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Old 11th January 2011, 14:57   #211
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

Regarding Chennai MTC, I can say with conviction that the seats in the Marcopolo buses are one of the easiest means to get a back pain. Me and my room mate, both of us travel a lot by bus - me during weekends, and him on weekdays to office (Tiruvanmiyur to Ekkaduthangal - route M70). He would wait for a non-Marcopolo bus even at the dead of the night. The seats' backrest is at an awkward angle and the legspace is limited, compared to non-MP buses.

@longhorn: The AL buses have the window glass restraint ergonomically placed - it's easily accessible. The TM ones are at the very top, and unless you get up and hang on to the hook the glass will not slide down. Ask the conductors and drivers, you get a better picture of it.

The seats on top of the wheel well in both AL and TM buses are alike. A fully grown person cannot sit comfortably for a long time. I don't like the way the seats are placed above the front wheel well in ALs. It's difficult for the elderly to get onto the seats. There's no uniformity, that's because the bodies are built by Prakash, Veera, KMS, GS Body works, Shakti automobiles (don't know if there are more)
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Old 11th January 2011, 15:14   #212
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
.... like the shoe box on wheels like the ALL design, which was probably made when the designer had access to only a ruler, a tri-square and a pencil.

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Originally Posted by silversteed View Post
The seats on top of the wheel well in both AL and TM buses are alike. A fully grown person cannot sit comfortably for a long time. I don't like the way the seats are placed above the front wheel well in ALs. It's difficult for the elderly to get onto the seats. There's no uniformity, that's because the bodies are built by Prakash, Veera, KMS, GS Body works, Shakti automobiles (don't know if there are more)
You guys, please decide between yourselves.

Are these buses designed by AL / TML? Or by the builders? Or by the JNURRM requirements? Or by the operators?

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The major issue with the TML buses in my opinion is the Cumminss 5.9L B series engine, which is just vibrates too much for a bus. Unlike the H-series engines from ALL which vibrate a lot less. If TML had a proper bus engine, it would be much better. But the engine for buses from Cummins is the L series which is way too large and costly for India.
Is it the engine or the engine's mounting design?

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Even the standard ACGL starbuses being built for the JNNURM in some cities, were a hugely pleasant surprise in terms or build-quality, speed, comfort, features etc. The only thing still remaining is it still feels like a vibrating piledriver when standstill at a stop.
TML's buses always vibrate; at standstill, and always are subject to harmonics while in motion - but both vibrations are lot less in models in last decade.
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Old 11th January 2011, 15:27   #213
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Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post

Are these buses designed by AL / TML? Or by the builders? Or by the JNURRM requirements? Or by the operators?
The buses are designed by AL/TM, according to the specifications listed out in the JnNURM scheme.

For the MTC buses, AL has given the body-building contract to various body workshops - SMK (Prakash), Veera Vahana, KMS Coach, GS Body works, Shakti Karur, etc. These companies are supposed to build according to the specifications given by ALL but they cut corners, and some buses (especially from the last two that I've listed) have their pneumatic doors defunct within months.

MTC's Tata Marcopolo buses are all built by TMML Dharwad.


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TML's buses always vibrate; at standstill, and always are subject to harmonics while in motion - but both vibrations are lot less in models in last decade.
+1 to that

Last edited by silversteed : 11th January 2011 at 15:28.
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Old 11th January 2011, 15:50   #214
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

I think the ALL offers more seating than the Marcopolo . someone correct me , I havent been in a marcopolo .
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Old 11th January 2011, 17:18   #215
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I think the ALL offers more seating than the Marcopolo . someone correct me , I havent been in a marcopolo .
I think it's the other way. The AL Viking SLFs are 10.8m long, while the Marcopolos are 12m long. Maybe 3-4 seats and standing space extra in the latter.
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Old 11th January 2011, 17:30   #216
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

Dont know about who actually designs the ALL buses, the company itself or the bus builders. And as of now, though I have heard that ALL actually have a body building facility at Alwar, havnt come across any model which seems to be built there. As for TMML the body is designed and built by TMML, while the chassis comes in from TML Pune, Jsr or Lkw.

As for the Cummins engine, the engines internal characteristics have very high vibrations themselves, thus they vibrate, its not an issue with the mounting. The simple solution is to go in for another model all together. I havent found the vibrations to be that harsh on the RE MarcoPolos thanks to the different chassis design. But even on the RE bus you know that the engine at the back is vibrating a lot more than the Volvo, though you dont feel it that back due to the inherent chassis and engine placement advantages.
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Old 11th January 2011, 17:40   #217
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Dont know about who actually designs the ALL buses, the company itself or the bus builders. And as of now, though I have heard that ALL actually have a body building facility at Alwar, havnt come across any model which seems to be built there. As for TMML the body is designed and built by TMML, while the chassis comes in from TML Pune, Jsr or Lkw.
ALL has a body building facility in Alwar. The DTC ULEs are built there. ALL also has a partnership firm Irizar-TVS (a three-way partnership firm from ALL, Irizar and TVS) which builds bodies for ALL. They build bodies for other makes too.

When there are capacity constraints, ALL gives the job on contract to other body builders such as SMK, Veera, KMS, etc. Just like Volvo giving its body building part to Azad Coach. However, IMO, the QC from ALL needs to improve greatly in order to bring about uniformity and maintain quality
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Old 11th January 2011, 18:04   #218
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

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Originally Posted by silversteed View Post
Regarding Chennai MTC, I can say with conviction that the seats in the Marcopolo buses are one of the easiest means to get a back pain. Me and my room mate, both of us travel a lot by bus - me during weekends, and him on weekdays to office (Tiruvanmiyur to Ekkaduthangal - route M70). He would wait for a non-Marcopolo bus even at the dead of the night. The seats' backrest is at an awkward angle and the legspace is limited, compared to non-MP buses.
With all due respect, I doubt your friend knows the MP buses from the regular Tata buses. Of all the city buses I have travelled in so far, I can say with conviction that the TMP is the best of the lot (excluding the Volvos) and by a fair margin at that. The MP buses are longer, can carry more passengers and there is decent legroom for all seats(including the ones near the wheel well). Even standing passengers at a much higher level of comfort due to the increased space between the left and right rows of seats. Comparing this to AL buses is a joke where there is hardly any space for a person to passby if one person is standing.
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@longhorn: The AL buses have the window glass restraint ergonomically placed - it's easily accessible. The TM ones are at the very top, and unless you get up and hang on to the hook the glass will not slide down. Ask the conductors and drivers, you get a better picture of it.
The AL buses have the window glass restraint placed where its easily accessible AND could easily do harm to your head where you get the alignment of your seat and the window restraint right.
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Originally Posted by silversteed View Post
The seats on top of the wheel well in both AL and TM buses are alike. A fully grown person cannot sit comfortably for a long time. I don't like the way the seats are placed above the front wheel well in ALs. It's difficult for the elderly to get onto the seats. There's no uniformity, that's because the bodies are built by Prakash, Veera, KMS, GS Body works, Shakti automobiles (don't know if there are more)
I have always found it more comfortable to be standing that sitting on the seats at the wheel well in AL buses. No such issues with the MP ones, though the ride is decidedly superior at seats away from the wheel well.

Last edited by longhorn : 11th January 2011 at 18:07.
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Old 11th January 2011, 18:29   #219
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

The MTC buses normally have seats that are closely spaced . The difference between the same Viking buses can be seen with the APSRTC ones . The seats have higher back rest and spacing .
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Old 11th January 2011, 18:53   #220
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

Ok, but as I read in the newspapers the DTC city bus contract was split about 2:1 in favour of the Tatas, but when I was in Delhi, I rarely saw a Leyland bus around. The ratio of the Tata to Leyland must have been at least 10:1. What sort of building capacity do they have at the Alwar facility??

And the contract itself was about a thousand buses, which should have been completed already. Most of the MarcoPolo fleet is already on the ground on Delhi along with the maintainance facilities manned by the TML people.

And with the Irizar-TVS facility, what would be the rough share of Leyland to non-Leyland buses being built there? Is it something like ACGL, which is almost 80-90% a Tata bus builder?
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Old 11th January 2011, 19:00   #221
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

Simple logic is Tata wants the end customer to pick up the bride of their choice . ALL wants the end customer to choose how he wants the bride to look .

Another thing is ALL has created a big industry of bus body builders in the southern parts and because of that we see a lot of "evolved" bus bodies , suspensions , engine specialists , pump specialists .

TATA wants the whole pie .. ALL wants a part of the pie that it can specialise in .
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Old 11th January 2011, 19:01   #222
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The only weak link for ALL is the TVS dealerships . If only ALL had dealers other than TVS , i am sure ALL can give TATA a run for its money .
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Old 11th January 2011, 19:13   #223
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
And with the Irizar-TVS facility, what would be the rough share of Leyland to non-Leyland buses being built there? Is it something like ACGL, which is almost 80-90% a Tata bus builder?
My guesstimate would be around 60-70% as I do see quite a lot of Tata buses with Irizar bodies, used by transport companies for MNCs' employees.

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Simple logic is Tata wants the end customer to pick up the bride of their choice . ALL wants the end customer to choose how he wants the bride to look .

Another thing is ALL has created a big industry of bus body builders in the southern parts and because of that we see a lot of "evolved" bus bodies , suspensions , engine specialists , pump specialists .

TATA wants the whole pie .. ALL wants a part of the pie that it can specialise in .

The only weak link for ALL is the TVS dealerships . If only ALL had dealers other than TVS , i am sure ALL can give TATA a run for its money .
Well, I think you've given a to-the-point brief summary. I would like to add that AL has to improve the quality check on the buses built by other workshops but sold under the AL brand, such as the KeSRTC RE LE buses and MTC Viking SLFs. Volvo and Azad is a very good example to follow.

TVS has a monopoly in AL dealerships. That's proving costly for AL while TVS still makes money because of the brand value of AL among bus operators
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Old 11th January 2011, 20:07   #224
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

@greatmana2000
Do you mean to say that companies are not supposed to look at ways to improve their revenue, because I though that they did. And if you look Tata has practically created ACGL which today builds thoudsands of buses a year and also started what will be world's largest bus building facility in Dharwad.

And anyway, with the way the Tata is doing its job of building buses without the "specialists", in the past few years the customers seems to be liking the "bride" Tata has to offer.

Also I dont think in the CV market, the dealership makes as much a part of the buying decision instead of the economics of the product. And if it did cause such a big problem, I dont think there will be a dearth of people wanting to take up a Leyland dealership and thus making way for non-TVS dealers.
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Old 11th January 2011, 22:07   #225
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

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.... Not sure how they managed to bag that order, while "dealing" with the STCs of course ALL is the best, no doubt about that.
So if ALL gets the contract its with a "dealing" and what kind of "dealing" did TML do to get contracts.

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Also do you mean that those design features had to be incorporated to hide the inner parts of the bus? If so could you please expand on what these inner parts might be?...
Better you could take a view in them and understand. As I was repeatedly saying the issues pointed are from drivers and not from passengers. It could be understood when you take the driver seat.

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Also, at the end of the day, those design feature still make it look good



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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
and not like the shoe box on wheels like the ALL design, which was probably made when the designer had access to only a ruler, a tri-square and a pencil.
Looks are always subjective and your views are upto you. But even today a designer uses a ruler and tri square only for designing (may be the context is the same)


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Dont know about who actually designs the ALL buses, the company itself or the bus builders. ...
AL only designs them but still they are customised by various STU for seating capacity.


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Ok, but as I read in the newspapers the DTC city bus contract was split about 2:1 in favour of the Tatas, but when I was in Delhi, I rarely saw a Leyland bus around. The ratio of the Tata to Leyland must have been at least 10:1.
Hey come on. TML - 2300 ALL - 875.

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
And with the Irizar-TVS facility, what would be the rough share of Leyland to non-Leyland buses being built there? Is it something like ACGL, which is almost 80-90% a Tata bus builder?
Same way >90%. They are mostly exported to Gulf.

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The only weak link for ALL is the TVS dealerships . If only ALL had dealers other than TVS , i am sure ALL can give TATA a run for its money .
Thats always true.
TVS is making a big dent even in well known places

Last edited by Ashley2 : 11th January 2011 at 22:12.
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