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Old 17th September 2009, 11:23   #181
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Originally Posted by teamveevee View Post
How much profit do you think they will make after all expenses? After all expenses including salaries for staff/support staff/maintenance etc. How many years it will take to recover the investment of 90 Lakh for the bus.
[If they auction, the bus in 2 years, let us substract the auction value from 90-Lakh, Still!]. Do you think it will be profitable for KerSRTC? I really doubt. But KerSRTC is making huge losses per month, it does not matter.

The same with Private Operators also. But if they could transport items such as Spirit from KA, it is worth the investment. Also for the private operators, it is a prestige to operate the Volvos. Eventhough they loose money in Volvos, they make money with non-volvo services. Also these Volvo operators could charge slighly more for the non-volvo services becuase of the good will they get by operating Volvos.

Can you name an operator who is business for more than 3 years by running just Volvos?

Please note that there are also operators who stopped business in less than 3 years by running just Non A/c busess!!

The discussion is about operators not about `only Volvo operators'. My math was just an illustration which can be worked out on non Volvo buses as well.

Operators choosing their fleet is their own business strategy to make profit out of that and the best "businessman" win here like in any other business. I don't think they will risk their business only for prestige!

In addition, as an example, on Bangalore-Mumbai route, non a/c buses charge as less as Rs. 625 for about 1000kms where on Bangalore-Kochi, they charge Rs. 550 for 550kms (approx). Still they are in business for many years. If the Mumbai operator is not in loss, how Kochi operator could be?

Last edited by coolclouds : 17th September 2009 at 11:24.
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Old 17th September 2009, 12:06   #182
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If the Mumbai operator is not in loss, how Kochi operator could be?
The Mumbai operator (1) Passes through only 2 States. (2) runs on comparatively better roads. (3) Has not much competition from alternative modes of transport.

The Cochin / Kerala operator passes through 3 staes TN, KA and KL means more taxes. Encounters worser and busier roads and has to contend with Railways. The KL operator has to contend with spill over traffic from Railways. (Like people not getting tickets on trains / having to leave after the last train leaves, etc)

Well, I may be wrong about the MH / Mumbai sector.
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Old 17th September 2009, 12:27   #183
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Originally Posted by teamveevee View Post
How much profit do you think they will make after all expenses? After all expenses including salaries for staff/support staff/maintenance etc. How many years it will take to recover the investment of 90 Lakh for the bus.
1 year on the Goa - Bombay route to get back the investment on one Volvo. This is from the horses mouth. Unless you don't bang it up bad or the bus gets stuck in legal issues.

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But KerSRTC is making huge losses per month, it does not matter.

The same with Private Operators also.
Please do not club Government run operators against Private Operators. Its like comparing chalk and cheese.

Government run services have huge overheads.

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But if they could transport items such as Spirit from KA, it is worth the investment.
A lot more is transported and earns good returns.

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Also for the private operators, it is a prestige to operate the Volvos. Eventhough they loose money in Volvos, they make money with non-volvo services. Also these Volvo operators could charge slighly more for the non-volvo services becuase of the good will they get by operating Volvos.
It is because of competition not Prestige. And more importantly it gives good returns.

Example: Remember Kirloskar along with Neoplan came out with top of the line buses like more then a decade back?

The same horse i am talking about above told me this was not viable then because infrastructure, loans to purchase and high spending passengers were very less. That's why those buses today are rotting away.

Today Kirloskar Neoplan is Volvo.

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Can you name an operator who is business for more than 3 years by running just Volvos?
NEETA Travels? I think they run only Volvo's and are in it since the Volvo bus was launched. I will need to confirm though.

Raj International Travels is one that ran only Volvo's but went into a loss and has now shutdown. But the reasons are not because they ran only Volvo's. It was more an administrative bungling then the service itself.
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Old 17th September 2009, 12:28   #184
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Folks,
Interesting discussion.
The pricing model adopted by these operators is Route dependent, demand dependant,brand dependant.

Eg - Chennai -trichy - 325 kms (within TN)- Rs 300- 400/0
Chennai-Nagerkoil - 650 kms (beyond trichy within TN)0 Rs 400- 500/-

All these prices are during off season, during weekends/festival time - they go for the kill a la airlines did last week when jet flights were cancelled.

Besides this during festival seasons small time operators will operate atleast 3 buses with one permit.....They are street smart and only very few walk off the trade..few omni buses carry loads equal to a minilorry on them

tnx
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Old 17th September 2009, 13:19   #185
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Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
The Mumbai operator (1) Passes through only 2 States. (2) runs on comparatively better roads. (3) Has not much competition from alternative modes of transport.

The Cochin / Kerala operator passes through 3 staes TN, KA and KL means more taxes. Encounters worser and busier roads and has to contend with Railways. The KL operator has to contend with spill over traffic from Railways. (Like people not getting tickets on trains / having to leave after the last train leaves, etc)

Well, I may be wrong about the MH / Mumbai sector.
(1) Agree. But how much difference a monthly 30-50K (?) can make on this turnover?

(2) GQ is still not complete for Mumbai. On the other side, roads towards Kerala also improved a lot (not forgetting the monsoon condition though).
Moreover, Bangalore-Kochi is done in 11hrs while Bangalore-Mumbai is done in 24-28hrs which makes a big difference.

(3) How many daily night trains are there between Kerala & Bangalore? One Island Express?
Kochuveli exp/Ernakulam Exp etc won't compete much with them.



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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
NEETA Travels? I think they run only Volvo's and are in it since the Volvo bus was launched. I will need to confirm though.

Raj International Travels is one that ran only Volvo's but went into a loss and has now shutdown. But the reasons are not because they ran only Volvo's. It was more an administrative bungling then the service itself.
Neeta travels is pioneers in Volvo and service to Pune/Goa/Ahmedabad/Hybd/Shirdi etc etc. Me too think that majority/all of their fleet is Volvo.

Raj travels made a wide entry to the market also to help their package tours but their administrative issues pulled them down.

Last edited by coolclouds : 17th September 2009 at 13:29.
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Old 17th September 2009, 13:30   #186
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I am really curious to know why Raj Travels shut down. The couple of times i used their service, i was quite impressed. The quality of their buses was also good.
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Old 17th September 2009, 14:07   #187
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I am really curious to know why Raj Travels shut down. The couple of times i used their service, i was quite impressed. The quality of their buses was also good.

RAJ NE is owned by a Gujrat based business man.He had ordered for 100 Volvo s about three years back. He couldn't look in to the administrative part and the staff became rich day by day.The staff used to sell the blankets,headphones and other welcome kits meant for passengers in the market just for half the price.I have personally seen couple of drivers sleeping in the bus with A/C on at parking ground in Cochin,and they say no one is to question about how much diesel is consumed per trip etc... Then in kerala sector it was then operated by Aluva based SONA travels. In between one of the buses engine got ceased near mettur and was lying stand still for nearly 1 month. Even Volvo couldnt help them since they where not paying the EMI s properly. Now the same bus is being parked in the road opp to petrol pump in Madiwala,and the condition is pathetic. The battery s,TV,removable engine parts have been stolen.We can also notice the marks of tar being sprayed while tarring the road. No one is to question this.
Mean while the SONA travels brought 2 second hand volvo s (First volvo in kerala-owned by puzhekadavil)and started thier own operations.

Kallada is to start new service to TVM by multi axle volvo. Saw the brand new bus parked in front of thier office awaiting registration today morning.It is Green in colour with silver lines.
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Old 17th September 2009, 14:16   #188
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My feeling is that the demand outstrips the supply comfortably in the Bangalore - Kerala sector which is why the fares are higher. I think at one point of time the fares of Hubli - Bangalore was higher in KSRTC as compared to the private guys because the buses never used to run full.

Having said that I dont believe that because of poor patronage during weekdays could result in loss for the operators, except for Puzhakadavil name one operator who went out of business after plying the Bangalore - Kerala sector.
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Old 17th September 2009, 14:24   #189
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So all bus operators are running in losses and still in the business as social service to the nation?
Most certainly not. In fact some years ago when I lived at Bangalore, I have heard of a famous operator in Karnataka (an MP too) lobbying with powers that be to soft pedal rail links to that part of the state, to which he operates a lot of services.

Till very recently I often traveled in the Chennai - Tuticorin sector, mostly by train, but often enough by bus (Vivegam / Perinbavilas / MGM) to get familiar with the crew as well as support staff. What I understood from my conversations was, the ticket fare for each trip will cover the Diesel/maint/wages and what they charge for the parcels - roof top as well as boot - and for the documents (all of them also run a courier service) will be the profit. More often than not this will equal or exceed the ticket collection.

As an aside, once I had to travel in the unreserved coach of the Pearl City Express, and it was the first one after the Locomotive. All trains to south TN operate with diesels even though the route is electrified up to a point, to save on loco change over time. When I got down at Villupuram to have tea, the loco pilot also came to the shop for tea. He seemed a friendly type and I got talking to him. I inevitably asked him what mileage will we get and he said the consumption from Chennai till VPM (150 KM) was about 900 litres, and since Chennai - Tuticorin was 650 KM, it worked out to about 3900 litres. So the mileage was 6 litres per KM!

He further enlightened me that the correct terminology is Diesel Electric Locomotive, and it operates like a hybrid - the diesel is used to operate onboard Generators, and the train actually runs from the electricity so generated. If it operated with an IC engine like a bus, the consumption will be a lot, lot more.

Last edited by Gansan : 17th September 2009 at 14:27.
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Old 17th September 2009, 14:31   #190
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Don't these very same operators carry more baggage in their underbellies and overhead racks (in case of non-AC buses) than the amount they are legally permitted? Under Contract Carriage/Tourist Permit rules, these buses are supposed to have only the baggage of the passengers travelling by the bus. These operators carry so much luggage, that passengers are often denied space to keep their luggage.

I have personally seen enough luggage to fill a truck being unloaded from a Shama Gold Class. So, do you still intend to say these buses run on loss?


I have heard this from a RTO official. Not much sure any ways it goes like this.

There is a difference in the rules/permit for TRAVELS and TRANSPORTS . If the company is registered as TRAVELS(eg: KALLADA TRAVELS, PARVEEN TRAVELS) they have the permit to carry any luggage which is legally permitted,and the owner of luggage need not accompany in the bus.

If the company is registered as TRANSPORT they only have the right to carry perishable items like flowers ,vegetables and passenger luggage (computer or motor bikes, house items) and it is mandatory that the owner of the passenger luggage should be there in the bus.

Other interesting fact for TRAVELS : Suppose a bus is destined to KTM from BLR. The bus reaches KTM and it should return only with the same set of passengers back to BLR. But no officials/operators cares about this.
This is the reason for giving passengers list to the driver in case any problem occur.

For TRANSPORTS: The same KTM -BLR route they can go with a set of passengers ,drop in KTM and come back with other set of passengers to BLR.
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Old 17th September 2009, 15:46   #191
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Originally Posted by gold class View Post
Don't these very same operators carry more baggage in their underbellies and overhead racks (in case of non-AC buses) than the amount they are legally permitted? Under Contract Carriage/Tourist Permit rules, these buses are supposed to have only the baggage of the passengers travelling by the bus. These operators carry so much luggage, that passengers are often denied space to keep their luggage.
Neither the contract carriage permit, nor the tourist permit conditions allow a vehicle to run a vehicle on a specific route.

Contract carriage permit allows use of a vehicle within a state, or in a specified area within the state. If a contract carriage vehicle goes out side the stae, the other state (well, most) will charge road tax for each entry.

Tourist vehicle permit is required for operating interstate vehicles. They are supposed to submit monthly statements, showing names of individuals travelling on it, to the concerned RTO (permit issuing RTO).

What the operators do is get the list of passengers for each day, and show them as being taken on some conducted tour. Of coruse, they take care to show identical names on return journey too.

Quote:
There is a difference in the rules/permit for TRAVELS and TRANSPORTS . If the company is registered as TRAVELS(eg: KALLADA TRAVELS, PARVEEN TRAVELS) they have the permit to carry any luggage which is legally permitted,and the owner of luggage need not accompany in the bus.
Permit is given to the vehicle owner, in respect of a specific vehicle. For example, "XYY Transports private Limited" can obtain a national / contract carriage permit in respect of vehicle, "ST 01 AB 420".

What other registration is required?

I have a fair knowledge of MV rules, and the above information is pure baloney.

Quote:
Other interesting fact for TRAVELS : Suppose a bus is destined to KTM from BLR. The bus reaches KTM and it should return only with the same set of passengers back to BLR. But no officials/operators cares about this.
True; conditions of the National permit requires this.
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Old 17th September 2009, 20:17   #192
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Originally Posted by gold class View Post
There is a difference in the rules/permit for TRAVELS and TRANSPORTS . If the company is registered as TRAVELS(eg: KALLADA TRAVELS, PARVEEN TRAVELS) they have the permit to carry any luggage which is legally permitted,and the owner of luggage need not accompany in the bus.
Now this is pure story telling. If there existed such a rule, why doesn't TVS/ABT/ARC etc re-name their transport divisions to Travels, and save money on taxes?

Any vehicle carrying goods for money is liable to pay taxes at entry/exit points to each state - which these so called "travels" escape paying. All these operators state the arrival time in Kerala as "depending on checking at Walayar". If they were "legally permitted" to carry luggage, why on earth should they be "dependent" on checking at Walayar?

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Originally Posted by gold class View Post
For TRANSPORTS: The same KTM -BLR route they can go with a set of passengers ,drop in KTM and come back with other set of passengers to BLR.
There is no such permit, sir! Private operators are NOT permitted to carry passengers on inter-state routes (except certain nominated routes between KA-TN and TN-KL). Private buses are permitted to only operate "Conducted tours" (which would obviously mean that the passengers would return on the same bus after the 'tour').

The kind of "transport" permit that you are describing, is a monopoly of state transport undertakings. In Kerala, private operators are allowed to carry passengers from point-to-point - but that kind of permit is called a "Stage Carriage Permit". As of today, private buses are not allowed to ply between Kerala and Karnataka (the inter-state transport agreement allows for only STUs to operate buses).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Tourist vehicle permit is required for operating interstate vehicles. They are supposed to submit monthly statements, showing names of individuals travelling on it, to the concerned RTO (permit issuing RTO).
A Small addition - Tourist Vehicle permit allows only buses to be operated for the purpose of tourism - that is, the passengers have to necessarily be tourists.
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Old 19th September 2009, 10:32   #193
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Neeta travels is pioneers in Volvo and service to Pune/Goa/Ahmedabad/Hybd/Shirdi etc etc. Me too think that majority/all of their fleet is Volvo.
Travel by Neeta Travels is just horrible. For a service from Mumbai to Hyderabad, I have been charged 1100 and I have been put on a tata Globus bus till pune which started at 5:45 to accommodate a last moment passenger against the scheduled departure of 5pm , the bus was good however manned by unruly staff.

From pune, I was put on a Useless Omer Volvo which was leaking heavily even in the first seat. My advice is to refrain from neeta/omer combi on MUM-HYD sector.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 16:44   #194
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OK some updates

I toook the 1930 Kerala SRTC AC bus recently to Trichur. It was last Friday and everything out of BLR (Air/Train.Bus) were all chock full as the previous day most of the schools in BLR had closed for Dusshera holidays and it was also the Ramzan weekend. I had booked 20 days out so had no problems getting a seat. The bus was chock full with not a single NO-SHOW (all the folks who pre-reserved their tickets turned up).

Each time I travel with Kerala SRTC I am getting more and more impressed.

a The computer reservation counter at Majestic is hassle free especially if you go between 10AM -2 PM as there are hardly any buses leaving Majestic at that time and there is no crowd. Staff in the counters are friendly.

b, It is now back to off-peak pricing for Kerala SRTC (they did hike it briefly during the summer holidays) so the price I paid was a Bargain. An A/C bus for 460 Rs or so. What a bargain, I realised, the day of departure. That day as I mentioned was one of the very PEAK days in recent times for bus travel. Karnataka SRTC was true to its style was running a few A/C special service Airavaths and apparently (and this is no joke - I saw the ticket of a passenger in the bus) were charging 50% additional to the normal fare. One guy whose ticket I saw had paid 1200 + for a BLR-Kottayam ticket on a Volvo.!!!! This was no mistake - he had booked the ticket on the Internet , but then checked it with the counter guys in Majestic who confirmed that the extra charges are becasuse it is a special service. While these charges may be justified to some extent, it made the fare I paid to Trichur a real bargain.

c The Kerala SRTC buses turn up well in time, My 1930 bus turned up at its parking b ay by 1950 (a Karnataka SRTC SPECIAL Airavath supposed to leave at 1830 still had not made an appearance by that time).

The journey (Tata Globus was comfortable) was comfortable, the bus made just one stop enroute before it reached Palghat, and most impressively reached at 5 AM in Trichur, a full one hour ahead of its scheduled arrival time. Great driving and very courteous staff. This partcular service the 1930 Bangalore- Trichur Kerala SRTC AC bus will always be my first choice now (despite the fact that my final destination is beyond Alwaye).

I also bus hopped all the way from Alwaye to Trivandrum on KSRTC recently. No reservations and since it was raining heavily almost till Trivandrum. had no wish to hang around dirty bus stations, so took the first empty bus which was going along my way! Ended up taking Alwaye- Alleppy, Alleppy - Quilon and Quilon Trivandrum in three sepearate Fast Passengers. Driving was safe, speed was reasonable despite the rains and most imprtantly there were no free showers inside the bus

One particular strecth between Vytill and Aroor in the EKM bye pass was bad due to construction going on but everywhere else the roads are in good shape (esp between Alleepy and Kollam where I had taken the last row seat - for the luxury of having the whole three seats to myself).

Return Trivandrum to Ernakulam was on Janshatabdi express. This train is now extended to Calicut and speeded up. This has been the fastest I have travelled on a bus or train to Ernakulam from TVM. 3 hour 15 minutes. Train leaves Trivandrum at 6 AM and reaches Ernakulam at 9 15 AM with just four intermediate stops. When I travelled train was on time throughout (as well as PACKED). Advance reservations are higly recommended on weekends in 2 nd class and essential in AC Chair car on all days. Only complaint was that the coaches does not seemed to have been cleaned for some time!!!!


Looks like public transport in Kerala is improving day by day. Well done KSRTC and IR.
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Old 24th September 2009, 21:35   #195
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Each time I travel with Kerala SRTC I am getting more and more impressed.
Interestingly, the same happened to me as well! I always made it a point to travel by Kerala SRTC on all my Bangalore-Thrissur trips - despite the inconvenience of having to visit Majestic to book tickets. Those journeys are now history, though - since I relocated to my hometown, to continue my education

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a The computer reservation counter at Majestic is hassle free especially if you go between 10AM -2 PM as there are hardly any buses leaving Majestic at that time and there is no crowd. Staff in the counters are friendly.
Kerala SRTC's online reservation system is set to go online within a month. The new website is all ready, and the company in-charge of running it is just waiting for the official go-ahead from the officials at Transport Bhavanam (the KSRTC Headquarters).

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b, It is now back to off-peak pricing for Kerala SRTC (they did hike it briefly during the summer holidays) so the price I paid was a Bargain. An A/C bus for 460 Rs or so. What a bargain, I realised, the day of departure. That day
This is the "Actual" pricing. KSRTC has the rights to lower fares, but only if Karnataka SRTC allows. (That is a part of the inter-state "bargain").

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c The Kerala SRTC buses turn up well in time, My 1930 bus turned up at its parking b ay by 1950 (a Karnataka SRTC SPECIAL Airavath supposed to leave at 1830 still had not made an appearance by that time).
Isn't 1950 late? Or is it that you wanted to mention 1850? The 1930 bus to TSR (usually RR211 or RR209, rarely RR214) is parked around Platform 14 through the day. They usually do not take it to the "parking ground". At the same time, the 2200 hours bus (RR212 or RR213, sometimes RR214) is parked at the parking grounds, but this bus is brought to the bus station by 1830~1930 hours.

Kerala SRTC "reserves" its spot much in advance - must to the anger of Karnataka SRTC traffic guys.

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Originally Posted by TKMCE View Post
time. Great driving and very courteous staff. This partcular service the 1930 Bangalore- Trichur Kerala SRTC AC bus will always be my first choice now (despite the fact that my final destination is beyond Alwaye).
Thrissur drivers are known for speeding, but driving in control. Earlier, maintenance used to be horrible - but now it seems that guys at Thrissur have changed their ways. They have one of the best maintained fleet among KSRTC depots. One can easily spot the difference when you travel in buses to two different depots one after the other.

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Looks like public transport in Kerala is improving day by day. Well done KSRTC and IR.
Very much! Eversince I shifted to Kerala (in June this year), I have been making it a point to travel by KSRTC, wherever feasible. I travel from Home to College daily (I study at the Pharmacy department of Amrita Institute of Medical Sciences, at Edappally) - and regularly by KSRTC only. On this route, KSRTC started with buses every 20-25 buses back in 2004~2005. Today, they have a bus every 3~5 minutes!
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