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Old 23rd July 2011, 23:02   #766
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So, as of now there is no real competition to the LPT1613 and the LP/LPO1512 models from Tata. Probably why Tata thought of introducing a LPT2513.
As the market is buyont towards multi axle trucks AL may would have reduced its presence there. I am just guessing this


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As for BS4 version, so Leyland are continuing with the same H-series engines with an SCR system to achieve tighter emission norms. Unlike Tata who seem to be shifting to the newer ISBe engines, presently using the 4cylinder ISBe in 160hp config and the 6cylinder ISBe in 240hp config.
Its much easy for Tata to move to new norms and higher power engines as they are depending upon Cummins and can be lifted anytime from their porfolio unlike AL which needs to develop of its own!
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Old 24th July 2011, 10:40   #767
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As the market is buyont towards multi axle trucks AL may would have reduced its presence there. I am just guessing this

Its much easy for Tata to move to new norms and higher power engines as they are depending upon Cummins and can be lifted anytime from their porfolio unlike AL which needs to develop of its own!
I dont know, of course the 16 tonners sell a lot less than 25tonners, but the market is still there. Also, it doesnt really cost a lot from the production point of view to make them, as a high percentage of parts would be shared with other models.

A 160hp 16 tonner, may attract some customers due to the higher power rating.

Tata do have it easy, with their very successful collaboration with Cummins. One may even hazard a guess and say that Tata are the single largest users of Cummins engines. As almost 75% (probably more) of medium and heavy duty trucks sold by the 4th largest CV maker use Cummins engines.

But Tata have developed their 4cylinder LCV engines in-house and have them ready for BSIV norms as well. Also, I think an 8-9L in house engine from Tata is under development as well, which I think will be ready in time for the BSIV era.

Leyland have done a fine job in the continuous development of the Hino engine. But they need their Neptune engine to be ready soon, if they want to capture the high hp market. Their present cap of 230hp is a big hurdle for them, preventing them from entering both the high hp truck market and the premium bus market.
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Old 24th July 2011, 21:44   #768
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Default Re: The Heavy Trucks thread

Intrestingly in BS3 16T GVW segment, for TML, the LPT1616 sells more than LPT1613. Another aspect is that AL 1616 comes with 160Hp BS3 engine with Inline FIP, which is more advantageous for any Indian customer, as maintenance cost is very less & nation wide service is available.
Having said that, i also feel, AL needs to develop its 4cyl. 120HP BS3 engine also with an InlineFIP/RotaryFIP and eliminate the EDC.

@AshLey2...any idea why BS3 AL 6DTi 160HP engine was stopped!
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Old 24th July 2011, 22:14   #769
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Intrestingly in BS3 16T GVW segment, for TML, the LPT1616 sells more than LPT1613. Another aspect is that AL 1616 comes with 160Hp BS3 engine with Inline FIP, which is more advantageous for any Indian customer, as maintenance cost is very less & nation wide service is available.
Having said that, i also feel, AL needs to develop its 4cyl. 120HP BS3 engine also with an InlineFIP/RotaryFIP and eliminate the EDC.

@AshLey2...any idea why BS3 AL 6DTi 160HP engine was stopped!
The LPT1616 sell for one major reason, that is the 697 engine. The 697 engune has one advantage over the Cummins one, which is a major factor for the individual owners or small fleet owners. The 697 engine has a cylinder liner while the Cummins one doesnt. This helps in easy serviceabilty of the engine after high running. In the 697 engine one can simply replace the liner after it gets worn, while with the Cummins one has to rebore it and use thicker piston rings which is a more complicated and costly job.
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Old 24th July 2011, 23:37   #770
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@AshLey2...any idea why BS3 AL 6DTi 160HP engine was stopped!
I think they wanted to have 160 with Inline pump.
More over this engine apart from just having inline FIP is very frugal.
And AL is taking good advantage of this engine and have developed series of products based on this engine.And inorder for the customer to differentiate this from the earlier these products are tagged wit the name il - 1616il, 2516il etc.
There are reports upto 5.2 kmpl in its largest selling variant 3116 il.
I feel only this could be the reason - user friendly,frugal and ine of its kind!
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Old 25th July 2011, 08:36   #771
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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
So, as of now there is no real competition to the LPT1613 and the LP/LPO1512 models from Tata. Probably why Tata thought of introducing a LPT2513.

As for BS4 version, so Leyland are continuing with the same H-series engines with an SCR system to achieve tighter emission norms. Unlike Tata who seem to be shifting to the newer ISBe engines, presently using the 4cylinder ISBe in 160hp config and the 6cylinder ISBe in 240hp config.
.
So, LPT1616 is itself in competition with LPT1613.

Again, the reason for "LPT2513" is the non-availability of BS3 cummins engine in 160Hp category as of now! And TML has 1613, similarly AL has 2516!

@julupani...as per your post in "The Indian bus scene - #523" the above ISBe engines are also using SCR for BS4 version, right! And the only difference is that TML had to go for a new engine whereas AL could achieve BS4, just by adding SCR to its existing H series.
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Old 25th July 2011, 10:13   #772
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So, LPT1616 is itself in competition with LPT1613.

Again, the reason for "LPT2513" is the non-availability of BS3 cummins engine in 160Hp category as of now! And TML has 1613, similarly AL has 2516!

@julupani...as per your post in "The Indian bus scene - #523" the above ISBe engines are also using SCR for BS4 version, right! And the only difference is that TML had to go for a new engine whereas AL could achieve BS4, just by adding SCR to its existing H series.
Well,both Tata and Leyland have provided multiple hp ratings for same GVW multiple times. So its not a surprise that we have both a 1613 and a 1616. In fact Tata will be happy that the 1616 is selling well. This means they can actually produce more 697 engines. Tata Cummins almost always works at full capacity to try and meet the demand for Cummins engines, while Tata's 697 engine doesnt sell enough.

As of now, if you see the 2518 and 3118 are the main haulage models of Tata, so probably Tata isnt that worried about losing the 160hp Cummins engine.

Tata did not "have to" go for the newer ISBe engines. Cummins had improved its design replacing the 5.9L Bseries with the newer 6.7L Bseries. As the world over this change was affected, I dont see why Tata would ask Cummins to develop a BS4 rated old gen B-series for its use, though I am sure Cummins could very well done it. Remember the new 6.7L ISBe is not a brand new engine, just a heavy modification so as to span a higher range of HPs, as the whole world is moving towards higher hp ratings.

As for usage of SCR, to my knowledge no truck/bus engine has yet been developed to meet E4 or higher regs without using either SCR or EGR.

Last edited by julupani : 25th July 2011 at 10:15.
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Old 25th July 2011, 15:14   #773
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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
So, as of now there is no real competition to the LPT1613 and the LP/LPO1512 models from Tata.

As for BS4 version, so Leyland are continuing with the same H-series engines with an SCR system to achieve tighter emission norms. Unlike Tata who seem to be shifting to the newer ISBe engines, presently using the 4cylinder ISBe in 160hp config and the 6cylinder ISBe in 240hp config.
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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
As of now, if you see the 2518 and 3118 are the main haulage models of Tata, so probably Tata isnt that worried about losing the 160hp Cummins engine.

Tata did not "have to" go for the newer ISBe engines. Cummins had improved its design replacing the 5.9L Bseries with the newer 6.7L Bseries. As the world over this change was affected, I dont see why Tata would ask Cummins to develop a BS4 rated old gen B-series for its use, though I am sure Cummins could very well done it. Remember the new 6.7L ISBe is not a brand new engine, just a heavy modification so as to span a higher range of HPs, as the whole world is moving towards higher hp ratings.

As for usage of SCR, to my knowledge no truck/bus engine has yet been developed to meet E4 or higher regs without using either SCR or EGR.
Actually i was referring to your post (#746). The real competition to LPT 1613 is from LPT1616 itself. And among them LPT1616 is in competition with AL1616. So the absence of AL1613 is no concern.

Second, TML is concerned about the absence of 150/160HP version of multiaxle 6x2 truck, which is mostly preferred in applications like Tanker, light high volume goods etc. Thats the reason, TML was forced to go for LPT2513 at least for the timebeing. AL2516 with inline FIP is significantly eating the market atleast in some parts of India.

Third, yes, TML did not "have to" but had to choose from what is available with cummins. Cummins is making all these improvements or heavy modification for achieving the emission norms world wide. If cummins could get the earlier 6BT into BS4, then Tata would have 100% preferred that, since 6BT is an established model in India and aftermarket support was already in place. That did not happen. Earlier in 2005, cummins tried to bring BS2 100Hp engine. TML even sold some buses with this engine. But it did not last long. That engine was stopped as it did not achieve the BS2 levels. TML recalled all sold vehicles fitted with this engine and recalibrated its FIP to 125HP rating. And that's the reason why LPO1610 BS2 was stopped and converted to LPO1612BS2.

Fourth, when an engine say ABC, is able to achieve tighter emission norms by just simply adding an exhaust after treatment, rather than going for a "heavy modification including cyl.block, head etc", then it is the best engine....
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Old 25th July 2011, 15:50   #774
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Actually i was referring to your post (#746). The real competition to LPT 1613 is from LPT1616 itself. And among them LPT1616 is in competition with AL1616. So the absence of AL1613 is no concern.

Second, TML is concerned about the absence of 150/160HP version of multiaxle 6x2 truck, which is mostly preferred in applications like Tanker, light high volume goods etc. Thats the reason, TML was forced to go for LPT2513 at least for the timebeing. AL2516 with inline FIP is significantly eating the market atleast in some parts of India.

Third, yes, TML did not "have to" but had to choose from what is available with cummins. Cummins is making all these improvements or heavy modification for achieving the emission norms world wide. If cummins could get the earlier 6BT into BS4, then Tata would have 100% preferred that, since 6BT is an established model in India and aftermarket support was already in place. That did not happen. Earlier in 2005, cummins tried to bring BS2 100Hp engine. TML even sold some buses with this engine. But it did not last long. That engine was stopped as it did not achieve the BS2 levels. TML recalled all sold vehicles fitted with this engine and recalibrated its FIP to 125HP rating. And that's the reason why LPO1610 BS2 was stopped and converted to LPO1612BS2.

Fourth, when an engine say ABC, is able to achieve tighter emission norms by just simply adding an exhaust after treatment, rather than going for a "heavy modification including cyl.block, head etc", then it is the best engine....
Improving emission standards just by tinkering with the basic design almost always results in better torque and power figures.

Also, with the 6BT, I dont think Cummins were forced to heavily modify the engine to meet E4 standards. They could very well have done it by taking the common rail version of the 6BT and just adding the SCR system. But to meet the increasing demands of customers all over the world, they made all the modifications. Now the newer Bseries engines can go upto 300hp and 1100nm of torque, all the while having the ability to meet even E5 standards. Even the 4.5L 4cylinder version can give upto 205hp and 750nm of torque, which gets pretty close to what the 6cylinder Hseries engine can do.

Remember Cummins dont design engines just for India, but for a whole variety of customers all over the world. And engine makers just dont change a design only to meet newer emission norms, but also to meet the demands of their customers.
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Old 26th July 2011, 19:08   #775
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@ Julupani : I think again, you have made contradicting statement.
With TM claiming the largest customer base of Cummins, Its obvious that Cummins develop a specific engines(read as upgrade/derate the exsiting engines also) to suit TM needs. what do you say?

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Tata do have it easy, with their very successful collaboration with Cummins. One may even hazard a guess and say that Tata are the single largest users of Cummins engines. As almost 75% (probably more) of medium and heavy duty trucks sold by..
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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
....
Remember Cummins dont design engines just for India, but for a whole variety of customers all over the world. And engine makers just dont change a design only to meet newer emission norms, but also to meet the demands of their customers.

Last edited by Ashley2 : 26th July 2011 at 19:10.
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Old 26th July 2011, 19:54   #776
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@ Julupani : I think again, you have made contradicting statement.
With TM claiming the largest customer base of Cummins, Its obvious that Cummins develop a specific engines(read as upgrade/derate the exsiting engines also) to suit TM needs. what do you say?
How is it a contradiction?? Please read my words carefully and not try and search for hidden meanings in them or try and imply more than what I have written. When I said, Tata are a very big customer for Cummins, why do you imply that they will make an engine just for India or Tata??

I said, Cummins designs engines for the whole world, doesnt mean they disregard one of their biggest customers. But neither does it mean that they concentrate only on their biggest customer.

How does this new 6.7L ISBe engine not suit or cause any problem for Tata at all?? Tata are pretty happy with this new engine, as it suits their need extremely well indeed. Why would Cummins want to develop a Tata specific engine, when they can give us an ISBe which is good enough for all their customers??

If Tata thought they could not use the new gen ISBe, they probably would have asked Cummins to make an engine suitable for their needs, and at about 400 engines used by Tata per day Cummins would have happily obiliged. And also Tata have not shifted to the new 6.7L engines the moment the rest of the Cummins world used it. This "new" engine has been on offer since 2007-08 outside India. I think as of now Tata Cummins is the only place which still manufactures the 5.9L Bseries engines, while the 6.7L engine started only about a year and half back.

I really dont understand, why changing a design to make it better is seen as a bad thing at all.

Last edited by julupani : 26th July 2011 at 20:06.
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Old 26th July 2011, 20:13   #777
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Seems that TM is planning to come with 210 HP engine for their upcoming 37 tonners.
Not sure this will be final or they come with higher ones later.
Also as widely expected LPT 2523 is not reaching the intended audience it seems or it has not effectively replaced the most successful LPT 2515.
I think TM may rework its multi axle halage stategy.
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Old 26th July 2011, 20:26   #778
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Seems that TM is planning to come with 210 HP engine for their upcoming 37 tonners.
Not sure this will be final or they come with higher ones later.
Also as widely expected LPT 2523 is not reaching the intended audience it seems or it has not effectively replaced the most successful LPT 2515.
I think TM may rework its multi axle halage stategy.
Why do you say that the 2523 was supposed to be a replacement for the 2515??? I think the 2518 is their main model, sort of succesor to the 2515, and the 2523 was for those few customers who were ready pay the extra money the extra power and not as a mass market model. Remember the 230hp Cummins engine is not just a higher rated version, but one which is a bit different form the 180hp ones. The main difference being a 4valve cylinder head, compared to the standard two valve one.

Have you heard of a 37tonner in the legacy range from Tata??? Because I had heard of it only in the Prima range.
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Old 26th July 2011, 20:28   #779
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Does TML have LPT2523 or are you referring to LPK2523!
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Old 26th July 2011, 20:37   #780
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I think the LPT 2523 is on offer, may only with a factory provided tilt cab. The LPK 2523 has been stopped, I think with the introduction of the Prima tippers.
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