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Old 30th October 2009, 17:45   #76
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Originally Posted by NutsNBolts View Post
All DRDO today seems to be busy in is fund grabbing and power grabbing.
Thanks for the support Nuts!! The thread made me delve a little deeper into the working of the DRDO and I am coming up with some pretty interesting facts about the way DRDO goes about it's business. Will post the same when I have all the facts.
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Old 30th October 2009, 19:11   #77
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Welcome neel. For some time I have been involved in their works and have realised that there are plenty of bad eggs whose sole aim seems to construct huge buildings on taxpayers' expense, call them labs or whatever and produce zilch from there. Our deshpremi netas fall for their "we are short of funds, but we are very knowledgeable and capable" line. It will be interesting if you can dig out how mahy attempts to accountability have been scuttled and under what pretext.
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Old 30th October 2009, 20:46   #78
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Originally Posted by NutsNBolts View Post
All DRDO today seems to be busy in is fund grabbing and power grabbing. I really do not see any fruitful results of Research and Development in last 60 years. Like I said, initially there was that feeling of "let's do something for the nation" that did help in getting some good equipment, but with time, even that capability has eroded. The biggest problem, IMHO is that DRDO starts a media campaign with a product announcement, promise the moon (not chandrayan), grab the funds, and then go to sleep over it. The role being played by the DRDO stalwarts in actually undermining the defence preparedness is something that would leave one aghast. Just putting "we can do it" on a file meant for weapon modernisation, easily puts the programme back by a decade.
You spoke my heart out buddy. I feel we as a Nation could have done better with the amount of funds put in DRDO developing defense systems. Looking at current situation our defense readiness and defense systems/equipments that we have I think we are no where compared to our neighbors. Our govt. and highly paid so called defense personals who run the projects in DRDO have made good use of the word "indigenous" to fill their own pockets with our hard owned money. No one is responsible for the money wasted all these years by DRDO and other defense related research bodies. DRDO and the govt. should be held responsible for wasting national money and resources.
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Old 30th October 2009, 21:02   #79
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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
I have to respectfully disagree.

We are discussing locally developed military vehicles/equipment. At best military needs Surveillance Sattelites and missiles. Both at best served via Solid Fuel propelled rockets.
==========
There is a huge reason why almost all of the modern missile systems use Solid Fuel.


Butttttttttt dear sir when did i ever challenge your military knowledge? all i was disputing was the cryogenic engine which according to you is a big failure?

As far as facts go, i think you have spent enough time researching last 2 days and due credits to you, again a buttttt, the literature never becomes the user manual. Atleast not just yet!

Let me just point you to the fact, when it comes to thrust for cc Cryo's rules, which is required for heavy payloads for high altitude launches and hence respected Dr Kalam in his interview mentioned it as upper stage. As simple as i can put for others.

For military application including spy satellites, solid state motor's are good enough. But i dont think our military establishment has its own satellite launch program, does it?

Last edited by Jaggu : 30th October 2009 at 21:21. Reason: Ok let me not get too toucheeeeeeeee
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Old 31st October 2009, 02:53   #80
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Butttttttttt dear sir when did i ever challenge your military knowledge? all i was disputing was the cryogenic engine which according to you is a big failure?

As far as facts go, i think you have spent enough time researching last 2 days and due credits to you, again a buttttt, the literature never becomes the user manual. Atleast not just yet!.......snip........For military application including spy satellites, solid state motor's are good enough. But i dont think our military establishment has its own satellite launch program, does it?
That is what i am trying to put forward. I never said Cyro is a failure because it isn`t, if we even need a re-entry vehicle or a reusable vehicle or goto moon/mars anywhere in the space, Solid Fuel BECOMES failure. But for everything else Cyro is EXPENSIVE, COMPLEX compared to Solid Fuel systems.

I havn`t researched anything online in last 2 days. I studied at RMIT Melbourne and my degree was Bach. of Applied Science with PHYSICS/MATHEMATICS and Information Technology. My major project was in respect similar to control system for Liquid Fuel based rockets. I designed all the hardware while rest of my group took care of the software side. So i have already done my part of the research. Sadly we never got the chance to actually use the system except few simulations.

Any my POINT is (i didn`t wanted to put it like this to stop the can of worms from opening), we are researching and developing Cryo systems before we actually have a military use for it. What we do need is lower orbit surveillance satellites.

If the argument is that we can get money coming in from future launches for commercial purposes. Well then why the hell are we not spending money on developing sattelites and renting them out???? AS a fact broadcasting industry is in dire need of new sattelites with higher throughput since almost all are equiped with older encryption technologies and are can only broadcast SD resolution channels and not many sattelites accept over the air firmware and even then more than 70% can just become floating bricks if firmware update goes wrong.

Build a cheap sattelite which can deliver 1080p broadcasts with NDS security and ISRO will make the money spent before the rental contract begins.

That is my point, but now you can see there are other variables to consider and the whole topic is shifting off military aspect to commercial aspect.

and again for the topic Liquid fuel systems are not a failure but are future but we are developing them for wrong reasons, if someone from ISRO comes and says we are developing Cyro for sending a human being to moon, then its all fine but they are not saying so.

Sorry if i was rude anywhere and just call me buddy, sir makes me feel 60
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Old 31st October 2009, 07:43   #81
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
“VIPER”, the fast moving armoured vehicle is suitably customized for attacking with B7+ proof accessories. It has four side doors, a single rear luggage door, rotating turret & cross-country, a pick up van style for additional and heavy payload. This vehicle carries a total crew complement of Six and is armored to exceed the European B7+ armor.

the viper looks interesting. have they caught the army interest? or is it just a concept car.what engine and chassis is it running on?
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Old 31st October 2009, 12:04   #82
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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
That is what i am trying to put forward. I never said Cyro is a failure because it isn`t, if we even need a re-entry vehicle or a reusable vehicle or goto moon/mars anywhere in the space, Solid Fuel BECOMES failure. But for everything else Cyro is EXPENSIVE, COMPLEX compared to Solid Fuel systems.
Thanks for clarifying that Cryo is not a failure. But your logic of usage is still off mark. The payload is the key word here and thats very important for a nations launch vehicle program. Insat's series is one classic example, our dependency on costly outsourced launch, needed to be reduced and cryo's were the only logical way out. And as far as your earlier reference to failures and complex seals etc, India has already mastered it, atleast to a great extend in a very cost effective way. The failures that you referred to were NOT caused by these complex tech but rather silly oversights.

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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
I havn`t researched anything online in last 2 days. I studied at RMIT Melbourne
=====
Sadly we never got the chance to actually use the system except few simulations.
Apologize for that, i also felt i went overboard BUT all i can say is that, i quoted real life scenario's here, which i am aware of from very reliable practicing sources.

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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
Any my POINT is (i didn`t wanted to put it like this to stop the can of worms from opening), we are researching and developing Cryo systems before we actually have a military use for it. What we do need is lower orbit surveillance satellites.
Its need of the hour, i agree.

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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
If the argument is that we can get money coming in from future launches for commercial purposes. Well then why the hell are we not spending money on developing sattelites and renting them out????
==========
Build a cheap sattelite which can deliver 1080p broadcasts with NDS security and ISRO will make the money spent before the rental contract begins.

That is my point, but now you can see there are other variables to consider and the whole topic is shifting off military aspect to commercial aspect.
Who says we arent? As far as i know we are already doing this as well as making money by launching satellites for other countries. Its not in future but already being done, atleast thats what this is all about Antrix Corporation Limited - Home Page

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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
and again for the topic Liquid fuel systems are not a failure but are future but we are developing them for wrong reasons, if someone from ISRO comes and says we are developing Cyro for sending a human being to moon, then its all fine but they are not saying so.
But how can they say that in public no seriously i dont think any country will reveal all the details in public, thanks to politics and commercial interests.
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Old 31st October 2009, 13:25   #83
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Thanks for clarifying that Cryo is not a failure. But your logic of usage is still off mark. The payload is the key word here and thats very important for a nations launch vehicle program. Insat's series is one classic example, our dependency on costly outsourced launch, needed to be reduced and cryo's were the only logical way out. And as far as your earlier reference to failures and complex seals etc, India has already mastered it, atleast to a great extend in a very cost effective way. The failures that you referred to were NOT caused by these complex tech but rather silly oversights.
I am just going to give up on this topic, Lets start some other topic.

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Who says we arent? As far as i know we are already doing this as well as making money by launching satellites for other countries. Its not in future but already being done, atleast thats what this is all about Antrix Corporation Limited - Home Page
I again disagree respectfully. Requirement is MPEG4 compressed streams with NDS support which requires its own Processing core which needs to be quite powerful and throughput need is quite high. Somewhere along the lines of 4gbps. No non-military sattelite outthere is available for this at this time. Hence cable TV companies are taking a loss by either using Non-NDS systems both over cable and sattelite. Where NDS systems is applied it has proven to be without cracks and so far only 2 known exploits are available to decbvode cable TV signals and both are expensive than having all the platinum packages for upto 3yrs in any country (Uk being cheapest, 40pounts a month).

NDS is a quite a different system in its own. It needs its own processing unit both at the source and at the receiver end and upgrades can be done on the fly. Biggest benefit being, if NDs gets cracked in the future with easy (very improbable). System can be replaced overnight with another encryption technology. Apparently when NDS was released, secondary encryption was put in place for standby.

As far as i know, there is not even a single sattelite that Support NDS encryption.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
But how can they say that in public no seriously i dont think any country will reveal all the details in public, thanks to politics and commercial interests.
Well president of ISRO needs to come out and take responsibility and say we will put an indian on the moon by 2015 and we need xxxxx amount to do so and ISRO needs to do it. ISRO can get it accomplish since it has both the technology and know-how.

Sorry if i was rude anywhere.

Cheers
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Old 31st October 2009, 14:33   #84
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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
I am just going to give up on this topic, Lets start some other topic.
Me too!

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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
I again disagree respectfully.
========
As far as i know, there is not even a single sattelite that Support NDS encryption.
Sorry i was referring to commercial angle, not specifics of any broadcasting.

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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
Well president of ISRO needs to come out and take responsibility and say we will put an indian on the moon by 2015 and we need xxxxx amount to do so and ISRO needs to do it. ISRO can get it accomplish since it has both the technology and know-how.
Well why send a man on the moon, if we can get the same value by sending couple of gadgets/robots? at fraction of a cost and no risks Anyways lets leave it for ISRO and its Chairman to decide this for now.

cheers
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Old 31st October 2009, 22:20   #85
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The Hindu : Andhra Pradesh News : MPVs handed over to Army

Quote:
MPVs handed over to Army

Staff Reporter

Mine protected vehicles better in capability compared to the ones imported




First batch of the Army version of MPVs named ‘Yukthirath’

Army ordered 327 MPVs and the numbers could go up constantly


— Photo: MOHD ARIF

latest addition: The mine protected vehicles which were handed over to the Army by Union Minister of State for Defence M.M. Pallam Raju at the Ordnance Factory in Medak on Friday.


YEDDUMAILARAM (MEDAK DT.): Union Minister of State for Defence M.M. Pallam Raju handed over a fleet of 14 improved mine protected vehicles (MPV) to the Indian Army in the Ordnance Factory here on Friday.

The fleet was handed over to Deputy Director General of Infantry Battalion Brig. B.S. Chauhan at a function.

It was the first batch of the Army version of MPVs named ‘Yukthirath’. Speaking on the occasion, the Minister stressed the need for modernisation of armed forces as new weapons and technologies were coming into the weaponry of armed forces around the world. Increasing instability in neighbouring countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and Nepal was pressing for speedy modernisation.

Roll out of the improved MPVs was no doubt a proof of the capabilities of the Ordnance Factory but there was lot of scope for improvement in the work culture on the shaft floors. Army had already ordered for 327 MPVs and the numbers could go up constantly as the government was ready to pump in necessary funds, the Minister stated. The MPVs were certified as better in capability compared to the similar imported vehicles from South Africa.

Stating that self-reliance and mechanisation of forces was the ministry’s goal, Mr. Pallam Raju said the country was meeting only 30 per cent of its armed forces’ needs like vehicles, ammunition, guns and artillery indigenously and the rest was being imported.

Zaheerabad MP Suresh Shetkar, Karimnagar MP Ponnam Prabhakar, MLC Bhupal Reddy, Zilla Parishad Chairperson of Medak M. Balaiah, General Manager of the Ordnance Factory R.S. Sodhi and others were present on the occasion.


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Old 1st November 2009, 20:24   #86
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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
And on what basis do you say this may I ask? If you want to say that most of the reports of equipment failure that you come across in the media involves imported machinery, well the answer to that is simple-that's what we use!But then, do a quantitative analysis of MTBF of indigenous stuff. It will be a revelation for you.
So finally you have agreed that Indian Defense force solely rely on foreign equipment, so kindly tell me how can you or any one else claim that equipment made by DRDO are inferior to those bought from outside why you haven't used then in adequate numbers for long period ?

And for what purpose should i analyze the MTBF when there is hardly anything in Defense Forces inventory to compare those to.

And if not the bribes, then what is making the Army delay the comparative trial of Indian Arjuna and Russian Bhishama tanks ?

Due to Army's reluctance and DRDO's eagreness to comparative trials I have to come to conclusion that there is corruption involved which is making Army to declare a tank inferior to their favorite.


Because you have bought upon the opinion of some MP's, kindly read the following :

Quote:
What is clear is that the MoD is happy with the Arjun. According to the Parliamentary Standing Committee for Defense's last annual report for 2007-08, the MoD testified before the Committee that the Arjun tank was:

• “A product unique in its class”, and “an improved system over the T-72.”
• “Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West”.
• “Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)”.
• “Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem.”
But again those are politicians, we need the expert opinion of those who will use it on the daily basis not those who will accept bribes. Kindly also go through following :-

Quote:
Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts, “I’ve spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment)… who have been testing the tank… I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun. I said, you’ve driven this tank and you’ve driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And I’ve found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank.”
And last but not least the expert opinion of the maker of the worlds best tank, Merkava:-

Quote:
Experts at the seminar — including Israeli tank legend, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan, who designed that country’s successful Merkava tank — pointed out that tank design is evolutionary, each design building upon the previous one.
BTW, if this T-90 is so awesome then why is China not interested in it ? And kindly don't suggest China have more clout over Russia.



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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
I wish that you actually saw how the taxpayers money was not being efficiently utilised when it comes to the DRDO. Let us see what an ex member of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence had to say about the DRDO!
I am sorry I can only see the corruption in Army which is wasting Indian tax payers money to buy a tank whose Fire control system failed in Indian heat, which got no other buyer than India. While Indian tank which has been praised by not only the Parliamentary Standing committee and the maker of the world's best tank but also by the Defense personnel who will use the tanks on the daily basis.

BTW how much more relevant is an article from 1989 and another by a parliamentarian whose only claim to fame is that he is son of some big politician and the opinion of Government's accountant CAG in comparison to expert opinion of the soldiers who will use tank on daily basis, Parliamentary standing committee and the maker of the world's best tank.

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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
I would request you to kindly elaborate on "what all the labs have delivered till now."
Untitled Document

That is one example, but if you cannot see on your own then it is futile to elaborate any further.


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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
You do seem a bit paranoid about "bribes", but jokes apart, the competence of our scientists is probably beyond doubt since NASA, DARPA, Silicon Valley etc is essentially run by Indian scientists. However, strangely, in an organisation called DRDO, they seem to have lost their way. We need to perhaps analyse this peculiar phenomenon! Is it the scientists who are to blame or perhaps it is the way DRDO is organised and run that is to blame? I think that it is the latter and this problem has been acknowledged by none other than the CAG! Read this :
So think I am paranoid to suggest that there is corruption when it comes to defense purchases ?

And I am sorry as long as Defense Forces will rely solely on equipment bought from outside and will run away from comparative trials, their opinion on DRDO's competency is as good as a corrupt official caught red handed taking bribes.

BTW do you have any idea how little that is spent on Indian Scientific establishments compared to NASA and DARPA, if you would have know you wouldn't have made any comparison.

I find it quite prejudiced of Defense Forces to declare that DRDO is incompetent and that because they are not run properly when the people who have run DRDO have also run ISRO, especially when they cannot see corruption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Malfunctions will take place in any thing mechanical. However, it is the MTBF that becomes crucial, and, it is here that the problems with the DRDO stuff come in.
Again you speak of MTBF and declare DRDO's stuff inferior when you yourself have agreed that Defense forces have solely relied on equipment bought from outside.

Now as you have quoted CAG and are mentioning MBTF, kindly go through the following CAG report that would be an eye opener to those who have championed the cause of reliance on foreign equipment have lauded their superior quality and MBTF.

Quote:
New Delhi: The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in his latest report has painted a bleak picture of India's defence preparedness.


The report, tabled in Lok Sabha on Friday, says half of India's submarine fleet is in disrepair and a grossly inadequate, three decade-old radar network has left the country vulnerable to enemy attack.


The stinging CAG report states that no more than 48 per cent of India's submarine fleet is available for waging war, should India be attacked.

Seems that Defense forces are doing a very good</sarcasm> job of securing the nation by relying foreign equipment which are mostly out of business and are needing parts which have to be bought from outside.

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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
According to the latest reports, the life cycle costs of the Mirage is amongst the lowest. So really cant be called expensive or exorbitant!
Quote:
The reason: a breakdown in India’s long-running negotiations with French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has flatly refused to reduce its quote of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price --- Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) per aircraft --- unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.
Ministry of Defense disagrees with you, and goes on to show how reliance on foreign equipment have made India poorer and vulnerable.

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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
I have no problems with our forces using indigenous equipment- just as long as it fits their requirements! Unfortunately, as of now, that has hardly happened with indigenous stuff. And those that have fit the bill, have been accepted by our forces. If you find it tokenism, well that is sad. What would you have the forces do? Buy anything, anyway, just because it is indigenous?
Yes buy anything because it is Indigenous, same as China-America-Russia-France, why is it so hard for our Indian defense forces when other can do so without complaining ?

And going by how well the reliance on foreign equipment have turned out (48 per cent availability anyone ?) Defense forces will find not find many supporters which they will suggest that equipment which have found no buyer other than India is better than the one(which army is running away from testing against their favorite) which have been lauded by not only the Indian Soldiers who would use those tank in battle field and also the maker of the world best tank.

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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
And what double standard do you speak of? If you go over the Nepra accident report, you will realise that the incident happened because a sailor violated SOPs leading to the release of the fire extinguisher. Any violation will lead to accidents!
Keep in mind that Nerpa was not the first incident which took life of all the personnel on board, Russian submarine Kursk explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia << 118 personnel died ( so much for their superior quality)

There are two theories for the cause on this incidents :-

Quote:
Two principal explanations of the disaster have been advanced by naval experts and the media - that there was a failure of the equipment, or that the accident was caused by human error.
[edit]
Equipment failure

The LOKh fire suppression system aboard the Nerpa was reportedly of a new type that had not previously been used aboard any Russian submarine. Earlier versions of the LOKh system only operate under manual control from the duty shift console. The new system installed on the Nerpa could also operate in automatic mode, responding to smoke and rises in compartment temperature and activating individually in each compartment. According to the testimony of an engineer from the Zvezda shipyard, this had malfunctioned before while the submarine was being readied for its sea trials. Some commentators speculated that the system could have been accidentally activated by cigarette smoke.[11]
[edit]
Human error

On 10 November, a Russian Navy statement blamed the disaster on an "unsanctioned operation" of the fire suppression system aboard the Nerpa.[4] Three days later, naval investigators announced that a crewman, named unofficially as Dmitry Grobov, had turned on the system "without permission or any particular grounds". According to reports in the Russian media, Grobov believed that a local control unit was not connected. Out of boredom he started playing with it. The submarine local control units are protected by five digit access numbers but during sea trials the access codes were penciled on the units. The seaman increased readings up from the original value of 30 °C to 78 °C, causing the control system to believe that there was a fire on board. The control unit requested permission to start the fire suppression system. Grobov granted permission, possibly without realizing what he was doing.[12][13] He was charged and would face up to seven years in prison if convicted.

Colleagues expressed skepticism, describing the accused crewman as an experienced and skilled specialist.[14] Several commentators suggested that the crewman was being treated as a scapegoat.[15] A number of retired naval officers told the business daily Kommersant that they doubted that Grobov was solely to blame, as it was impossible for one person to activate the system due to it requiring multiple levels of confirmation before it can be activated.[16]
If Russians would have accepted that it was due to equipment failure, that would have destroyed their already poor reputation. That is why the retired military personnel themselves believe that Grobov was made a scapegoat.

It may seem to you that it is plausible for Grobov to play with a switch that could take life of all the personnel on Nerpa, but I find it quite hard to digest.


And in this case as the personnel are not alive just like Wg Cdr Khanna, we will never know what really happened in two incidents. But I find it quite surprising that in one case you have put blame on the equipment error and on other on the Human error.

And this is what I mean by double standard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Again because they were able to pinpoint the fault and rectify it!!
If according to you it was human fault, then how can they rectify it ? And it is surprising that Defense forces cannot show same similar attitude for Indian products.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
And why is it in bad taste? Reality bites? And by the way, I am not suggesting that the death was caused by DRDO's incompetence, I am stating it! Please read the report on the crash and be better informed! In the case of the DRDO projects, most of the questions go unanswered-we still do not know why the fuse, which led to the death of Wg Cdr Khanna, malfunctioned!
It is in bad taste to talk about their family, wife toddler etc. Especially when you are blaming DRDO for supporting Defense forced EOL equipment.

Before you go ahead and blame them, tell me why can't Defense forces find someone else to fix their EOL equipment ?

It is quite prejudiced of you to blame DRDO for supporting old EOL inventory which is in poor shape because the OEM have stopped supporting it. And rather than realizing that this is what happens when one relies on equipment bought from outside you are blaming DRDO.

If Defense forces are looking for precision and quality then they should have relied on OEM, and when they are not doing then Defense forces are to blame for buying such trash and they better make do with whatever they have got and that will certainly not have quality of OEM as no one can be as familiar to equipment as OEM else they can go find some one else to blame. Quit blaming others for own mistake

Both the Saras and the ASP we designed and manufactured by the same group of scientists who were killed in the crashes. Besides them, test pilots and test engineers of the IAF also had to lay down their lives!

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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
So nice of you to belittle the contribution and sacrifice of those Indian scientists who lost their life while trying to secure India.
But what about ASP, which was inside the aircaft flown by IAF pilots, how can you blame Scientists for that ?

I presume that you also have similar opinion on Pierre-Marie Curie and Homi J. Bhabha ?

BTW, I have found this statement of yours very objectionable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Anmol, please don't make your assumptions sound like the truth! What poor record are you talking about? Please provide concrete details.
How about Jaguar ? How about 48% availability of submarines ? How about the fact that Mirages most likely wont be upgraded by their OEM and Defense forces will again find DRDO to fix their mistakes.

BTW, I do like Mirages still I thin that anything Indigenous is better than anything bought from outside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
The MiG 21 is the most successful fighter in the world, and this is as per the number of sales of the fighter and as per the Discovery channel, in it's " The Worlds Best" series it puts the MiG 21 at the 2nd or 3rd spot! So the point you make elludes me. If you are basing your emotions on the media hype around the MiG 21 crashes in the recent past, well, obviously, whatever plagued the IAF at that time has been addressed since the reports on such crashes have reduced drastically. And if you are suggesting that crashes just should not happen, well, that would be asking for the impossible! Even your cycle breaks down from time to time!!
I am amazed that you find these incidents that take Defense personnel as "hype", if these were so good then Defense forces won't be looking for replacement.

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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
As far as the Akula goes, read the article on them in this site:....I really would have no problem with our forces having a sub this good!!
IMHO I too think this is an opportunity that shouldn't be missed as there aren't many(or any) nuclear subs available in the market, and we are seriously short on those.

So as long as Indigenous are not available there is nothing wrong to buy from outside but once we have Indian alternative then there can be no excuse(other than bribes) for continuing the reliance on foreign equipment.

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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Do read reports on Chinese weapons being used by other countries. Last known , the Pakis were having a not so smooth time with them as was the case with other users. So the answer to your question, based on reports by other users, is that the efficacy of Chinese equipment is debatable.

If as you suggest that their best tank are inferior then why do you want to buy "best"(also very debatable ?). Do you believe that we have money growing on trees ?

And there is a reason China and almost all big power buy indigenous equipment, because those cost almost nothing(money remain in economy, generate employment) and also those are easier to support and can be bought in big numbers.

An due to continuous development this help develop good capability to churn out world class equipment .

And this is what I want Defense forces to do and end their addiction of bribes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
If you read about warfare, you will find that numbers will always have an important role to play. However, all things being equal, it is the party with better weapons that will be victorious. In the case of a numerically superior adversary (India V/s China), the only way to neutralize the numerical superiority is by better and more effective weapons.
I am sorry, but China is in position to churn out as many of its own tank as possible as they money is spent in economy and generates employment. I do not understand how buying from outside no matter superior(very much debatable looking at its failure to fire Indian heat and no other buyer willing to purchase it other than India and Army's reluctance to make in go through comparative trials) or not can compensate for that.

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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
It is very hard to understand my friend for the logic you talk of is seriously flawed!! The nuclear weapon is not a first use weapon! It is termed as a "Weapon of Deterrence" which implies that it will be used only when all else fails. And that implies that the conventional forces have to be able to ward off any threat and ensure that an occasion which requires nuclear conflict does not arrive!!

I am sorry but it is your logic which seriously flawed !!!!1!!111!1‽, Nuclear bombs prevent Nuclear powers to enter into even small conflict no matter hos sour relations may be because even small conflicts can end up in Nuclear Conflict. I don't care whether you think this is flawed or not.

I have got example of USA and Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Good question! Maybe the DRDO needs to deliberate on this and find a few answers for themselves!!
I don't think they need any deliberation, it is Defense forced who need to introspect why they don't like something when they are running away from comparative trials, which have been likened by the Defense personell who used it and will use it in case of war and also by the developer of world biggest tank.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
If you get your facts right, then you will realise that procurement is carried out by the GOI and the forces have no role to play other than specifying the QRs and carrying out the testing of the products. SO the point about "world class bribes" is not understood. Also from bribes to dog food? You are loosing me here!
Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, you do know what is his role right ? Dogfooding is done so that equipment can be tested, which China-America-Russia-France are doing when they buy their own stuff hence are eating their own dog food.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Yup! The Army must give their inputs...or at least die trying! And you feel so sorry for the scientists in the Saras and ASP projects!!
Can you tell me how can anyone die without even using it ?

I seriously have no sympathy for those who suggest that it is fine to die in MiG-21s and Nerpa, but it is not fine to buy Indian products because there is possibility that it would be involved in some sort of fatal failure.

I call this double standard, and find corruption to be cause of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
The DRDO dosen't have to recover anything! Its funded by the GOI. Duh!!
I am sorry but that is wrong on so many levels that i cannot even begin forget that it will be completely OT. Kindly refer to someone with economic background.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
And the Army is buying so many because some of the issues have been resolved. I'm sure that if the same is done in other equiptments, they will buy the others as well!! BTW, buy is a wrong term to use. The GOI will purchase them and the Army will accept it.
I don't quite understand the logic, if some issues are resolved then aren't the rest not going the usage of the equipment and if yes then what kind of ridiculous logic is to buy something which have issues ?

And if these issues are minor ones, then why are Defense Forces are hellbent on buying Bhishma and making only token purchase of Arjuna ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
If I am not wrong, it is the same uncompromising attitude of the Armed forces that led to the two deals. Had this not been the case, the IAF would still be flying the MiG 21-T75 and the Navy would still have been waiting for its subs!!
I am happy that you like MiG31 MKI, but also am confused as you seem to like something manufactured by the same people who you have termed as incompetent.

This is what I find very shocking, whether it is MKI or Brahmos whatever marketed by Russians (though manufactured by Indians) is acceptable to defense forces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Good question and also the point that I have been making. Something is wrong in the way DRDO is being run.
It is quite amazing that you can come to such conclusion and blame DRDO and not the corruption in equipment purchase.

p.s. Due to our inability to change each others mind or come to a conclusion, I think it is becoming a chore to carry on with this discussion. I hope we can agree to disagree.

Last edited by anmol2k4 : 1st November 2009 at 20:36.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 02:52   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
So finally you have agreed that Indian Defense force solely rely on foreign equipment, so kindly tell me how can you or any one else claim that equipment made by DRDO are inferior to those bought from outside why you haven't used then in adequate numbers for long period ?

And for what purpose should i analyze the MTBF when there is hardly anything in Defense Forces inventory to compare those to.
There is enough "equipment" being used for an informed person to compare MTBFs. It is only after using the equipment that this conclusion has been reached. However, I am not in a position to divulge all the details of the equipment here for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
And if not the bribes, then what is making the Army delay the comparative trial of Indian Arjuna and Russian Bhishama tanks ?

Due to Army's reluctance and DRDO's eagreness to comparative trials I have to come to conclusion that there is corruption involved which is making Army to declare a tank inferior to their favorite.
Since the start of this debate, I have been doing some research on the Arjun and have come to the logical conclusion the the Arjun MBT today is a formidable platform. As you have correctly brought out, the DRDO has been able to rectify many (not all) of the observations of the Army and probably, this is the reason for the MBT being accepted today.

However, during the course of my research, I came upon some amazing facts about the Arjun MBT. As the title of this thread implies, we are talking about "indigenous" equipment here. But I was pretty surprised with the indigenous content of the Arjun!
1. Engine: 1400 HP German MTU diesel
2. FCS: Based on the Marconi SFCS600- British, linked to a Barr & Stroud Tank Laser Sight-British and IR8 Thermal Imager in the initial versions. In the current version, the FCS has been developed by BEL in conjunction with Elbit of Israel

So, lo-and -behold, the "indigenous" MBT runs on an imported powerplant and the FCS, the heart of the MBT is also from a foreign vendor!!

All in all imported components used in the Arjun rose from 27% in the 1987 to 60% in PPS. So much for "indigenisation"! The point here is this : Even now, when we have our Swadeshi Arjun, if any if the vendors decide that they are not happy, the MBT goes bust. And we payed all the money that has gone into the project for what? Just for the DRDO to buy the goodies and integrate then to give us the Arjun. Even the integration was shoddy which was the reason why the initial hit rates were 20-30% which has now increased to 90%.

As per Mallika Joseph the Assistant Director of Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies: "While the DRDO does deserve credit for the project, the army too could be given some credit, for it can be argued that if not for the uncompromising and scathing criticism from the Army, the Ajun would have ended up as an obsolete T-80 tank and not a state-ofthe-art next generation tank." So, evidently, the Army had a role to play in the standards that Arjun possesses today!!


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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
BTW, if this T-90 is so awesome then why is China not interested in it ? And kindly don't suggest China have more clout over Russia.
Ask the Chinese!!



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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
And I am sorry as long as Defense Forces will rely solely on equipment bought from outside and will run away from comparative trials, their opinion on DRDO's competency is as good as a corrupt official caught red handed taking bribes.
Firstly, this is probably the first time that a comparitive trial is being carried out- the reason- it is the first time that the DRDO has come out with something that can be compared, which in itself says a lot about the DRDOs competence!
And secondly, as I have stated before, the Armed forces have never shunned the DRDO.Whenever an equipment has been provided by the DRDO that has met the requirements of the Armed Forces, they have been readily embraced. It is only when something does not meet it's requirements that the Armed Forces have said no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
BTW do you have any idea how little that is spent on Indian Scientific establishments compared to NASA and DARPA, if you would have know you wouldn't have made any comparison.
But again, look at the results that DARPA and NASA have given for the investments. Once you look at it that way, you'll realise that DRDO is actually no comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
I find it quite prejudiced of Defense Forces to declare that DRDO is incompetent and that because they are not run properly when the people who have run DRDO have also run ISRO, especially when they cannot see corruption.
Please get your facts right. ISRO and DRDO are not run by the same people. They are two completely different organisations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Again you speak of MTBF and declare DRDO's stuff inferior when you yourself have agreed that Defense forces have solely relied on equipment bought from outside.
As I have already stated, there is enough "equipment" being used for an informed person to compare MTBFs. It is only after using the equipment that this conclusion has been reached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Now as you have quoted CAG and are mentioning MBTF, kindly go through the following CAG report that would be an eye opener to those who have championed the cause of reliance on foreign equipment have lauded their superior quality and MBTF."


Seems that Defense forces are doing a very good</sarcasm> job of securing the nation by relying foreign equipment which are mostly out of business and are needing parts which have to be bought from outside.
Misinterpretation of facts. The Navy has been crying for subs for a long time time. It is the GOI that has not responded in time. In fact the CAG report was a wake up call to the GOI for neglecting the plight of the Navy.

Take a closer look at the sub fleet of the Navy and its vintage. The reasons for frequent breakdowns will be evident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Ministry of Defense disagrees with you, and goes on to show how reliance on foreign equipment have made India poorer and vulnerable.
Again out of context. I have brought out the life cycle costs of the Mirage, not the cost of upgradation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Yes buy anything because it is Indigenous, same as China-America-Russia-France, why is it so hard for our Indian defense forces when other can do so without complaining ?
How easy it is for you to make a statement like that! After all your life is not in line!
And again, the Chinese, Americans, French and the Russians themselves do not buy anything that is indigenous. They buy only those equipment that fit their bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
If Russians would have accepted that it was due to equipment failure, that would have destroyed their already poor reputation. That is why the retired military personnel themselves believe that Grobov was made a scapegoat.

It may seem to you that it is plausible for Grobov to play with a switch that could take life of all the personnel on Nerpa, but I find it quite hard to digest.

Yup! And now you are the Expert! Conspiracy theories are all nice, but kindly remember that theories are all they are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
And in this case as the personnel are not alive just like Wg Cdr Khanna, we will never know what really happened in two incidents. But I find it quite surprising that in one case you have put blame on the equipment error and on other on the Human error.

In the case of Wg Cdr Khanna, the facts have been put on the table and it is the fuse that was to blame.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
If according to you it was human fault, then how can they rectify it ? And it is surprising that Defense forces cannot show same similar attitude for Indian products.
You do not even have the vaguest idea of what the Defence Forces are all about. So it would be nice, or rather proper, for you not to comment on the attitude of the Forces.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
It is in bad taste to talk about their family, wife toddler etc. Especially when you are blaming DRDO for supporting Defense forced EOL equipment.

Before you go ahead and blame them, tell me why can't Defense forces find someone else to fix their EOL equipment ?
Again factually wrong. The DRDO does not support the Forces in the maintenance of it's equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
It is quite prejudiced of you to blame DRDO for supporting old EOL inventory which is in poor shape because the OEM have stopped supporting it. And rather than realizing that this is what happens when one relies on equipment bought from outside you are blaming DRDO.
So please impress upon the DRDO to provide the replacements for the EOL equipment in time. It is the DRDO who promise the moon but deliver nothing that the Forces have EOL equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
If Defense forces are looking for precision and quality then they should have relied on OEM, and when they are not doing then Defense forces are to blame for buying such trash and they better make do with whatever they have got and that will certainly not have quality of OEM as no one can be as familiar to equipment as OEM else they can go find some one else to blame. Quit blaming others for own mistake
As per the Defence Procurement Guidelines, when ever the Armed forces require something, the DRDO is first asked if they can provide it. The moment they say yes, there is no outside vendors that are invited. So, they cannot go back to the OEM. And as always, the goods never come on time!

And what "trash" are you talking about? Kindly elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
But what about ASP, which was inside the aircaft flown by IAF pilots, how can you blame Scientists for that ?
I'm getting tired of saying this, but, again factually wrong! The ASP crash happened due to the external radome breaking up in flight. The radome was designed by DRDO!


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
BTW, I have found this statement of yours very objectionable.
So please object to it, but using facts for your defence and not merely rhetoric!


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
How about Jaguar ? How about 48% availability of submarines ? How about the fact that Mirages most likely wont be upgraded by their OEM and Defense forces will again find DRDO to fix their mistakes.
What about the Jaguar? Last known, it was stellar strike fighter!

The reasons for the poor serviceability of the subs has already been explained.

And as far as the Mirage upgrade goes, it is stuck up for a clause in the MOD which says that any upgrade that costs more than 50% of the cost of the equipment will not be authorised. Hence the problem is political and the forces have little to do with it! And to suggest that DRDO will be called in to upgrade the Mirage?!! Let them build a proper fighter first!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
BTW, I do like Mirages still I thin that anything Indigenous is better than anything bought from outside.
So do I, provided that I get what I need!

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
if these were so good then Defense forces won't be looking for replacement.
Nothing lasts for ever. The equipment was bought decades ago. Surely you want your Forces to be better equipped!!

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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
IMHO I too think this is an opportunity that shouldn't be missed as there aren't many(or any) nuclear subs available in the market, and we are seriously short on those.
Cheers!! We finally agree on something!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
If as you suggest that their best tank are inferior then why do you want to buy "best"(also very debatable ?). Do you believe that we have money growing on trees ?

And there is a reason China and almost all big power buy indigenous equipment, because those cost almost nothing(money remain in economy, generate employment) and also those are easier to support and can be bought in big numbers.

An due to continuous development this help develop good capability to churn out world class equipment .
You do have a point, but again, the only point of contention for me is that the forces should get the kind of stuff they require. Any thing should not be thrust upon them in the name of indigenisation.

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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
And this is what I want Defense forces to do and end their addiction of bribes.
A very serious allegation!! And how do you quantify this statement sir?


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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
I am sorry, but China is in position to churn out as many of its own tank as possible
And do what with those tanks in the China/India context? Use it to climb over the Himalayas? Get real! And read about warfare!

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
I am sorry but it is your logic which seriously flawed !!!!1!!111!1‽, Nuclear bombs prevent Nuclear powers to enter into even small conflict no matter hos sour relations may be because even small conflicts can end up in Nuclear Conflict. I don't care whether you think this is flawed or not.
At the cost of repetition, read about warfare!


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Dogfooding is done so that equipment can be tested, which China-America-Russia-France are doing when they buy their own stuff hence are eating their own dog food.
Not sure about Russia and China, but in America and France, the equpment supplied to the forces are tested by the manufacturers themselves and not by the forces. Dont see why the same cannot apply to the DRDO!


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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Can you tell me how can anyone die without even using it ?
It is only when people have died that reservations have come up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
I seriously have no sympathy for those who suggest that it is fine to die in MiG-21s and Nerpa, but it is not fine to buy Indian products because there is possibility that it would be involved in some sort of fatal failure.
Not sure of how many are looking for your sympathy, but, don't you think that the chances of the possibility needs to be examined before putting the lives of people at risk. And this is where the MTBF factor that I talked about earlier comes in.

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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
I am sorry but that is wrong on so many levels that i cannot even begin forget that it will be completely OT. Kindly refer to someone with economic background.
Having referred to someone with economic background and not having found an answer, I would request you to enlighten me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
And if these issues are minor ones, then why are Defense Forces are hellbent on buying Bhishma and making only token purchase of Arjuna ?
The Army is already in the lookout for its next generation MBT which it hopes to have by 2020. This could be a reason for the Army not wanting to induct the Arjun in large numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
I am happy that you like MiG31 MKI, but also am confused as you seem to like something manufactured by the same people who you have termed as incompetent.
Firstly, it is the Su 30 MKI (FACTS??), and, secondly, the DRDO has nothing to do with it. Thank God!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
This is what I find very shocking, whether it is MKI or Brahmos whatever marketed by Russians (though manufactured by Indians) is acceptable to defense forces.
The defence forces try and get what they require. If they get it from the Russians, then so be it!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
p.s. Due to our inability to change each others mind or come to a conclusion, I think it is becoming a chore to carry on with this discussion. I hope we can agree to disagree.
The point is, it is very hard to convince someone whose basis of argument is rhetoric. See the facts, maybe things will change.

Last edited by neel385 : 2nd November 2009 at 03:01.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 09:57   #88
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Wow, this is beginning to sound like indo-pak war. However a lot more interesting! I can't remember how many times I have changed sides so far. . Anmol has raised a lot of convincing arguments supporting DRDO and efforts at indigenisation, however right now I would be more comfortable to keep my egg basket in Neel's capable hands.
With regards to MBT Arjun, it doesn't matter how much (or less) indigenous it may be (60% or so as per above post), it is still better than 100% of T 90 (as they are equally capable and Arjun is cheaper), isn't it. But since the army is looking for next gen MBT by 2020, how many are they plannning to buy now? (Is it going to be available? by whom? , Is DRDO aware about this requirement?).

Somewhere in the earlier posts I read that the sale of Arjun to army would be a morale booster to the scientists/ designers/ engineers at DRDO and they would work harder to improve their products. Well why don't we just tell them that their product is being bought by army in hundreds! .Hopefully they will get back to work with renewed vigour and create a world class product.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 10:48   #89
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Originally Posted by pamiboy View Post
With regards to MBT Arjun, it doesn't matter how much (or less) indigenous it may be (60% or so as per above post), it is still better than 100% of T 90 (as they are equally capable and Arjun is cheaper), isn't it. But since the army is looking for next gen MBT by 2020, how many are they plannning to buy now? (Is it going to be available? by whom? , Is DRDO aware about this requirement?).
The Arjun is not exactly cheap! After the long delays and the overshooting of budget estimates the Arjun now comes for $4 Mn a piece, whereas the T90 comes for $2.8 Mn a piece. Again, all new purchases the the GOI is making for the armed forces have a Transfer of Technology clause. Hence, even though a few are brought off the shelf, the rest are manufactured in India itself. So even though the equipment is 100% imported, the technology with them is 100% imported as well thereby ensuring that we are able to produce, maintain and upgrade the same. Same is the case with the T-90 which is now being locally manufactured as the Bhisma.

The Army is in the process of finalising its QRs for its next gen MBT. There is some talk of a joint design and production between the Russians and Indians.As of now, the Army has ordered 124 Arjun MBTs.

Anmol is sure to smell a "bribe" here!!

Last edited by neel385 : 2nd November 2009 at 11:02.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 10:58   #90
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This is my first post, and what a great way to start by being able to know more on defense vehicles.I love this forum. From Defense vehicles to Tanks, this thread has gone in the right direction.Arjun being on my watch list always.proud of Arjun.
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