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Old 16th November 2009, 20:59   #61
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In newer models its due to Turbochargers.

Jake brake has distinct sound of blubber, you may hear commonly on highways.

Air horn does not need air supply from tank or any source, it has its own motor/fan that produces air to pass through different vents, hence the sound.
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Old 16th November 2009, 23:45   #62
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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
You don't want to jerk with the clutch,
As an owner, I do not want. But that is not the case with drivers.

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Originally Posted by condor View Post
Pulling a lever is far less work than engaging a gear to switch off the engine - and far more smoother too. Dont see any reason for drivers to do that. .
The lever is positioned at awkward points.

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And I haven't : have always seen them pull the level to switch off the engine and never use the gears for that. I guess you will know how much of a jerk will be caused by stalling like that.
Actually, this will be very smooth. Passengers will never notice. And sensible drivers do use the lever, rather than stall the engine.

And afaict, the switching off mechanism is very simple in both AL and Tatas. Have a second look at the fuel pump in the pic above. The rear end of the pump is called the "governor". The accellerator is connected to this part of the pump. Somewhere inside the governor, there is a mechanism which senses when the accel. goes in the reverse direction from the idle position. ALhas simply connected this mechanism to a different lever rather than the accel. rod. This lever is connected using a cable to the "lever" on the engine's bonnet.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I guess the loud sneeze heard on trucks sometimes, esp when they are climbing mountains at high rpm is the excess air being released?
Speaking of air, if cars had air tanks, we could easily install those el cheapo air horns which can be heard far away
Yes. And there are two kinds of them - these valves. One kind does not allow further air to accumulate once the pressures reaches a certain level. That is, till pressure goes down below a threshold limit. On the second kind, the sneezing happens every few minutes, as air is released as and when pressure builds up.

Here, the drivers used to call it "breaking wind". ;-( and that is why I did not mention this earlier.

And as pointed out, some kinds of electric air horns are available.

Speaking of air compressors on cars, I have seen quite a few taxi ambys with "air brake" written on them.

Last edited by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR : 16th November 2009 at 23:48.
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Old 17th November 2009, 12:17   #63
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Trivia :- Has anyone wondered why Tata used to have ridiculously high engine covers inside the bus in the earlier 1210/1510 models and later had sleeker, flat bed-engine covers? Answer is simple. They changed the air-filter location
That was a lovely back-to-the-old-days.I used to wonder about that a lot (when i was a kid), but never really cared (or dared) enough to ask.Part of the mentality of those days, i suppose then.As a 10-11 year-old I remember standing behind KSRTC buses and comparing their carrying capacity loads (PC 53 LUG 241 kg) and then tell my mother to take the bus which had better stats,arguing it was a better bus and would reach faster!And I always preferred
to go by the TATA buses since they had rectangular headlamps which gave them a wise, smiling face.The Leyland buses always looked like aggressors ,villains or rakshasas.I used to cry if Leylands had a higher PC rating!!
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Old 17th November 2009, 16:28   #64
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In Kerala, Tata buses are preferred in cities while AL is preferred for the ghat sections. Tata buses are supposed to be easier to drive, generate lesser noise and is usually more comfortable to travel in (read lesser NVH). AL buses on the other hand are supposed to generate awesome amounts of torque (don't know how far this is true) and is thus supposed to be more suitable on the ghats where greater pulling power is needed for the climb. Tata buses are more like the Mercs of cars while AL buses are more like your hot rodded American muscle cars of yore. That said, AL buses are said to have better resale value than a similar spec Tata. Not sure about the reason for this though.
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Old 17th November 2009, 17:40   #65
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In Kerala, Tata buses are preferred in cities while AL is preferred for the ghat sections. Tata buses are supposed to be easier to drive, generate lesser noise and is usually more comfortable to travel in (read lesser NVH). AL buses on the other hand are supposed to generate awesome amounts of torque (don't know how far this is true) and is thus supposed to be more suitable on the ghats where greater pulling power is needed for the climb. Tata buses are more like the Mercs of cars while AL buses are more like your hot rodded American muscle cars of yore. That said, AL buses are said to have better resale value than a similar spec Tata. Not sure about the reason for this though.

This is an age old comparison. This was when the competition was between buses fitted with AL 402 and Tata 697 engines respectively. A close look at the spec sheets would tell us that both the engines produced about 100 BHP and 37- 40 kgm of torque. Tata buses had shorter gear ratios and hence would accelerate faster which made it a darling of intra city operators. Also the spares were cheaper and easily available. The case with Leyland was a little different - the differentials and other aggregates were more robust and would last a minimum of 50,000 kms without being opened even with severe ghat abuse which made it a favorite of long distance operators. In kerala during 80's and 90's all the superfasts and super expresses were invariably Leylands and city buses were Tatas. It's also said that ( not verified with figures)AL 402 had a longer engine life compared to the 697 in Normally aspirated guise. Now though the playing field has shifted to Hino vs Cummins and ZF vs GBS 40, the perceptions remain. No wonder that the old saying "Leyland is good for long distances and Ghats and tatas for start stop operations in KSRTC " stills echoes in Trivandrum.
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Old 18th November 2009, 17:20   #66
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Holy Moly. Didn't even guess that there is that much tech involved with those darn trucks.

Keep 'em coming SirAlec. What next? A tunnel boring machine ?
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Old 18th November 2009, 23:16   #67
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^^^^
What next?! Well it will be a surprise.

Let me hunt for it first.

BTW Trucks uses much more technology than what we normally anticipate.

If you have seen under the FH12 or more commonly Stallion 4x4, you would know.

Last edited by SirAlec : 18th November 2009 at 23:18.
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Old 19th November 2009, 10:43   #68
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Can somebody trace the 1210 series in India? I have seen the old 1210. The present successor of the 1210 is the SE 1613. But what were the iterations? There were 1210 D, 1210 E, 1210 SE etc at some point if I remember right.
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Old 19th November 2009, 15:15   #69
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Can somebody trace the 1210 series in India? I have seen the old 1210. The present successor of the 1210 is the SE 1613. But what were the iterations? There were 1210 D, 1210 E, 1210 SE etc at some point if I remember right.
Following is a brief history:
First came the 312, having original benz imported engine. Same engine was on a bus which had merc logo and round lamps.

Then came 1210D, actually a copy of 312 with 'T' logo. Tata managed to replicate the 312 6 cylinder block, merc was furious and voided the contract.
Some of them can be still seen on road, specially in Bengal hauling sand and stones.

Then came 1210S (Bonnet wala) and and at the same time 1210E (forward control, bonnet inside)

Then upgraded version came with refined engine, the 1210SE with minor cosmetic changes inside. and beautiful orange color.

Then they got license from cummins for engines and whole lot of series came, multiaxle, tractors etc etc.

SF1613 is the replacement of 1210SE. now with turbocharger and huge precleaner and intake. Truck body maker find it very difficult to relocate this intake.
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Old 19th November 2009, 17:01   #70
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SirAlec,

I really enjoyed going through the pictures from your original post - it is something really quite different and the photos are also really well taken! Thanks for sharing this with us.

I also got an insight regarding truck drivers being careful about their no-accident record!!

Regards,
Amit.
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Old 19th November 2009, 17:01   #71
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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
Following is a brief history:
First came the 312, having original benz imported engine. Same engine was on a bus which had merc logo and round lamps...
Truck body maker find it very difficult to relocate this intake.
Thank you Sir...

Did I mention? You can add my name to your fan list!
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Old 25th November 2009, 10:21   #72
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Fantastic...

The behemoths always are fascinating.
Great review and the pics are really detailed as well.
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Old 5th December 2009, 14:38   #73
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Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins View Post
This is an age old comparison. This was when the competition was between buses fitted with AL 402 and Tata 697 engines respectively. .
Are you sure that this is the 402 engine and not the AL 370 engine? AFAICT, it AL 370. The difference between AL 370, 400 and 402 is only the piston linings, pistons and of course, some minor parts in the fuel pump. Every thing else is the same.

I used to have the spec sheets of their marine engines till 7-8 years back; and was retaining them from late 1970s but who knew that I will be in T-bhp now? ;-)


Quote:
A close look at the spec sheets would tell us that both the engines produced about 100 BHP and 37- 40 kgm of torque. Tata buses had shorter gear ratios and hence would .
At what RPM? IIRC, ALM 370 (that is the marine engine) had 100 odd BHP at 1200 RPM or so.

.
Quote:
accelerate faster which made it a darling of intra city operators. .
Tatas accelerated faster, but was it due to gear ratios alone? I am not sure. The chassis was very lighter when compared to ALs.

.
Quote:
Also the spares were cheaper and easily available. .
Yes.

Quote:
The case with Leyland was a little different - the differentials and other aggregates were more robust and would last a minimum of 50,000 kms without being opened even with severe ghat abuse which made it a favorite of long distance operators. In kerala during 80's and 90's all the superfasts and super expresses were invariably Leylands and city buses .
That is something I can vouch for. We used to have a mid 1970s AL which never needed major maintenance to its diff. (save bearing change once) during its life time, It used to run approx 260 KMs per day. It was finally sold to a school which ran it for around another 7 years.


Quote:
It's also said that ( not verified with figures)AL 402 had a longer engine life compared to the 697 in Normally aspirated guise..
????!!!!

Turbos were not known till mid 1980s.


Apologies for a late reply. I finally junked Reliance bored band and switched to BSNL.
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Old 29th January 2010, 15:47   #74
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Default Update! Now a day with Semi Forward 1613 Turbo.

After a very long time i had my hands on a Semi Forward, the new one that is.

ANd my god! they have changed it completely. Its literally a semi forward now. With engine almost half inside the cabin. WIth chunk of the frontal area occupied by a massive intercooler.
Hence it now has a small bonnet inside, Unlike previously in 1210 SE it is just had a small cover to access the back side of engine.

Here are the images, Enjoy!

BTW this is a 2004 model with Cummins 6BT5.9 TC engine under the hood creating roughly 119 HP ar 2500 rpm.
Torque is about 400Nm. which is not that much on paper, compared to that produced by FH12s but has a massive hauling capacity and climbs 40degree hill easily in third.

Porn for Truck Lovers! what a beauty.
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-1.jpg

A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-2.jpg


Massive Intercooler fitted in front of the radiator
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-3-intercooler.jpg

The Cummins 6liter heart
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-4-engine.jpg

A Holset Turbocharger, Don't know the model number.
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-5-tc.jpg

Instrument Cluster, I still like the rounded ones in 1210SE
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-6-instrucluster.jpg

Same common 5fwd and 1 Rev, knob bit out of place.
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-7-gear-lever.jpg

Now the engine Brake is electronically controlled with a Switch.
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-8-engine-brake.jpg

Separate Gauge for the two air tanks.
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-9-seperate-gauge-two-tanks.jpg

Key and Start Button, Now the engine stops not with a choke (pulling accelerator pedal) but by pulling the key out from keyhole.
A day with LPT1613 TC, a TATA 1210E & Semi Forward 1613TC-10-start-button.jpg
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Old 29th January 2010, 15:54   #75
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Why 2 air tanks SirAlec? Sorry for the ignorance. What is the weight of the engine and GB?
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