usually complained that Indian buses are actually modified trucks and must be replaced by integral buses in the interests of passenger comfort and safety. However, such buses have not been able to gain popularity in India mainly because of complicated manufacturing process, higher cost and lower ground clearance that makes it difficult to negotiate pot holed roads. Way back in late seventies Ashok Leyland had announced that it will launch the famous Leyland National integral bus in India. Trials were conducted all over the country but the bus was not successful at all. For the Indian version, the design was modified in such a way that in spite of integral construction, AL was to manufacture only the main frame of the body, just to ensure that the local bus body manufacturers do not become jobless! In 1980s, Kirloskar had also announced plans to manufacture Neoplan integral buses in India. I remember sitting in one at an expo in Delhi. A road test was also published by the Car & Bike magazine. However, this bus too failed in the market, with no takers.

Curiously, all these years, India has been producing rail coaches with integral construction at the Integral Rail Coach factory. Somehow, the expertise was never utilised in the bus industry.

Of course, thanks to Volvo, things have changed and integral buses are finally catching up. Both AL and Tata (among others) have ambitious plans for producing modern buses.

Now my questions are:
  1. Isn't there a confusion between integral bus and monocoque bus?
  2. Isn't an integral bus the same thing as a space frame bus?
  3. Do you really have a monocoque construction in buses?
  4. I assume the bus reviewed by Ram is a hybrid/semi-integral, i.e. a mix of conventional and integral/space frame. A few years back, Tata had displayed a similar bus at Auto Expo.

Last edited by directinjection : 15th May 2007 at 17:50.
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Old 15th May 2007, 20:46   #29
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Quote:
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Now my questions are:
  1. Isn't an integral bus the same thing as a space frame bus?
That is what I know. Additionally Integral/space frame Busses cannot be tinkered around with internal structure wise, unless proper design analysis is done on the body towards various load bearing parameters.

Now simple questions, aren't most cars available in the Indian Market (save the SUV's) Monocoque? Answer is yes. When you take out the outer shell panels (which is also part of the complete load bearing structure) doesn't the stripped out structure look exactly like the picture of the stripped Audi.

We know Audi uses Aluminium as the Metal for A8 cars (in pic)

But Audi says this is "Aluminium Space Frame"

Little searching says Space Frame as

Space frame - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Where Outer panels pay no part in structural rigidity)

So will you consider "Audi Aluminium Space Frame" as Spaceframe? Like I said, Audi (Marketing folks) Puts more stress Aluminium rather than the spaceframe bit in the jargon. (Thats my view)

Note, I may be wrong somewhere but I am open to learning.

Last edited by 1100D : 15th May 2007 at 20:47.
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Old 30th August 2007, 00:02   #30
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Default JCBL Cerita (MH 14 AH 7818)

Happened to travel on the same JCBL Cerita JC 11 HD (MH 14 AH 7818) again, Mumbai to Pune on Mon. 27th August 2007. Just over three months of west coast monsoon had gone by since the last writing.

The bus was now battle-scarred and rattling.
Noise and Vibration levels were decidedly higher.

Noticed that the speedometer had been disconnected and the odometer frozen at 84,389 km

Update...

Travelled Pune to Mumbai on Wed. 29th August 2007,
again on MH 14 AH 7818.

The odometer was still frozen at 84,389 km.









Wonder if the speedo's been disconnected to save the vehicle from going out of warranty with JCBL.

The front had taken a banging at some time. The fibreglass bumper cover was cracked, the foglamps were dull after multiple on-off cycles.



...and so was the mirror body broken and patched with duct tape.



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