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Old 3rd November 2010, 23:16   #196
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Originally Posted by teamveevee View Post
+1, Thanks hvkumar for bringing it up. I also noticed the same. No of TM vehicles in KerRTC fleet have increased considerably during the last couple of years, and they are plying even in High Ranges and Sabarimala these days.
No of Tata private buses also increased in Kerala. 5 years back, there was absolutely no Tata buses in and around Kottayam, Now i see at least few. Some of the big operators like Kondody, Saranya etc started to induct TM buses to its fleet, which was not the case some time back.
In TN highways, 5 years back, we could see only AL National Permit trucks, but if you look now, you will see quite a few TM trucks, mostly multi axle.

In short, In south TM is capturing some of its lost ground, Only area where i dont see any change is in 40+ seater Tourist Buses. I have not seen many big Tata Tourist buses in Kerala or TN. But <30+ seater, mini buses, looks like TM is a major player. This is just my observation, not based on any statistics.
Recently Tata had launched its LPO1618 intercity chassis (equal to AL 12M). Today many leading operators like SRM etc has introduced new intercity buses built by Prakash on TML 1618LPO chassis. Also its learnt that a tour operator in Pala near Kottayam has booked for Tata Hispano 1628HD bus. Similarly TML has been able to make inroads in AL strong hold markets of central kerala with their "Supermilo 1613" in the private bus segment.
And Ksrtc this time purchased Tata 1512c (cummins) instead of 1510LP (TML 697 engine). But the entire order for non-a/c fleet of jnnurm buses were to AL. A new fleet of 50 "Super Express" on Tata 1612LPO chassis is under body building at KSRTC units.
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Old 4th November 2010, 10:18   #197
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Recently Tata had launched its LPO1618 intercity chassis (equal to AL 12M). Today many leading operators like SRM etc has introduced new intercity buses built by Prakash on TML 1618LPO chassis. Also its learnt that a tour operator in Pala near Kottayam has booked for Tata Hispano 1628HD bus. Similarly TML has been able to make inroads in AL strong hold markets of central kerala with their "Supermilo 1613" in the private bus segment.
And Ksrtc this time purchased Tata 1512c (cummins) instead of 1510LP (TML 697 engine). But the entire order for non-a/c fleet of jnnurm buses were to AL. A new fleet of 50 "Super Express" on Tata 1612LPO chassis is under body building at KSRTC units.
Thanks Transsenger, That is good to know, By the way who is the Tour Operator based out of Pala? is it for intercity operations like Ker<->Bangalore? Looking forward to travel in those Tata Super Expresses...
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Old 4th November 2010, 18:31   #198
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Recently Tata had launched its LPO1618 intercity chassis (equal to AL 12M). Today many leading operators like SRM etc has introduced new intercity buses built by Prakash on TML 1618LPO chassis. Also its learnt that a tour operator in Pala near Kottayam has booked for Tata Hispano 1628HD bus. Similarly TML has been able to make inroads in AL strong hold markets of central kerala with their "Supermilo 1613" in the private bus segment.
And Ksrtc this time purchased Tata 1512c (cummins) instead of 1510LP (TML 697 engine). But the entire order for non-a/c fleet of jnnurm buses were to AL. A new fleet of 50 "Super Express" on Tata 1612LPO chassis is under body building at KSRTC units.
I think tata's must have launched the 1618 from lessons learnt from the successes of AL12m.
Except the 1512 I won't be betting money on any of those Tata products, unless they stays in kerala market for more than 2 years. There was a similar hype during the lauch of Eicher Terra and all in Kerala- But I don't think they are selling anymore.

1512c is a proven product.

What engines does the 1628Hd have?? again B series??
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Old 4th November 2010, 20:08   #199
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A huge fleet of CNG low-floor AL buses (looking identical to the Kinglong fleet) was procured by BEST sometime ago, but I hardly see any on the road - whatever happened to them?
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Old 4th November 2010, 20:53   #200
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Can you guys thow some light on the specs of AL 370, AL 400 and AL 402 truck/bus engines?
I doubt that 40X seriens was used on roads; probably, the 402 was used in multi axle / heavy weight pulling tractor / trailer combinations. I am not sure.

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Was AL 370 used in Comet chassis and 402 in Viking?
All buses and 10 tonne trucks came 370 engine. Even the normal 3 axle tractor trailer (2 normal axles in the tractor, one rear axle in the trailer) type trucks (up to 20 TMC container) definitely used 370 engines.

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Can someone also explain the exact difference between Comet and Cheetah chassis, both having Comet-style short front overhangs? Was Cheetah merely a rebadged Comet?
COmet ant Taurus were truck chassis.

Vikings and Cheetahs were bus chassis.

Main difference for the common man was that these varied in front over hang alone. Vikings had more front over hang, to accommodate a door in front of the front wheel.

But, not all chassis with good front overhang were Vikings.

There was supposed to be some difference in terms of thickness of suspension leaves, etc.

But no spare shop ever asked me whether the leaves we asked for were for viking or cheetah. And I have never seen any marking on any part "for Ashok Leyland Viking / Cheetah". And except for the crown wheel and pinion, I have handled fairly every part of one or other bus we owned. Crown and pinions in those nostalgic days were indestructible. A 1968 model Chetah's Crown and pinion lasted for life time of the vehicle, and it did service as a school bus up to late 1990s. A 1979 model chassis' crown and pinion was due for replacement by 1986. And then saw a 1984 model bus (not ours) with a howling Crown and pinion in 1988.

Being products from the license / permit raj, I feel that the difference was only in the wheel bases.

Dunno about your other questions.
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Old 4th November 2010, 21:32   #201
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A huge fleet of CNG low-floor AL buses (looking identical to the Kinglong fleet) was procured by BEST sometime ago, but I hardly see any on the road - whatever happened to them?
Huge? Only two such buses were procured, AFAIK.
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Old 4th November 2010, 22:12   #202
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I think tata's must have launched the 1618 from lessons learnt from the successes of AL12m.
Even if that is the case, i dont find anything wrong with that.
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Except the 1512 I won't be betting money on any of those Tata products, unless they stays in kerala market for more than 2 years.
Majority of the JNNURM buses Tata supplied (~15000) were 1618. They are in use with BMTC, KaRTC, MTC etc and are well accepted. Even the new KaRTC Rajahamsas are built on 1618, KerRTC yet to procure 1618s.
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There was a similar hype during the lauch of Eicher Terra and all in Kerala- But I don't think they are selling anymore.
Dont comapre Eicher with Tata, and the failure of Eicher may be more to due with its service network and availability of parts, rather than the engine itself. If you were in Transport business, probably you may not invest an Eicher or for that matter Izuzu at this time, not because they are inferior, but the they need to ramp up the service network and make the parts available more freely before small operators can look at them.
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Old 4th November 2010, 23:06   #203
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Who told TATA did something wrong?? Everything is fine in copying a concept.

THe JNURM vehicles are on the road for <2 years. I told only time will say the relaiblity of those vehicles. The Cummins engines, being proven worldwide , does not mean the product is proven-- while AL 12m has been in the market for more than 4 years and is a proven product.

And Eicher being in the LCV for long has a good dealer and service network. Only Eicher Terra failed. I don't know what teamVV meant by lack of service network, Do you expect a different service network with each product??

My point was Eicher sold initially, because it was cheap-- Once the market termed it unrelaible, it lost its share and finally died.

Regarding others, there was an improve 4XX called 412, while I was working there. It was Euro 1. Similarly there is a huge 12l AL engine called 680, which is still in production , used on tractor trailers and large tippers, which was in production as of 2007.

412 and 680 are inhouse improvements of old AL series. 680 was designed by British leyland during world war 2.

Seeing this I think AL has more production engine variants than TML. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Neptune
Hino 4 cyl, 6 cyl
Iveco 8045, 8065
AL 4XX series
AL 680 series

Can somebody give me the different engine platforms which TML manufactures, except 6BT and 697 series??
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Old 5th November 2010, 18:59   #204
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Is having a larger variety of engines a good thing? Also TML does not produce anything other than the 697 engines at present. Most of TML trucks today are sold with Cummins engines, either from TCL or CIL.

Also for peoples info, TML is in the process of designing its own engine, from scratch, to reduce future dependance on Cummins, as the old 697 engine has pretty much been stretched to its limits. Though this engine is not likely to come into production any time soon.
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Old 5th November 2010, 23:30   #205
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Is having a larger variety of engines a good thing?
Definitely yes. Would you say Maruti has to make only the 800cc 3 cyl??


Can I have references for the new TML proj, please. I get conflicting ideas on this thread

1, One TML supporter says TML wants to use globally proven engine.
2, Other says they are reducing dependence on Cummins by developing a new engine.

Pretty conflicting ........Huh??
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Old 6th November 2010, 11:30   #206
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Regarding others, there was an improve 4XX called 412, while I was working there. It was Euro 1. Similarly there is a huge 12l AL engine called 680, which is still in production , used on tractor trailers and large tippers, which was in production as of 2007.

412 and 680 are inhouse improvements of old AL series. 680 was designed by British leyland during world war 2.

Seeing this I think AL has more production engine variants than TML. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Neptune
Hino 4 cyl, 6 cyl
Iveco 8045, 8065
AL 4XX series
AL 680 series

Can somebody give me the different engine platforms which TML manufactures, except 6BT and 697 series??
Your observation on the variety of engines appears to be true.

Basically, 370, and the 4XX series have same crank shaft, block and head. And share most of the minor parts too. Only the pistons, sleeves, etc. differ.

I have not heard of teh 412 variant. Thanks for the info.

But afaik, 680 uses a different block. I have not seen it, only heard of it, and have some boats fitted with that engine. Actually, these are larger boats - 50 feet or longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
1, One TML supporter says TML wants to use globally proven engine.
2, Other says they are reducing dependence on Cummins by developing a new engine.

Pretty conflicting ........Huh??
Hey, are these mutually exclusive? Cant these co-exist, as long as it rakes in the market share and moolah?
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Old 6th November 2010, 12:41   #207
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Exactly, why cant TML use both the globally proven Cummins engines, while still trying to develop its own range of engines.

Also, when I said "reducing dependance on Cummins", I referref to the fact that with future emission norms the 697 engine cant really be developed much further to make it compatible with future norms and requirements of higher horsepower. Thus the development of newer engines.

With reference to the larger variety of engines, why would a company want to produce a multitude of engines, when the same basic architecture can provide all the variations required. Of course when the 697 and B-series engines cant provide the required power and torque, TML does use all kinds of various Cummins engines, including some common-rail commercial vehicle engines for the Prima range. And now most likely it will also use IVECO engines for the high horsepower Prima range.

Also please keep in mind that TML is not in the business of selling engines for any other purpose.
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Old 6th November 2010, 13:40   #208
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Exactly, why cant TML use both the globally proven Cummins engines, while still trying to develop its own range of engines.

Also, when I said "reducing dependance on Cummins", I referref to the fact that with future emission norms the 697 engine cant really be developed much further to make it compatible with future norms and requirements of higher horsepower. Thus the development of newer engines.

With reference to the larger variety of engines, why would a company want to produce a multitude of engines, when the same basic architecture can provide all the variations required. Of course when the 697 and B-series engines cant provide the required power and torque, TML does use all kinds of various Cummins engines, including some common-rail commercial vehicle engines for the Prima range. And now most likely it will also use IVECO engines for the high horsepower Prima range.

Also please keep in mind that TML is not in the business of selling engines for any other purpose.
The cummins engine with an upgrade has been released . Cummins has an engine with a higher capacity engine for bus and commercial vehicles .

The new cummins engine is very much similar to the DEUTZ manufactured engine on the VOLVO .
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Old 6th November 2010, 14:32   #209
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[quote=directinjection;2126263]I don't disagree with what you have said but if you look at the entire history of TML and AL (and not merely the recent years), TML has been no less innovative. Rather, it has been more innovative. TML invested heavily in R&D and set up the ERC. In 1970s, AL did not have a facility like ERC or test tracks which TML had both at Jamshedpur and Pune. TML developed the more fuel efficient and powerful DI version (692 DI) of the original Mercedes IDI engine (OM 312), independently of MB.

It designed and introduced the semi-forward control 1210S truck in 1975 on its own. This truck was popular not only in India but also in many foreign countries like Ghana, Nigeria, Malaysia, etc. where it outsold the comparable MB truck. This truck was even license-manufactured in Malaysia where TML played to the local partner the role which MB had played w.r.t. TML. The 160 HP 1516 truck (later redesignated as 1616) equipped with a factory-fitted, international quality, fully-built sleeper cab (which cab continues till today) was developed in late 1970s without any help from MB, except for the bigger 697 engine which had to be license-built. Later model developments like 1312 truck which competed with AL's Tusker (used a bigger version of 1210's engine, locally developed), 807 (four cylinder 495 DI engine), 610 (4X4 version of 807 but fitted with with six cylinder 692 engine) were all indigenous efforts. TML's diversification into the LCV business was an indigenous and highly successful effort whereas AL's effort was neither indigenous nor particularly successful. Within an year of its launch, the sales of 407 truck well more than the combined sales of all four Indo-Jap LCVs in the country. In 1988, TML launched the Tatamobile, India's first pick-up truck that was designed completely indigenously. Its derivatives (Sumo, 207, Grande, Safari) continue to be sold even today.



Are you sure about the Leyland engine easily complying with BS-1? AL had to go to Hino in 1980s itself since the Leyland engine wasn't considered modern and fuel-efficient enough. There's no doubt that the Leyland engine was very robust.


The leyland engine was modified through a variety of configurations and ,yes it complied with the emissions .


The biggest factor between AL and TATA is the political support . AL sold most of its products due to a better product . After the HIndujas took over it might be a different ball game , but in the 80 -90 periods Leylands sold just for their quality , application , innovations etc .

Forget the engine technology .. does TATA till date have any suspension technology ? They dont even have an AIR suspension till date developed on their own . AL has weveller , Air suspension for city buses , Tie up with TVS for air suspensions etc .

The cummins engines give shivers down the spine while idling , I dont know if it is a problem with the engine or the state of tune at various stu.


Do TATA vechices have five finger clutches ? Do tata vehicles steer fully ? they have only half steering till date . HMMM i could go on and on .
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Old 6th November 2010, 18:01   #210
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Forget the engine technology .. does TATA till date have any suspension technology ? They dont even have an AIR suspension till date developed on their own . AL has weveller , Air suspension for city buses , Tie up with TVS for air suspensions etc .

[/b]
Sorry to contradict you here sir, but the suspension AL uses is a TVS-WILRIDE Air Suspension Systems and are currently being manufactured by Wheels India Limited, in a technical agreement with TRELLEBORG.

I must also point out here that Tata suspension is supplied by Tata AutoComp, with its joint venture partner Hendrickson USA.

So both actually do not designed the suspension systems from scratch.

About the weveller system AL has, Tata says it has Rubber ended suspension. Both are basically same thing. So here both are on equal grounds IMHO.

Also please pardon my ignorance but what is meant by half steering???

Last edited by sumitkalindi : 6th November 2010 at 18:03. Reason: missed out the last part.
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