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Old 14th April 2011, 14:47   #346
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

That is a very interesting price list.

1. How can chassis' with different wheel dimensions be sold at same price?

2. AL always sells chassis at at least 5% above equivalent TML specificationed chassis. How come they match prices here? Is this not unfair trade practise (wrt to non-*RTC customers?).
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Old 14th April 2011, 21:37   #347
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Originally Posted by binaiks View Post
The rates for the old contract are as follows:

ALL 4470mm WB: Rs. 7,16,780 (230 Nos)
ALL 5639mm WB: Rs. 7,16,780 (40 Nos)

TATA 4800mm WB: Rs. 7,16,780 (60 Nos)
TATA 5900mm WB: Rs. 7,16,780 (340 Nos)
TATA 6200mm WB: Rs. 8,48,612 (50 Nos)

Total 720 buses.
When both AL & TML has quoted the same price for normal & cut chassis, how did they go for more number of TML chassis this time! What is the deciding factor here?
Moreover are you sure that 720 buses were ordered in this tender? I think they called the tender for 720 but placed orders for only about 400-450 chassis, including LPO1612 super express chassis.
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Old 14th April 2011, 21:41   #348
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

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Originally Posted by Transsenger View Post
Moreover are you sure that 720 buses were ordered in this tender? I think they called the tender for 720 but placed orders for only about 400-450 chassis, including LPO1612 super express chassis.
Very much. They called tenders for 1000 buses, and issued purchase orders for 723 buses (including 1 Vestibule and 2 DDs). [This is the information provided to me by the Chief of Purchase and Stores, KeSRTC, in response to an RTI query]

Given the fact that both ALL and TML quoted the same price, the logic behind purchasing more TATAs cannot be understood. Interestingly though, almost all ALLs were built as Super Fasts - there were very little ALL buses built as Ordinaries.
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Old 14th April 2011, 21:55   #349
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

I think as the prices quoted by the two operators were the same, and there wasn't anything to disqualify either manufacturer from supplying the bus, I assume that the order was split in a manner so as to ensure quickest delivery of the total requirement of buses. Tata, which i think has a higher capacity of production would have been able to promise a larger number of buses within the same period of time allowing it to bag a larger share of the order. Other than that the extra 50 LWB buses Tata was the only supplier.
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Old 14th April 2011, 22:29   #350
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Originally Posted by Transsenger View Post
AFAIK. as per the rate contract referred above, both TML & AL had supplied few BS3 buses for trial to KeSRTC during mid 2010. But KeSRTC failed to place further orders within Dec2010, when the contract ended. Now TML & AL has refused to supply BS3 chassis with old price. The fault seems to be with KeSRTC. Recently Malayala Manorama daily, has a detailed news in this regard.
Transsenger, not sure the same report, but some where it was mentioned one of the Suppliers(no need to guess) influenced(!) KSRTC not to place the orders before the contract runs out. Do not know the truth...
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Old 14th April 2011, 22:43   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
That is a very interesting price list.

1. How can chassis' with different wheel dimensions be sold at same price?

2. AL always sells chassis at at least 5% above equivalent TML specificationed chassis. How come they match prices here? Is this not unfair trade practise (wrt to non-*RTC customers?).
Not sure how the KSRTC tendering process works...but it is common, when the product/technology is same, pick the lowest bidder and allow, all qualified bidders to match the best bid if the want to. If the vendors match the best bid, then the order could be split between the bidders.
It is not a unfair trade practice as normal customers wont place such large orders, Also the price given to VRL, SRM etc wont be the price normal customers (1,2 bus wallas) pay.
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Old 14th April 2011, 23:09   #352
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
.... Tata, which i think has a higher capacity of production would have been able to promise a larger number of buses within the same period of time allowing it to bag a larger share of the order.....
Very high misleading statement without any evidence!
If that is the case TML has no production capacity as far as IRT is considered as the orders are mostly swept by AL always.
No where in history AL was running short of production capacity and they are always well ahead of requirements.
Officially AL has capacities exceeding 1.5lks and they are producing(ed) vehicles upto 95k this year.And I dont see any production constraints here.
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Old 15th April 2011, 07:30   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by binaiks View Post
in response to an RTI query]
!!!???!!!!

RTI??

I was wondering how you got so accurate info.

Quote:
Interestingly though, almost all ALLs were built as Super Fasts - there were very little ALL buses built as Ordinaries.

I guess that is the typical KL style - " 'benz' for short distance, AL for long distance" mentality.

Slightly OT.

Was to Veegaland last week. What has that to with this thread??

Return was by a KeSRTC super express AL. (12M I guess). The route was Veegaland - TVM

Got seat in the last row. Was as comfortable as the first seat on the pock marked Veegaland . Civil Station sector.

to the Waveller suspension and the driver too.

The handle of the slider glass on my side was missign. Was too tired to look at anything else.
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Old 15th April 2011, 09:23   #354
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

@Ashley

What is this IRT??


Also, theoretical production capacities are rarely met in reality in any plant. Anything above 85% utilisation of capacity is very good. Also today, with such a large number of components coming in from outside, supply chain is a very important cog in manufacturing process.

I remember last year, Bosch had some problems in their manufacturing of FIPs, which had a massive effect on all CV makers of India, bringing actual productions down to less than 50% of capacity.

For example, I can tell you TML's Jamshedpur plant has a theoretical capacity of 490 vehicles per day, but actual production fluctuates between less then 200 to more than 400 depending on many factors. I can also tell you that Tata will be able to sell all the vehicles if full capacity is achieved. And I am sure, if ALL is able to actually produce 1.5lakh vehicles per year, even they will be able to sell each one of them without any trouble at all.

Thus what I meant here by production capacity is not actually theoretical capacity of the line, but the ability of the manufacturer to commit a particular number of units within a certain period of time. This depends on a very large number of factors, only one of which is theoretical line capacity.

Here I compared capacities based on the actual number of vehicles sold by the two manufacturers. Of course, if you say Leyland will complete shift over production for just KeSRTC, they can meet the complete order upto delivery in less than one month. But I doubt that will be the case, as they would be having large number of customers each of whose commitments have to be met to the best of their abilities.

Last edited by julupani : 15th April 2011 at 09:24.
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Old 15th April 2011, 14:22   #355
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
What is this IRT??
Institute of Road Transport


Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Also, theoretical production capacities are rarely met in reality in any plant. Anything above 85% utilisation of capacity is very good.
Theotrical claculations are never revealed outside.There are many things like Machine capacity/Installed capacity/settled capacity/Agreed capacity etc
The figures quoted by manufacturers are all realistic and achievable. Theotrical calculations are a buffer kept in hand and will be realised as and when required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Also today, with such a large number of components coming in from outside, supply chain is a very important cog in manufacturing process.
Of course yes. This will definetely be taken into consideration while arriving at the capacity of the Manufacturer.
I would like to recall when Hyundai Motors doubled their capacity in 2007 from 3lks to 6 lks, they started their work with suppliers even from 2005.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
I remember last year, Bosch had some problems in their manufacturing of FIPs, which had a massive effect on all CV makers of India, bringing actual productions down to less than 50% of capacity
The news quoted by you is a public known story and there were several interim measures taken by each manufacturer and I am quite sure that there was no production loss upto 50%. Just bringing some prduction figures for AL and TML during Nov-Dec-Jan 2009/10 when there was a strike.
TML
Nov - 33,338
Dec - 33,519
Jan - 35,957
ALL
Nov - 6351
Dec - 7049
Jan - 6848


Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
I can also tell you that Tata will be able to sell all the vehicles if full capacity is achieved.
If TM has the capacity to sell all the vehicles what it can produce and its not producing for many reasons as told by you, then it means they are loosing business. This is not the reality situation. Every manufacturer knows to what level their product is accepted in the market and they continue to produce till that.
And one more thing is, there is nothing like a situation where every one waits for TM products and others are just taken for granted.

And most important is TM was also penalised during JNnurm scheme for not meeting the deadline by several STU's, which is contrary to the statement given by you.

Just wanted to bring out the actual situation and no personal offense here.. plz

Last edited by Ashley2 : 15th April 2011 at 14:26.
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Old 15th April 2011, 16:42   #356
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

I never talked about independent machine capabilites, I am talking about the theoretical capability with which a particular assembly line is designed, and those numbers with a bit of rounding up are revealed to the public, just like you said Hyundai increased their capacity to 5lakhs.

And again, I would like to stress, that the capacities are rarely met. Some problem or the other always crops up, not to mention the fact that we still have people manning the stations and not robots. So there is some inherent under utilisation of capacity. As for supply chain, you think just because we designed a system perfectly means it works perfectly. Things like machine break downs, unavailability of raw material, power failure,transport delays and a million other things delay production on a daily basis. All those managers in plants are not just sitting all day long.

Let us just compare two numbers. The production figures of ALL in Oct-2010 and Mar 2011, 3479 and 11015 respectively. What did they do, shut down the plant for two weeks, or introduction of BS3 caused the demand to be halved?? For your information it was in October that there were massive issues in both TML and ALL in adjusting to producing only BS3 vehicles, causing massive problems with the supply chain. Of course this was an extreme case of under-utilisation, but minor ones occur all the time. Which is why I said, if you are able to meet your capacity by over 85% regularly you are doing more than fine.

As for the numbers you have quoted, what exactly are these, total CV sales, total M&HCV sales?? I ask, because they dont seem to match any of the data I am able to collect. Also the period of problems that I was referring to was more like Sep-Oct last year and not 2009. I also do not remember hearing of any strike at TML or ALL any time in 2009. And again the daily production values quoted by me are from personal experience and not speculation.

As for TML losing business, I agree to that. But on the other hand, its not like any other manufacurers are gaining at its cost. That is because the whole CV market has pretty big under supply problems because of capacity constraints, even more so in the bus segment. That is why I had said even ALL would be able to sell 1.5lakh vehicels if they could actually produce them.

I agree every manufacturer knows what number of vehicles can be sold in the market, that is what the marketing department is there for. I agree that every manufacturer then "tries" to produce that number of vehicles. But does not mean they succeed in doing so.

There are people who will wait for a TM product, there are others who will wait for a Leyland, and then there are those who will take what is available. But like I said, as of now you have to wait for all of them, no manufacturer has so much under utilised capacity that they can fill the void of supply now.

As for TML not meeting deadlines, like I said, production plans and production realities dont always coincide, and some times they are not even in the same ball park. And I dont think this is something limited to TML.

While all this is good, the original argument on your behalf was the production capacities of ALL vs TML. You quoted a figure of 1.5lakh vehicles a year for ALL. If you see last years actual production values for TML, the total M&HCV sales were by itself over 1.92lakhs, which is already a 30% higher value than that of ALL. The corresponding number for ALL was actually 0.83lakh, the rest of the 0.95lakh sales being LCVs. Assuming similar capacity utilisation by ALL and TML, we can expect a theoretical capacity of TML at close to 2.5lakh M&HCVs. I would imagine this rest all doubts about TML having more production capacity.
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Old 15th April 2011, 19:51   #357
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

Any idea what is the chassis powering this vehicle
This is Conference on wheels (Konferenz on wheels as told by parveen travels)
Konferenz on Wheels! - Meetings Re-defined...
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Old 15th April 2011, 20:35   #358
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

Looks like a modified / custom built Volvo.
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Old 15th April 2011, 20:48   #359
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

I doubt it is a Volvo, mainly because the builder would not feel the need to throw away all the body panels and create an all new body. Instead, only the interior would have been modified, and at best probably the front panels.

My guess is either they have procured a RE city bus chassis from ALL/TML and built the body on that. Or may be they procured a RE city bus and threw away its body to put up this one. I think the first option is more likely.

But what I am stumped is what is the point of such a bus?? Is there really that much demand for having a conference on wheels??
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Old 15th April 2011, 21:00   #360
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

I wont bet on it; but it is the wiper layout and air vent layout in rear which made me think of Volvo.

The steering is too low; so cnnot make any guess based on that.

Reg. the utility - how about having a quick bread with some traffic jam and discussing business around a table?
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