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Old 27th June 2017, 22:34   #286
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Default Re: The R-E-A-L BHP Giants: Maritime (Ship) Engines

One question
How do people survive this business as sailors ?

If I started a business and told prospective employees you are going to be months away from home, possibility of being stranded with the nearest land thousand miles away, and you're going to suffer brutal weather and possibility of sinking with the chance of never being found - I'd imagine I'd find very few employees.
I imagine you must love it to do it. I also imagine a sailor and a soldier must have similar mindsets, very similar survivor like traits seem to be needed for all this voyage stuff.

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Old 28th June 2017, 09:05   #287
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Default Re: The R-E-A-L BHP Giants: Maritime (Ship) Engines

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One question

How do people survive this business as sailors ?
While I might not be the correct person to speak on this but I can say as to why I was interested in getting into the Merchant Navy.

1. For the love of it - I love ships and the thought of going through rough seas just makes my adrenaline go high. I know, seasoned sailors would say that rough seas aren't that easy and all that but from my purview it is way better than a stupid desk job I am doing right now.

2. You will be a part of the core Supply chain industry - the challenges in the supply chain industry are huge. Its not just about transporting from one place to another. Its about transporting in time and in proper shape. Mitigating those risks is a huge task which I would have looked forward to

3. The money - you earn for the entire year in around 6-8 months. So effectively you get around 4 months of PTO to be with your family and vacation. Now which job gives this ?

There are a certain breed of people who wouldn't really mind being away from home for a while (I am one of them) and those are the ones who get into sailing. Unfortunately I couldn't make it to the Merchant Navy and that is something I regret each and every single day.

P.S. - there are many documentaries which air on NGC and Discovery on the shipping industry, from building ships to ship wrecking, from transporting without much problems to having lot of problems etc. You can watch them if you like. I kinda fulfill my desire of being on the ship by watching them
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Old 28th June 2017, 14:02   #288
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Default Re: The R-E-A-L BHP Giants: Maritime (Ship) Engines

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I know, seasoned sailors would say that rough seas aren't that easy and all that but from my purview it is way better than a stupid desk job I am doing right now.
I know one very experienced master who has never entirely recovered from a hurricane experience that, at the time, he seriously did not expect to survive.
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Old 29th June 2017, 10:52   #289
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Default Re: The R-E-A-L BHP Giants: Maritime (Ship) Engines

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I know one very experienced master who has never entirely recovered from a hurricane experience that, at the time, he seriously did not expect to survive.
Thats quite true. I had one experience which stands out in my memory after all these years, it happened sometime in '89. we were on a voyage from Quebec to Gijon, with a full load of coal, cutting across the north Atlantic in winter, which is a season of storms. Sometimes towards the evening the barometer started to fall, from about 1015mb, and what a fall it was, it was an unbelieveable 958mb around 2300 hrs. People tend to give me wry grin when i tell the barometric pressure, like i am pulling a fast one. Anyway the seas were mountainous by that time, and i saw quite a few crew on their kness in the saloon. It was shipping seas almost over the lifeboats. We altered course and started geading south from a north easterly course, to avoid the storm. It was a sleepless night for for the ships complement, and by next day morning around 10/11, the weather started to subside.
After all these years the thought of that night still give me butteflies in my stomach. That i am alive is just god's grace.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:52   #290
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North Sea is pretty shallow.
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Originally Posted by sindabad.sailor View Post
Similar to some snaps posted by many elsewhere
Distance travelled: ABout 9.5 Lac km in 4 years.
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Spotted the Kimolos Warrior crude oil ship at Mumbai port today:
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Bumping up an old thread - Ships caught when returning from Elephanta caves:
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Hi,

A few pictures of a couple of my ships (both were VLCC's) in drydock in Dubai and Zhoushan, China.
Questions for the Aquatics from an Avian:

(1) How much underwater is the depth of a typical cargo ship of say 100,000 tonnes dead weight ie how deep underwater is the deepest part of the ship (keel or props I assume)
(2) Some container ships I believe are quite fast like 25 knots cruising speed. If 25 knots is the cruising or sustained speed I assume the top speed must be quite a lot more. What would that be in range of - 28 knots or 30 knots or 33 knots.
(3) Lets say a cargo ship is cruising at 18 knots and then encounters heavy seas then how much more power do you need to put out to keep cruising at 18 knots - 10%, 30% or 100%. I realize the phrase 'heavy seas' is as ambiguous as it gets but just trying to understand the magnitude.
(4) The sheet metal that your hulls are made of - how thick is it -20mm or more like 50mm. May be the thickness varies at different parts of the hull.

Apologies in advance if the questions are poorly framed. I look forward to your answers and learning more of the 'other' fluid.
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Old 9th July 2017, 16:22   #291
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Default Re: The R-E-A-L BHP Giants: Maritime (Ship) Engines

Yes, the North Sea is "shallow." (quotes because it is all realtive!).

As a small-boat sailor who used to sail mostly around South-Cornwall/Scillies, Thames Estuary and Southern North Sea, I can say that the latter gave me my most uncomfortable experiences.

There are two things to know about waves. Imagine seeing the waves; now imagine a wave-form diagram. Yes, there is as much "wave" under the water as above it. Now imagine birds sitting on the water: they do not move, except up and down, as the wave passes them. Yes, the wave passes through the water: it does not move it.

When you sit on a beach, you see moving water hitting the beach as the waves arrive. This is because the bottom part of the wave is literally tripped up in the shallow water. You may see water tumbling down the face of the wave. This is a breaking wave. In a small boat: do not want!. Further out to see, the wind may sheer the top off waves, or they may get too steep and "fall over." I think this kind of weather/sea is do-not-want to our professionals too!

And, of course, there are a lot more things to know about waves, wind, currents, seas.

By small, by the way: for me, thirty to forty-five foot. Probably smaller that the lifeboats on the vessels discussed here. Actually, I was thinking yesterday: if you put me aboard such a boat now, and told me to sail it, I'm sure I could get it to move (under sail) in approximately the right direction. But I wouldn't do much better than that, and I would be absolutely unsafe to take charge, and quite lost with the navigation (coastal pilotage, in pro terms, is all I did). There really is so much to know, remember and practice, even in a small craft.

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Old 9th July 2017, 17:37   #292
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Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post
I imagine you must love it to do it. I also imagine a sailor and a soldier must have similar mindsets, very similar survivor like traits seem to be needed for all this voyage stuff.
Very true. It can't be done as just a job, and these days the difference in what it pays and what a good corporate career has to offer, has reduced significantly.
My son went to sea at 18 and is now a Master. Part of his reason for going was he was very sure he did not want to be desk bound as his father was. We spent two years before he sailed getting him to understand how hard the life can be but he knew what he wanted to do and went ahead and did it. Fortunately for him, he enjoys the life.

In the time he has been at sea we have seen the change from "No news is good news" to " Why has he not been in touch on Whatsapp for three days now".
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Old 9th July 2017, 17:39   #293
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Default Re: The R-E-A-L BHP Giants: Maritime (Ship) Engines

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I know one very experienced master who has never entirely recovered from a hurricane experience that, at the time, he seriously did not expect to survive.
I can believe him.

My Dad was in the Indian Navy and then joined the merchant marine later in his career. He was on the deck side i.e. a Master.

In experiences that he recounted when back home was some of those storms (especially in the North Atlantic or near Cape Horn) can put the fear of God into you. And the size of the ship does not matter. Even a large bulk carrier of 100K+ tonnes DWT gets tossed about like a cork.

As a mariner you develop a very healthy respect for Mother Nature and the oceans.
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Old 9th July 2017, 17:48   #294
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Cape Horn is feared even today. Imagine how it was in the days of sail, when crossing it, particularly from east to west meant weeks of waiting for the winds to change from the usual west to east direction. And then get caught in the extremely high wind and running seas.

Anyone wanting a taste of the life can find a lifetime of reading on the subject in the Patrick O'Brien books, one of which was the subject of the movie " Master and Commander". The movie comes nowhere close to the books which are in Literature class. From a time when Men were Men and where boys went to sea at the age of 12.

Another couple of books for a feel of Man v Man + Nature are two WW2 books. The Cruel Sea by Nicholas Monsarrat about anti submarine small ship warfare in the North Atlantic and HMS Ulysses by Alistair Maclean, that is about the Arctic convoys from Iceland to Murmansk.

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Old 10th July 2017, 00:17   #295
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Cape Horn is feared even today. Imagine how it was in the days of sail, when crossing it, particularly from east to west meant weeks of waiting for the winds to change from the usual west to east direction. And then get caught in the extremely high wind and running seas.
Another wave factlet. Blow across your full cup of tea. That is how waves get made. The size of waves is dependent on the strength of the wind that made them and the distance over which it has blown. Those who have never thought about this should look at where Cape Horn is, and how far those winds can blow without any land getting in the way. Eek.

From the annals of of small boat-sailing comes a real-life book called Once Is Enough (the author might be called Smeaton, a brain cell suggests) They were pitchpoled off the horn. That is to say that the boat was turned heals over head by the wind. The managed to get to port and repair. The point of the book title is that it then happened to them again.

The guy who literally wrote the book, for me, on small-boat stuff, was Eric Hiscock. Of course, he and his wife were true, live-aboard international sailors, unlike weekend and a couple-of-weeks-a-year people like me. Mrs Hiscock: "I love a gale: it gives me a chance to get some baking done." Love it. I have never actually experienced force-8 at sea. But I've been out in too much wind to think about cooking!
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Anyone wanting a taste of the life can find a lifetime of reading on the subject in the Patrick O'Brien books, one of which was the subject of the movie " Master and Commander". The movie comes nowhere close to the books which are in Literature class. From a time when Men were Men and where boys went to sea at the age of 12.
When my friend told me about this series, I said, ohnonotagain.... I;ve read the Hornblower books, the based-on-Hornblower books... and now another series? Completely different, he said. And couldn't have been more right. I read the entire series once every year or two.

My interest in boats and the sea helped me with literature. I read Conrad, not because he wrote amazing English literature, but because he wrote about ships and the sea.

Quote:
The Cruel Sea by Nicholas Monsarrat
Is the only book that has made me laugh and cry both at once. The film is good too. Whilst it is certainly British stiff-upper-lip stuff of its period, it does not glorify war, but shows it in a harder truer light.

While we are taking a literary/arts break ... From the people the Brits in the Cruel Sea were fighting, an epic length German movie about a WW2 U-boat and its crew: Das Boot. Strongly recommended.

And my copy of Adlard Cole's Heavy Weather Sailing was lost in the Chennai flood.

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Old 10th July 2017, 07:03   #296
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I read the entire series once every year or two.

Is the only book that has made me laugh and cry both at once. The film is good too. Whilst it is certainly British stiff-upper-lip stuff of its period, it does not glorify war, but shows it in a harder truer light.

While we are taking a literary/arts break ... From the people the Brits in the Cruel Sea were fighting, an epic length German movie about a WW2 U-boat and its crew: Das Boot. Strongly recommended.
A annual fellow traveller with Aubrey and Maturin, the two main characters and pillars of the Master and Commander series set in the era of the Royal Navy at the time of Lord Nelson! I read them every 18 months or so, because it takes 6 months to complete the series. O'Brian is a master of words; here is the first sentence from one of his books:
"Thick weather in the chops of the Channel and a dirty night, with the strong north-east wind bringing rain from the low sky and racing cloud: Ushant somewhere away on the starboard bow, the Scillies to larboard, but never a light, never a star to be seen; and no observation for the last four days."

What would I give to write like this! In just one sentence you are bang on board the heaving quarterdeck of a sailing man of war, in the English Channel, on its way home from a voyage of many months by dead reckoning alone.

Or this first one that conveys a very different atmosphere:
"The West Indies squadron lay off Bridgetown, sheltered from the north-east trade wind and basking in the brilliant sun".

Close my eyes and I can see this scene in every detail, including the deep blue of the sea that isn't in the sentence! All that is missing is the strains of Calypso and the bouquet of spiced rum. There is another book that has a lot of Mumbai and India in it, that is just as fascinating. First destination landfall for ships sailing from England around the Cape of Good Hope being Malabar Hill in Mumbai, and outlawed pistol duels early in the morning on the Maidan in Calcutta.

Oddly enough, one of the books also contains the best description I have ever read of the English countryside at the height of its spring/summer glory.

The Cruel Sea film is one that comes very close to doing justice to the book. Filmed in the 1950s in black and white, with no CGI, it still does a better job than many later films of conveying the North Atlantic at its most elemental, or the ice and cold on the Arctic convoys. Some special effects are clearly dated and visible but for the most part, the credibility is well sustained.Spliced in is actual war camera footage that is of poor quality, but sobering to see. Still one of the best WW2 movies made.

Das Boot is one of the most intense movies I have seen and anyone wanting to see it ought to look for the unedited Directors Cut that is over 200 minutes. Originally it was screened as an even longer 6 part TV movie in Germany. It also needs to be seen in German with English subtitles; the dubbed version doesn't feel as authentic. Anyone that wants to get the feel of life in small attack subs will get this from Das Boot. It starts of by putting forth a small but grim fact: In WW2, 40,000 German sailors went to war in submarines; 30,000 never returned.

A couple of more recent movies that also do a very good job of showing different aspects of the sea going life are The Perfect Storm, and Their Finest Hours.

The first is about trawler fishermen caught up in a super storm in the Grand Banks off the coast of Newfoundland in the North Atlantic. Largely about these, there are a couple of awe inspiring shots of container ships being hammered as well by the same storm. All they lose is some containers though. A true story.

Their Finest Hours is a book as well, about a storm in the North Atlantic in the early fifties, with poorly built cargo ships caught up in it breaking into two right in the middle. The stern - rear - section still has engine power and incredibly, is steered for many hours in the storm while the bow section floats off, also with sailors on it, wherever the storm takes it. The heart of the story is the efforts of the US coast guard service, in what look like impossibly small rescue boats to save lives. Their first big obstacle is getting out of harbour - the bays are hammered by huge breaking waves and getting over or through these is itself something that is close to impossible and few succeed in just getting out to sea. This is one film that perhaps does a better job than the book, but the combination of film+book gives the complete picture of the power of the sea. Another true story.

Apology for the small digression from topic.

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Old 10th July 2017, 09:36   #297
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Wow wow and wow.

How I missed this thread for so long? Read it from start to end in one go.

Where is the OP? Vijaypal?

To stroke diesels are something again. Yourself different from two stroke petrol that we are familiar with from Yezdi sand likes.

Kudos to breath of knowledge in these forums.
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Old 10th July 2017, 15:18   #298
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Das Boot is one of the most intense movies I have seen and anyone wanting to see it ought to look for the unedited Directors Cut that is over 200 minutes. Originally it was screened as an even longer 6 part TV movie in Germany. It also needs to be seen in German with English subtitles; the dubbed version doesn't feel as authentic. Anyone that wants to get the feel of life in small attack subs will get this from Das Boot. It starts of by putting forth a small but grim fact: In WW2, 40,000 German sailors went to war in submarines; 30,000 never returned.
great post, Sawyer .

Yes, I saw the original 6-part series with subtitles. It was on British TV. A couple of times, I think. The music was great, and, as a linguistic dunce, I sort-of listen to other languages like music. I loved the sound of the German in that series. If I had to learn another European language...

(Although a girlfriend who found learning languages easy, assured me it is hard. A lot of irregular stuff, apparently, that just has to memorised.)
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Old 10th July 2017, 16:20   #299
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Default Re: The R-E-A-L BHP Giants: Maritime (Ship) Engines

Great post Sawyer. Das Boot and Perfect Storm have always been favourites and I will definitely look for the 200 minute edition. Couple more books/movies in the same genre that come to mind:

Submarines:
U-571 (overall amazing)
Hunt for Red October (Sean Connery, book is better though)
Crimson Tide (amazing stand-off between Denzel W. & Gene H. in a nuclear sub)

General military:
A Few Good Men (Jack Nicholson, Tom Cruise & Demi Moore all excelled)
The Scarlet and the Black (WW2, under-rated but a good watch)
Saving Private Ryan (sometimes melodramatic but eminently watchable)
HMS Ulysess (novel, haunting last page description of her final charge)
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Old 10th July 2017, 17:56   #300
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In the interest of staying somewhat on topic, I will reply only to movies/books referred above connected with the sea.

I did not like U 571, having seen Das Boot first. To start with, the WW2 submarine there looks far more spacious inside that it was in reality - see how claustrophobic it feels in Das Boot in contrast. And the dialogue that goes - it was a privilege sailing with you, Captain - is cringeworthy that only a hack will write now.

I first read and was very impressed by HMS Ulysses as a school boy, and I have never forgotten either Vallery or the Kapok Kid. I bought the book again recently and it still isn't as dated as the other Alistair Maclean potboilers are now. And yes, the final death ride of the ship with all available guns firing bravely but hopelessly is a stunning chapter.

I can't resist though - if you like Saving Private Ryan, make sure to see Band Of Brothers, a ten episode TV movie featuring the actions of just one company of US paratroopers of the 101st Airborne from June 1944 to May 1945. The length allows many nuances to be explored, making for a much better experience.
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