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Old 23rd July 2007, 11:46   #136
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Originally Posted by AMATMO View Post
2008 will be a milestone in india's commercial market with the launch of TATA novus all over the country,with the launch of force-MAN trucks and also AMW,its from 2008 onwards we will see them in greater numbers changing the face of india truckers,these three brands will contribute most to india's commercial market.as far as volvo and benz are concerned it will never sell in very high numbers.and might create a segment of its own rather than replacing present ordinary trucks we have already
volvo and mercedes will have more impact on the bus market in india
Spotted a luxura on Koyembedu busstand, 18th July, Doing bangalore-Chennai. Owned by KSRTC, Couldn't get on it because had took tickets for anaother SETC
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Old 23rd July 2007, 11:58   #137
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Spotted a luxura on Koyembedu busstand, 18th July, Doing bangalore-Chennai. Owned by KSRTC, Couldn't get on it because had took tickets for anaother SETC
What are Luxura specs? Is it formally launched or still in sort of trial version? What is initial feedback?
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Old 23rd July 2007, 12:52   #138
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Ashok-Leyland's Luxura is aimed against the intercity Volvo/Kinglong segment.

Comes fully built from Ashok-Leyland. Supposedly longer than Volvo or Kinglong, it will have 45 seats and a 260 BHP J-series engine.

Will sit on a space frame and feature air-suspension.
Supposedly meets the latest international norms (where are these described?) for safety, seating, fire-safety and silent travel.

Irizar of Spain are a coach-builder like Kässbohrer Setra (subsidiary of Daimler AG) of Germany.

Here is a description of their InterCentury model.
IRIZAR>> InterCentury

The Luxura is an Irizar InterCentury made in India by Ashok-Leyland under their JV with Irizar.

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Old 23rd July 2007, 14:31   #139
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Per my recollection, Tata 1210 engine was close to 6 liters. 4.7 sounds too low.
1210 engine was a little over 4.7 litre but below 4800 CC.
The engine was known as Tata DI 692.
Its Bore was 92 MM and stroke 120 MM.
Can someone good in maths do the calculation please?

The first Tata truck with engine close to 6 litre capacity was the 1516, introduced around 1980. Its engine (called DI 697) had a capacity of approximately 5600 CC. It developed 160 HP @ 2800 RPM. The truck was rechristened as 1616 after a few years. 1210 never got the 697 engine.
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Old 23rd July 2007, 14:48   #140
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Originally Posted by AMATMO View Post
2008 will be a milestone in india's commercial market with the launch of TATA novus all over the country,with the launch of force-MAN trucks and also AMW,its from 2008 onwards we will see them in greater numbers changing the face of india truckers,these three brands will contribute most to india's commercial market.as far as volvo and benz are concerned it will never sell in very high numbers.and might create a segment of its own rather than replacing present ordinary trucks we have already
volvo and mercedes will have more impact on the bus market in india
Tata Novus was launched in India in December 2005 but hasn't sold much due to high price. Check this:

Tata Motors - Media Centre

As of now, there is limited market in India for sophisticated CVs like Novus, Volvo or Mercedes Benz.

FORCE-MAN might just be different since the models being introduced in India are phased-out models of MAN. So, the plant and tooling might have come cheap. Also, the engine capacity of the proposed truck is about 6.8 litres which is more close to what Tata and AL currently offer than to the real heavies from Volvo and MB.
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Old 23rd July 2007, 14:54   #141
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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
FORCE-MAN might just be different since the models being introduced in India are phased-out models of MAN. So, the plant and tooling might have come cheap. Also, the engine capacity of the proposed truck is about 6.8 litres which is more close to what Tata and AL currently offer than to the real heavies from Volvo and MB.
I think the real secret to a brand/ product's success is their sense of the customer need - look at a tiny cmpany like AMW which has made a huge success of the 49-tonner market, a niche category. A 100% Indian company, with plant at Bhuj, almost entirely outsourced (Engine Cummins, Gear Box ZF, etc), operating in a non-auto zone.
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Old 23rd July 2007, 15:39   #142
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Yes. you can buy a lot of truck chassis and get the tin-on-steel-angle bus bodies constructed and charge Rs. 1 per km. But then your PSU would get financially more sick and people would blame you anyway.
Not all "tin-on-steel-angle bus bodies" are bad. Take the ones that Tata gets constructed from ACGL for instance. For that matter, the popular yellow school buses in USA (with bonnet in front of the body) are also "tin-on-steel-angle bus bodies". They last and last and are deemed by the finicky Americans to be safe enough for their kids.

For rough Indian roads, the "tin-on-steel-angle bus bodies" with their high ground clearance and rigid ladder frame chassis are actually more suitable.

It is not that integral coaches with air suspension and other fancy features haven't been built and tried in India in the past. AL had introduced one around 1980 (the Indian version of Leyland National Integral bus). There were no takers for it. Kirloskar had introduced the ultra-luxurious Neoplan Integral bus in 1980s. It didn't succeed.

Of course, all that happened in the pre-GQ era.

But then even today, do you think the Volvo buses can run successfully on country roads and in moffusil towns? They'll break down into pieces in no time.

If the Volvos are a necessity today, so are the "tin-on-steel-angle" buses which must continue to exist although their build quality needs much improvement. The long pending bus body code developed by ARAI must be implemented with immediate effect to get rid of those road side bus body manufacturers. You can have safety and comfort features even in body-on-chassis buses. Air suspension for instance.

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The paradox is, only a cash rich PSU can invest in hordes of the tin box trucks for the traveler who would travel ticketless if he could. I have personally seen mobs of people travel ticketless in buses in the Kolkata area.
That might be true in Kolkata but not in Delhi or Haryana (and I'm sure in many other places and states as well). Whenever I have travelled in a PSU local bus in Delhi, almost on every occasion, the passengers' tickets have been checked by a dedicated ticket checker.

Haryana Roadways has usually made profits ever since its inception in late 1960s and I've personally seen some very capable and honest IAS officers heading it ensuring that.

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Originally Posted by ram View Post
Haven't the "super-expensive, foreign buses" have changed the paradigm of mass transportation in India?
No, they haven't. Their numbers would need to multiply by a couple of hundred times for that statement to become true.

Last edited by directinjection : 23rd July 2007 at 15:49.
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Old 23rd July 2007, 15:44   #143
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i had read that tata will manufacture novus in india in 2008 is that true?
IMO MAN trucks are improtant ,even though they are phased out models ,as in the current scene condition of the trucks is very bad. these MAN trucks will create a better picture of the truck scene in the country.and the fact that they will come cheap makes them more important and capable of serving majority truckers
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Old 23rd July 2007, 15:47   #144
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@DI: How come U know the engine capacities of a lot of TATA trucks?
Do u work in Tata??
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Old 23rd July 2007, 15:53   #145
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@DI: How come U know the engine capacities of a lot of TATA trucks?
Do u work in Tata??
No I don't.
It's just that I grew up watching them and collecting info about them.
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Old 23rd July 2007, 16:49   #146
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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
Not all "tin-on-steel-angle bus bodies" are bad. Take the ones that Tata gets constructed from ACGL for instance.
Sez who? Does one Tata exception (if that), refute the rule?

Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection
For that matter, the popular yellow school buses in USA (with bonnet in front of the body) are also "tin-on-steel-angle bus bodies". They last and last and are deemed by the finicky Americans to be safe enough for their kids.
American kids have got killed in a "tin-on-steel-angle" school bus because of the way it's constructed.

"The school bus is a vehicle that has basically not been redesigned, with the exception of some added seat padding, in over 40 years, so we're dealing with a 40-year-old antique in terms of its body, its being prone to rollover, and its lack of traction control," says Alan Ross, president of the nonprofit National Coalition for School Bus Safety in Torrington, Connecticut.

"They also allow the use of very flammable urethane material in the seating that is now barred from use in cars, boats and planes; there are inadequate emergency exits; and a poor two-way communication system between drivers and the outside world. All of these things need to be addressed," adds Ross.

About the Big Yellow School Bus - NCSBS

Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection
For rough Indian roads, the "tin-on-steel-angle bus bodies" with their high ground clearance and rigid ladder frame chassis are actually more suitable.
Suitable for the passenger or for the owner?
You might as well outfit seats in the dropside bed of a lorry. In fact, lorries are frequently seen packed with people like whole pickled mangoes in a vadu mango pickle jar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection
But then even today, do you think the Volvo buses can run successfully on country roads and in moffusil towns? They'll break down into pieces in no time.
Has a single one broken yet because of a bad road ?
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Old 23rd July 2007, 17:13   #147
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Has a single one broken yet because of a bad road ?
If you ask in the Bangalore-Mangalore NH48, you will find that thanks to bad roads in the Shiradi Ghat after Sakleshpur, Volvo buses were withdrawn from that route after they faced huge problems in the bad roads. And the tin-pot buses are still plying. And India is not just NH48 (a prestigious highway), but a lot more and the ST roads that ply on worse roads are not Volvos.

Talking of safe seats and road safety, I am sure you will not miss several episodes involving Volvo accidents and fires that keep taking the toll.
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Old 23rd July 2007, 18:38   #148
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Originally Posted by hvkumar View Post
If you ask in the Bangalore-Mangalore NH48, you will find that thanks to bad roads in the Shiradi Ghat after Sakleshpur, Volvo buses were withdrawn from that route after they faced huge problems in the bad roads. And the tin-pot buses are still plying.

Talking of safe seats and road safety, I am sure you will not miss several episodes involving Volvo accidents and fires that keep taking the toll.
Bullock carts have plied since the dawn of the Mohenjo-Daro and Harappan civilization, ca 2600 BC. Does that make them better than Volvos?

hvkumar, I am aware of the one and only serious Volvo B7R tragedy when a Bombay to Ahmedabad Patel Volvo crashed into a truck at the Gujarat Narmada Fertilizer Corp. chowki at Bharuch, Gujarat two years ago and burned charring 22 people to death.

Do you know of any single other accident where a Volvo B7R caught fire or a B7R passenger was killed in India?
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Old 23rd July 2007, 18:39   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
American kids have got killed in a "tin-on-steel-angle" school bus because of the way it's constructed.

"The school bus is a vehicle that has basically not been redesigned, with the exception of some added seat padding, in over 40 years, so we're dealing with a 40-year-old antique in terms of its body, its being prone to rollover, and its lack of traction control," says Alan Ross, president of the nonprofit National Coalition for School Bus Safety in Torrington, Connecticut.

"They also allow the use of very flammable urethane material in the seating that is now barred from use in cars, boats and planes; there are inadequate emergency exits; and a poor two-way communication system between drivers and the outside world. All of these things need to be addressed," adds Ross.

About the Big Yellow School Bus - NCSBS
The safety issues mentioned in the website are of a peripheral nature, viz. seat belts, seat fabric material, strobe lights, etc. which might as well apply to integral buses of the Volvo type. The web site nowhere criticises the basic design of the American schoolbus (which is of the body-on-chassis type) as being unsafe.

Other than school buses, most American buses are of the integral type. Yet, the safety-obsessed country persists in having body-on-chassis design for its school buses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
Suitable for the passenger or for the owner?
You might as well outfit seats in the dropside bed of a lorry. In fact, lorries are frequently seen packed with people like whole pickled mangoes in a vadu mango pickle jar.
Didn't I argue for improving safety standards of the conventional buses? That's a far more viable solution than introducing unaffordable Volvos. Who has prevented the Government from introducing bus and truck body standards that were framed by ARAI years ago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
Has a single one broken yet because of a bad road ?
Owners are wise enough not to drive them on bad roads.

Last edited by directinjection : 23rd July 2007 at 18:41.
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Old 23rd July 2007, 20:17   #150
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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
1210 engine was a little over 4.7 litre but below 4800 CC.
The engine was known as Tata DI 692.
Its Bore was 92 MM and stroke 120 MM.
Can someone good in maths do the calculation please?

The first Tata truck with engine close to 6 litre capacity was the 1516, introduced around 1980. Its engine (called DI 697) had a capacity of approximately 5600 CC. It developed 160 HP @ 2800 RPM. The truck was rechristened as 1616 after a few years. 1210 never got the 697 engine.
Long stroke Huh.... looks better for torque.. Was it ever turbocharged?? Did it have any issues in turbocharging??
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