Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Commercial Vehicles


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st July 2011, 21:52   #751
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: KOCHI
Posts: 367
Thanked: 81 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

TML did / does not have any model called "SFC1613", its actually SE1613.

And its only about the naming....when you say the newer "ISBe Cummins engine", its nothing but a modified version of earlier 6BT with CRDI fuel injection technology. Similarly AL has also modified its H series with CRS (CRDI) system to bring out BS4 versions. Both are using the same CRDI technology.

ISBe - Integrated system B series Electronic
CRS - Common Rail System
Transsenger is offline  
Old 21st July 2011, 22:20   #752
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Brand name wise they are still called the SE1613s, true. But those cabs are called the SFC cab/cowls.

Also please check, the newer ISBe are quite a good bit different from the older B series engines, and not just simply adding common rail injection like the CRS H-series engines from ALL. In fact a common rail version of the old Bseries engine was available from Cummins before the new B6.7 engines came along.

Cummins have made extensive changes. The other engines like the L/M series engines havent changed much, but the Bseries has. Just a simple fact, the newer engines are 6.7L compared to 5.9L for the older Bseries. Both the bore and stroke of the older engine has changed. In fact I remember reading a Cummins document, about less than half of the components are actually shared by two generations.
julupani is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 09:24   #753
Senior - BHPian
 
Ashley2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NH7
Posts: 2,092
Thanked: 1,439 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Also please check, the newer ISBe are quite a good bit different from the older B series engines, and not just simply adding common rail injection like the CRS H-series engines from ALL...
What is that common in H series CRS engine with DI engines?.
Ashley2 is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 09:27   #754
Senior - BHPian
 
Ashley2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NH7
Posts: 2,092
Thanked: 1,439 Times
Default AMW - 2516 Cowl

First pics of AMW 2516 in Cowl avatar.
Looks like its completely developed inhouse. There exists no similarity sharing of components with their cab - FAW have not helped?
The Heavy Trucks thread-dscn0121_1_.jpg

Last edited by Ashley2 : 22nd July 2011 at 09:30.
Ashley2 is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 09:47   #755
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley2 View Post
What is that common in H series CRS engine with DI engines?.
As far as I know, the CRS engine is basically the same H series engine, just that the injection mechanism has been changed from rotary/inline FIPs to Common rail injection. Obviously whatever other changes would have been required to make this possible would have been done. Please enlighten us if there are any other major changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley2 View Post
First pics of AMW 2516 in Cowl avatar.
Looks like its completely developed inhouse. There exists no similarity sharing of components with their cab - FAW have not helped?
The AMW cowl is definitely an in-house job. And as expected a good smattering of Tata parts. The HLs, indicators and bumpers seem like a lift from Tata. Though overall the cowl does maintain a certain character. Most likely it will be the 160hp avatar of the 6BT Cummins engine sourced from Tata Cummins.
julupani is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 13:29   #756
Senior - BHPian
 
Ashley2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NH7
Posts: 2,092
Thanked: 1,439 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
As far as I know, the CRS engine is basically the same H series engine, just that the injection mechanism has been changed from rotary/inline FIPs to Common rail injection. Obviously whatever other changes would have been required to make this possible would have been done. Please enlighten us if there are any other major changes.
I dont have any clue!
SInce you have told in a free flow about the conversion of normal DI engine to Crdi (which is not that easy and technically feasible), I thought you are aware of engine development.
Ashley2 is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 18:15   #757
BHPian
 
SAE40 in veins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Chennai
Posts: 219
Thanked: 149 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

An AMW with a 160 HP 6 BT ????????. Difficult to believe as i'd thought that Cummins was offering BSIII versions of 6 BT in 130, 180 and 210 only.

The 160 and 230 ratings were BSII and were not available for BS III.

Does this mean that they offered a 160 HP 6 BT Engine to AMW before they offered to TML .
Another possibility is that they would have fitted the 4.8 liter 4 cyl ISBe which has a 160 HP rating.
Can someone pls clarify ???????
SAE40 in veins is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 20:34   #758
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley2 View Post
I dont have any clue!
SInce you have told in a free flow about the conversion of normal DI engine to Crdi (which is not that easy and technically feasible), I thought you are aware of engine development.
Actually though its not like take out one part and put in another, but conversion from normal rotary/inline FIP to Common rail is not a very difficult process at all. Tata's 497, Cummins 6BT are two CV engines which come to mind which were normal DI engines which were later available in Common rail form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins View Post
An AMW with a 160 HP 6 BT ????????. Difficult to believe as i'd thought that Cummins was offering BSIII versions of 6 BT in 130, 180 and 210 only.

The 160 and 230 ratings were BSII and were not available for BS III.

Does this mean that they offered a 160 HP 6 BT Engine to AMW before they offered to TML .
Another possibility is that they would have fitted the 4.8 liter 4 cyl ISBe which has a 160 HP rating.
Can someone pls clarify ???????
Sorry, my mistake. The 160hp 6BT is only BSII, but not the 230hp which is still available in BSIII as well. Tata Cummins 6BT has never come in a 210hp tune, only a 230hp one.

Also the, the new gen ISBe you are talking about is a 4.5L 4cyl and not a 4.8L. I would be surprised as this engine is rated at BSIV and not just BSIII. Also I doubt AMW would use a 4cyl engine for a haulage truck. Also I dont think using an engine as complicated as that would be such a great idea in today's market.
julupani is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 20:57   #759
BHPian
 
SAE40 in veins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Chennai
Posts: 219
Thanked: 149 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Sorry, my mistake. The 160hp 6BT is only BSII, but not the 230hp which is still available in BSIII as well. Tata Cummins 6BT has never come in a 210hp tune, only a 230hp one.

Also the, the new gen ISBe you are talking about is a 4.5L 4cyl and not a 4.8L. I would be surprised as this engine is rated at BSIV and not just BSIII. Also I doubt AMW would use a 4cyl engine for a haulage truck. Also I dont think using an engine as complicated as that would be such a great idea in today's market.
Sorry to disagree on the 230 rating. The BSIII offerings from the 6 BT are now with 210 HP rating and about 750 NM of torque. Even the 4923 tractor has only 210 HP power and not 230 as one would believe (Just like a 407 with a 100 HP engine).

To give a little history about 210 HP rating of 6 BT, the engine debuted in the 4021 tractor of TML more than a decade ago and was used widely by 'Karithadathil' which is a logistics operator primarily into cement and other bulk transport. It probably was BS I at that time and the torque rating was just 720 NM at that point for the engine.

Come BSII - 210 became 230 and in some cases 235 ( AA series ) and AMW was quick to use that rating and carve out a niche for themselves in the 49 Tonne space while Tata was contended with 3518 and 4018 and almost vacated the 49 Tonne space. Later on TML went ahead and launched the 4923 with the 230 HP engine.
Then came the Hispano Divo 235 HP bus which was later discontinued.

Come BS III . Cummins derated the engine to 210 HP and 750 NM , but TML kept the name intact at 4923 for the tractor ad hence this misconception in the market i believe.

As for using the ISBe in India, there are Primas which have gone beyond 2 lakh KMS in the market which are still running fine with various operators and as much as i know, they are extremely happy about it.
SAE40 in veins is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 21:33   #760
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: KOCHI
Posts: 367
Thanked: 81 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Now that AMW has come with a cowl version...which one, will you vote for, among these cowls designs...(pics. respective sources)

TML - the tried and tested one and has been around for the past 2 or 3 decades.
AL - introduced towards the end of 90's, this one evolved as a result of AL's extensive research on driver ergonomics...which helped AL to gain some market in north.
Eicher - Came just before eicher changed to VECV...
AMW - the new kid...
Attached Images
 
Transsenger is offline  
Old 22nd July 2011, 23:51   #761
Senior - BHPian
 
Ashley2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NH7
Posts: 2,092
Thanked: 1,439 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

My ranking & views
TM - Most simple as it should be.
AL - Most rugged and tough but could be little more body builder friendly
AMW - Almost i feel they have taken some design elements from AL. Foot steps, indicators etc. But this is not driver friendly
Eicher - Nothing much.
Ashley2 is offline  
Old 23rd July 2011, 07:46   #762
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins View Post
Sorry to disagree on the 230 rating. The BSIII offerings from the 6 BT are now with 210 HP rating and about 750 NM of torque. Even the 4923 tractor has only 210 HP power and not 230 as one would believe (Just like a 407 with a 100 HP engine).

To give a little history about 210 HP rating of 6 BT, the engine debuted in the 4021 tractor of TML more than a decade ago and was used widely by 'Karithadathil' which is a logistics operator primarily into cement and other bulk transport. It probably was BS I at that time and the torque rating was just 720 NM at that point for the engine.

Come BSII - 210 became 230 and in some cases 235 ( AA series ) and AMW was quick to use that rating and carve out a niche for themselves in the 49 Tonne space while Tata was contended with 3518 and 4018 and almost vacated the 49 Tonne space. Later on TML went ahead and launched the 4923 with the 230 HP engine.
Then came the Hispano Divo 235 HP bus which was later discontinued.

Come BS III . Cummins derated the engine to 210 HP and 750 NM , but TML kept the name intact at 4923 for the tractor ad hence this misconception in the market i believe.

As for using the ISBe in India, there are Primas which have gone beyond 2 lakh KMS in the market which are still running fine with various operators and as much as i know, they are extremely happy about it.
The Primas tractors use the ISLe and tippers use the ISBe and both are 6cyl engines and not the 4 cyl 4.5L ones. Also, I dont think you want to use the same kind of engines, for a cowl only haulage truck targeted at small operators and a 20+lakh ex-showroom price tractors meant for large scale operators.

Also, I am very confident of the fact that the 230hp rating has survived in BSIII era as well.
julupani is offline  
Old 23rd July 2011, 13:30   #763
Senior - BHPian
 
Mr.Boss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,943
Thanked: 2,398 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley2 View Post
...FAW have not helped?
If AMW ask for a cowl from FAW they will do no great engineering in development other than chopping of the roof and the background for in-house development is FAW cab is not easy & economic to repair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
.....The HLs, indicators and bumpers seem like a lift from Tata......
I agree on HL & Indicators, bumper is from FAW with some modifications (hopefully for protos only)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins View Post
Another possibility is that they would have fitted the 4.8 liter 4 cyl ISBe which has a 160 HP rating.
Can someone pls clarify ???????
Certainly not a 4 cyl engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley2 View Post
AMW - Almost i feel they have taken some design elements from AL. Foot steps, indicators etc. But this is not driver friendly
I agree. Getting into the vehicle is bit difficult.
Mr.Boss is offline  
Old 23rd July 2011, 18:40   #764
BHPian
 
SAE40 in veins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Chennai
Posts: 219
Thanked: 149 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
The Primas tractors use the ISLe and tippers use the ISBe and both are 6cyl engines and not the 4 cyl 4.5L ones. Also, I dont think you want to use the same kind of engines, for a cowl only haulage truck targeted at small operators and a 20+lakh ex-showroom price tractors meant for large scale operators.

Also, I am very confident of the fact that the 230hp rating has survived in BSIII era as well.
Dear Julupani

I did some research after our doubts about the ratings and have understood the following from 'very reliable' sources.

Cummins has only one rating above 200 in BSIII which is a 217 HP rating with 800 NM of torque. This is the same engine supplied to TML and AMW. TML calls their vehicles 4923 and AMW does the same because of which market feels the power is 230 HP when actually it is not.

On the 210 HP rating, i stand corrected on BS III as it is 217 and not 210 as i had thought.

Primas use ISLe only in 380 HP models which are not launched yet. the commercially available 4028 is with ISBe 268 HP engine with 970 NM of torque. The Prima Brochures also clearly mentions this. AFAIK ISLe is an 8.9 liter unit which will be an overkill for a 280 HP truck.

Cummins calls their 4.5 liter and 6.7 liter engines as ISBe. I was refering to the 6 cylinder one in Prima while i believe you were refering to the 4 cylinder 4.5 liter one. I only meant that ISBe as a family is tried and tested through the Prima while i totally agree and appreciate that a 4 cylinder might behave a little differently compared to a 6 cylinder.
SAE40 in veins is offline  
Old 23rd July 2011, 19:52   #765
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins View Post
Dear Julupani

I did some research after our doubts about the ratings and have understood the following from 'very reliable' sources.

Cummins has only one rating above 200 in BSIII which is a 217 HP rating with 800 NM of torque. This is the same engine supplied to TML and AMW. TML calls their vehicles 4923 and AMW does the same because of which market feels the power is 230 HP when actually it is not.

On the 210 HP rating, i stand corrected on BS III as it is 217 and not 210 as i had thought.

Primas use ISLe only in 380 HP models which are not launched yet. the commercially available 4028 is with ISBe 268 HP engine with 970 NM of torque. The Prima Brochures also clearly mentions this. AFAIK ISLe is an 8.9 liter unit which will be an overkill for a 280 HP truck.

Cummins calls their 4.5 liter and 6.7 liter engines as ISBe. I was refering to the 6 cylinder one in Prima while i believe you were refering to the 4 cylinder 4.5 liter one. I only meant that ISBe as a family is tried and tested through the Prima while i totally agree and appreciate that a 4 cylinder might behave a little differently compared to a 6 cylinder.
Please check your "very reliable" sources.

The early Prima tractors were with ISLe and not ISBEs. Not sure what the present ones get.

Also, I am not doubting the quality of the ISBe engine at all. But its too advanced an engine to be offered to small customers who go in for the cowl option.
julupani is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Heavy Metal & Rock Thread turbo_lover Shifting gears 1158 14th December 2017 21:20
Mumbai Fire Brigade Trucks - Volvo FM400 & MAN trucks Rosso Corsa Commercial Vehicles 15 5th February 2017 13:13
BharatBenz launches three Heavy-Duty Trucks in India parrys Commercial Vehicles 41 28th January 2017 20:23
Tata Motors launches 6 Heavy Trucks & FleetMan Telematics Services parrys Commercial Vehicles 51 16th November 2013 16:05
Tata to construct new Heavy Trucks plant in Myanmar Dippy Commercial Vehicles 1 26th March 2010 12:51


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 22:05.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks