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Old 22nd January 2010, 10:31   #46
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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
Lets get real here and not emotional. For your additional info, here is a link that clearly states that BMTC had rejected the MarcoPolo based on various reasons. It also states that they would buy them only if the prices were reduced substantially. How could TATA "improve" it and reduce the price and also bag the contract with all the fair practices?

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/s...s,high%20costs
Good point here Devnath.

But who is this senior official? I mean there are hundreds of articles claiming statements to 'senior officials'/'reliable sources'/'representatives' of almost all companies in the world. How can we depend on such an article? Also seniority is very subjective. On a running Volvo bus the conductor is the most senior BMTC official! At least they could have named the official's post?

There are reasons that names do not get quoted here. A name means responsibility for the statement!

Tata buses are inferior to Volvo. Nobody complains about that. But when we write of a product we should have some facts right? If Tata is bad as they claim why don't they come up with statistics in paper on why and how it failed to meet their aspirations. Why cannot they make the evaluation process transparent?

If the evaluation was transparent this question of arm twisting would not have come up! Being a PSU surely there is nothing wrong in expecting transparency and accountability?

Just because Safari is bad (there are lots in tbhp itself who disagree) does not mean Marcopolo is bad. I mean just because R-class is boring does not mean SLS is boring right? You get the drift I suppose.

Simply claiming that a company arm twisted without any proof is quite plainly speculation!

Last edited by Trapezio : 22nd January 2010 at 10:34.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 10:52   #47
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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
Volvo not successfull in Blore, now thats news to me, ever travelled in route Nos: 333, 500, 600 at any time of the day? Ask the staff about their daily collection and target achievements. You will know the truth.
Vajra Volvo's are not a success operationally, on most of the schedules. The Corporation has resorted to trip cuts, operating them only during peak-hour schedules, on even the so-called successful routes, to save on fuel and OT wages. The fuel consumption figure of the B7RLE in city traffic itself is enough to suck out any profit that these buses earn. Add to it the cost of the spares, and it's definitely not a viable fleet to maintain. As an example, an overhang rear view mirror assembly (the most commonly breaking item in B'lore traffic) that is priced at almost 3 day's revenue collected, cannot be called cheap for any reason.

I feel the Tata Marcopolo's fit seamlessly into the Corporaton's fleet for the simple reason that most of the aggregates are shared among the other models that are in operation from the same brand, and they do not need to have a separate inventory for these common items. This bus is not as thrifty as the Volvo for sure, but at the same time, not thirsty either .

We need an upwardly transport solution that's easy on the purse for both the operator as well as the traveller.

EDIT: As regards arm-twisting by the so-called manufacturer in question here, i'm quite certain it is not being done. How many "T" logo's have you seen on BMTC buses from this manufacturer? Sadly, this manufacturer has always been an underdog in the above segment as well.

Last edited by dkamath : 22nd January 2010 at 10:58.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 12:25   #48
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
Good point here Devnath.

But who is this senior official? I mean there are hundreds of articles claiming statements to 'senior officials'/'reliable sources'/'representatives' of almost all companies in the world. How can we depend on such an article? Also seniority is very subjective. On a running Volvo bus the conductor is the most senior BMTC official! At least they could have named the official's post?
The name is Devdath, if you please..
I agree with you but tell me, the fact remains that these buses were finally rejected by BMTC after trial runs. It is only when the JN-NURM funds were released that they mysteriously came back. Also, there was regular fleet addition to the BMTC even before the JN-NURM which means these buses were not put on hold due lack of funds altogether.
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
There are reasons that names do not get quoted here. A name means responsibility for the statement!

Tata buses are inferior to Volvo. Nobody complains about that. But when we write of a product we should have some facts right? If Tata is bad as they claim why don't they come up with statistics in paper on why and how it failed to meet their aspirations. Why cannot they make the evaluation process transparent?
All of us are aware of the amount of transparency in the country. The only point I m trying to make is the fact that DTC fined TATA 4 Crore for supplying it low quality Marcopolos and BMTC buys them inspite of this. This incident happened in Nov-09 if I m not mistaken. How soon did TATA improve their Marcopolos? In a month or two, I wish I could believe this.

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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
Simply claiming that a company arm twisted without any proof is quite plainly speculation!
I hope my above points make it clear why I m suspecting the arm-twisting happening here. I m not comparing the Safari to the Marcopolo, it is baseless,I know. It was just an example of a company which has not improved its products with rocket speeds ever.

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Originally Posted by dkamath View Post
Vajra Volvo's are not a success operationally, on most of the schedules. The Corporation has resorted to trip cuts, operating them only during peak-hour schedules, on even the so-called successful routes, to save on fuel and OT wages.
I feel the Tata Marcopolo's fit seamlessly into the Corporaton's fleet for the simple reason that most of the aggregates are shared among the other models that are in operation from the same brand, and they do not need to have a separate inventory for these common items. This bus is not as thrifty as the Volvo for sure, but at the same time, not thirsty either .
We need an upwardly transport solution that's easy on the purse for both the operator as well as the traveller.
The only loss making trips of the BMTC Volvos were the BIAL services which were initially from every place in the city to the airport. Most other routes ( and I have this info from the BMTC supervisors, drivers etc with whom I chat regularly while travelling) are profit making. Yes, spares are horrendously expensive like you mentioned which is a given part of the deal when you buy an imported bus to ply on crowded city streets.

Yes, we need something cheaper on the inventory and spares side which is why I m a big fan of the newly introduced locally built light blue buses by VEERA on TATA and AL chassis which have spacious seats (designs copied from Volvo made by Harita), flat floors, air suspensions and comfortable ride and NVH levels for a front engine bus. The lack of an ac is the only issue but that too can be sorted out, I m sure.
But, the Marcopolos have proven to be unreliable, noisy (Compare it with a Volvo or a front engined bus), not very cheap to procure and of dismally low quality which has been proven by DTC.
Something cheap need not be of bad quality. Look at the Nano, excellent product.

Last edited by n.devdath : 22nd January 2010 at 12:27.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 12:47   #49
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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
All of us are aware of the amount of transparency in the country. The only point I m trying to make is the fact that DTC fined TATA 4 Crore for supplying it low quality Marcopolos and BMTC buys them inspite of this. This incident happened in Nov-09 if I m not mistaken. How soon did TATA improve their Marcopolos? In a month or two, I wish I could believe this.
Dear Devdath...

I fully understand your point. Consider this...

1. Tata started supplying DTC in 2007.

2. Logically there are buses which have completed more than two years non stop in the fleet.

3. We do not know the batch of the buses which caught fire. I have not seen any articles. If there are please post it.

4. Its possible that the buses that caught fire were two year old design

Hence the revised one in Bangalore could be really revised since they had two years since Marco Polos were released. Correct me if I am wrong here.

Moreover if they find issues I think it will be wise to correct them immediately from the next batch rather than waiting further as it complicates the matter.

Also, something unrelated but which might be an added info.
Only one bus caught fire - fire as in somebody saw the flames.

The rest were heavy fumes
In two with fumes it was a coolant leak which started falling on the hot engine! It was the coolant evaporating.

Some of the rest it was unfixed insulation etc which by any stretch of imagination is not a huge issue. Also this is 8 out of 1000. No excuses here though and Tata paid the fine.

In one bus which caught fire they could not find the issue. On detailed check/questioning it turns out that the bus was driven with its doors open the entire day due to overcrowding. There was a safety mechanism which activates brakes when the doors are open. Hence the entire day brakes were on. It overheated and finally burst into flames.

If somebody have better info/data please do post it here. But I think we need facts to evaluate this.

But if Marcos can withstand Delhi heat and cold for the last two years with heavy usage (remember they are often overcrowded in Delhi; also services in Delhi often start from early morning till night 12am unlike Bangalore which pretty much starts winding up from 6pm!) it cannot be so poorly engineered as some think.

Last edited by Trapezio : 22nd January 2010 at 12:56.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 13:05   #50
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Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
In Bangalore, i have been regularly seeing the Marcopolos along the Sarjapur Road. Not sure if the destination is Sarjapur, or earlier. Also, not sure about where it starts from.
Yep.. They go from KR Market to Sarjapur. My house is close to Sarjapur, so I know :-)
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Old 22nd January 2010, 13:07   #51
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Devdath, I wonder what makes you hate Marcopolo so much. Trapezio has already given explanation about the incidents.

I don't know about diesel, but the CNG AC Marcopolo low floor is certainly the best available option in its class (CNG AC buses). There is a bus from Leyland, but it is still a new player in the scene.

I have personally travelled in the CNG Marcopolo which BEST had tried out. It is a very good bus. Quality, though not as good as Volvo, is definitely not bad.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 13:12   #52
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
Moreover if they find issues I think it will be wise to correct them immediately from the next batch rather than waiting further as it complicates the matter.
Precisely, but how many times have we seen TATA doing it? Though I wish they did. Also, DTC would have had these buses checked/audited and then arrived at the conclusion of imposing the fine. Moreover, and I could be wrong here, I guess the purchase also came with an upkeep contract so TATA's preventive maintenance quality is questionable.

The story was published in the TOI and I will put up the link once I find it. I had opened a thread on TBHP with the same link as well. Here is the link:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...s-fires-2.html
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Old 22nd January 2010, 13:49   #53
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Precisely, but how many times have we seen TATA doing it? Though I wish they did. Also, DTC would have had these buses checked/audited and then arrived at the conclusion of imposing the fine. Moreover, and I could be wrong here, I guess the purchase also came with an upkeep contract so TATA's preventive maintenance quality is questionable.
I agree. But I hope that you see the filled half glass too along with the empty part. The rest 1000+ buses from Tata itself works fine.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 14:00   #54
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I agree. But I hope that you see the filled half glass too along with the empty part. The rest 1000+ buses from Tata itself works fine.
If you mean the rest of the 1000 Marcopolos, well, the amount of failures in the fleet was enough to defame it anyway. But if you mean the normal front engined low-tech TATA buses,I simply love the new "light blue" non-ac buses built on front engined chassis and air suspensions by Wheels India on TATA and AL chassis.

They are reliable, low tech, proven and easy on the operator as well. It is just the hastily developed/launched/upgraded/conceived Marcopolos that I m critical of, due to the proven issues with them.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 14:03   #55
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
I agree. But I hope that you see the filled half glass too along with the empty part. The rest 1000+ buses from Tata itself works fine.
I live in Bangalore, and am sure I've read in the local news papers that the Volvo fleet is not really making a profit. It was stated that the condition of roads contributes to early suspension and tyre damage/wear. The low speeds and frequent stops also result in ridiculously poor averages from the Volvo fleet. These are the reasons why BMTC is considering a change. Why would they if the Volvos are generating revenue that more than overcomes these costs?

I've never travelled in one of the Marcopolos, so can't comment on the ride/quality, but being Tatas, the initial cost will not really reflect the savings in running cost due to higher fuel efficiency and lower parts cost, I think.

And about arm-twisting, I'm sure I've never heard of Any Tata company resorting to that. One of the most ethical corporates in India today, I'm sure. Yes, the products might not be the greatest, but the effort is always to improve. Evidence in the successive Indica iterations, the Vista and Manza. The Safari today is a much improved product, retaining the good ride, while improving incrementally on quality and engines. No lack of effort there, really. Only mentioned since we were comparing.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 14:09   #56
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The fares for Marcopolos has been kept ridiculously low - almost at par with the old Suvarna Fares. (About 1.5 times the ordinary fare).
I traveled from Brigade to Vishwapriya Layout (3kms off Bommanahalli) once and the fare was Rs. 13!!!! Also its minimum fare, I think, is only Rs. 5. Marcopolo fares are very reasonably done and route 362* starts from Vishwapriya Layout to Shivaji Nagar/xx
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Old 22nd January 2010, 14:23   #57
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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
If you mean the rest of the 1000 Marcopolos, well, the amount of failures in the fleet was enough to defame it anyway. But if you mean the normal front engined low-tech TATA buses,I simply love the new "light blue" non-ac buses built on front engined chassis and air suspensions by Wheels India on TATA and AL chassis.

They are reliable, low tech, proven and easy on the operator as well. It is just the hastily developed/launched/upgraded/conceived Marcopolos that I m critical of, due to the proven issues with them.
Perhaps defamed, but I am sure that defamation does not make those running 1000 buses any less reliable!

Last edited by Trapezio : 22nd January 2010 at 14:24.
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Old 22nd January 2010, 15:11   #58
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Perhaps defamed, but I am sure that defamation does not make those running 1000 buses any less reliable!
Maybe, but it certainly makes commuters treat every journey as a suspense thriller
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Old 22nd January 2010, 18:03   #59
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TATA might have surely done some improvements in buses after they were fined!
lets wait for some time and see how Marco Polo performs on Bangalore roads.

BTW, do we know approximate FE of Vajra Volvo and a Marco polo bus?

Kindly post here
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Old 22nd January 2010, 19:27   #60
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After initial trail of Marcopolo, they were rejected by BMTC. Now only for JRUNM its been introduced. Things i observed in difference Volvo and Marcopolo are

1) AC is pretty bad in Marcopolo(MP), sometime i have seen MP completely fogged inside the glass. AC is powerful in volvo.
2) MP power is low. MP buses moves at the speed of ordinary buses. Engine noise you hear fail to infuse any confidence. Volvo can Overtake almost any powerful cars in the road.
3) Low noise inside Volvo compared to MP.
4) Bumpy ride in MP compared to Volvo.

Maybe because of all there the intial cost and good milage make MP to charge you less. So MP is a segment between volvo and ordinary buses, cannot be compared to volvo as replacement.
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