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Old 7th November 2010, 18:57   #226
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Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
gah!!!!

Steerability is measured by turning radius and steering stability. What has wheel turning radius got to do with this?
Turning radius depends on how far the front wheels can turn . If the front do not turn fully , will the vehicle achieve minimal turning radius ?
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Old 7th November 2010, 19:38   #227
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Different water pump . Normally a brass impeller water pump is used . More /bigger/better thrust bearings are used for crankshaft .Exhaust manifold is water cooled .To prevent corrosion chemical coating is used( i do not know the process ,but there are a lot of companies in europe that do the marinising . Good example would be DMV-bootsdiesel .
I have described the "process" of converting the AL 370 engine to ALM 370 in previous page.[FONT=Liberation Sans, sans-serif][/FONT]

AFAIK, the 370 engines came with brass impellers in water pumps. I have a few of them lying around, and sometimes give them to my kids as toys!!!

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I do not know if that is possible as the fuel will still be injected into the cylinder and there is a very big possibility of the injected diesel getting mixed with oil .
Who cares about oil and diesel getting mixed? Once the damage happens, what is important is reaching land safely.

Yes, parts of rings / piston falling off the piston and breaking the crank shaft is real. But in the high seas, what is important is safety, not minimising further damage to the engine.

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Normally ships and big trawlers have spare engines or engine parts and in case of ships , the ships engineers can even disassemble and reassemble an engine on the high seas or they can even perform emergency repairs and safely reach the nearest port .
What they would have are auxiliary engines. They would be of any use only the engine can be connected to the transmission system; possible only in case of hydraulic gear boxes. This is not feasible in fishing trawlers.

And crew on the boats were capable of overhauling an engine on land. On the seas, this simply not feasible.

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Turning radius depends on how far the front wheels can turn . If the front do not turn fully , will the vehicle achieve minimal turning radius ?
Both Tata and ALL vehicles negotiate same kinds of hair pin bends all over.
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Old 7th November 2010, 20:04   #228
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- STUs have seen maximum losses for AL. STUs like MSRTC have shut down AL depots (as in Bombay, Thane, Konkan region) and now I see most of the new buses are TML. KSRTC and NWRTC (in Karnataka) have also effected a major switchover.
AL has not completely lost BEST. The 800 non ac buses procured under JNNURM are ALs.

AL has clawed its way back into MSRTC too. Since the couple of years, they have reverted to their traditional allotment pattern (AL for konkan, thane).
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Old 7th November 2010, 20:53   #229
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[quote=BaCkSeAtDrIVeR;2132030]I have described the "process" of converting the AL 370 engine to ALM 370 in previous page.

AFAIK, the 370 engines came with brass impellers in water pumps. I have a few of them lying around, and sometimes give them to my kids as toys!!!

Hmm , the impeller might be brass , but the housing is still made of iron . Incase of sea water cooling directly , the salt water would eat the housing . The 370 engine that i had came with steel impellers .




Who cares about oil and diesel getting mixed? Once the damage happens, what is important is reaching land safely.
If diesel and oil does mix isnt there a big chance of fire ? Wouldnt the lubrication of the crankshaft be at risk ? Will the oil pump not fail ?

Yes, parts of rings / piston falling off the piston and breaking the crank shaft is real. But in the high seas, what is important is safety, not minimising further damage to the engine.

What happens if the crankshaft breaks ? and I do not understand , how would one operate an engine with the piston broken and still adhere to safety ?
I know the engine would fire up and run with a lot of vibrations ,but still ...


What they would have are auxiliary engines. They would be of any use only the engine can be connected to the transmission system; possible only in case of hydraulic gear boxes. This is not feasible in fishing trawlers.
Having auxilliary engines is meant for usage .. and most of the crew on board would know how to replace a busted engine .

And crew on the boats were capable of overhauling an engine on land. On the seas, this simply not feasible.

Well, what i meant was most of the crew on ships can overhaul an engine on the high seas . Not fishing boats . In chennai , the trawlers do maintain regular consumables like filters , oil , tools .
In India there is no concept of even choosing a marine engine for boats . After the Tsunami when most of the fishermen lost their boats and fishing equipment , I thought of getting into the boats and diesel engine business . The sales manager from BUKH engines came to chennai for a survey and he was taken back when he saw that the fishermen were using Greaves engines with a propeller .
They acknowledged that they would not be able to compete in an environment where people had no idea about marine engines .



Both Tata and ALL vehicles negotiate same kinds of hair pin bends all over.

Negotiating hair pin bends is not equal to the minimum turning radius .Especially when there is a tractor trailer combination the AL would turn much easier while reversing and loading
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Old 7th November 2010, 21:06   #230
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[quote=BaCkSeAtDrIVeR;2129893]I doubt that 40X seriens was used on roads; probably, the 402 was used in multi axle / heavy weight pulling tractor / trailer combinations. I am not sure.

The 402 was used in buses as well . The 370 series were used by STU and 402 ,411 ( i thik so ) was used by private operators . The difference was in the pistons , injectors and fuel pump . The Fuel pump used a bigger element , plunger and the nozzle had 1 more hole extra . The 370 had 4 holes in the nozzle and the Hino had 6 holes . I had modified a 370 bus to 411 .


All buses and 10 tonne trucks came 370 engine. Even the normal 3 axle tractor trailer (2 normal axles in the tractor, one rear axle in the trailer) type trucks (up to 20 TMC container) definitely used 370 engines.
The tippers used the 411 engines .



COmet ant Taurus were truck chassis.

Vikings and Cheetahs were bus chassis.

Main difference for the common man was that these varied in front over hang alone. Vikings had more front over hang, to accommodate a door in front of the front wheel.

But, not all chassis with good front overhang were Vikings.

There was supposed to be some difference in terms of thickness of suspension leaves, etc.

But no spare shop ever asked me whether the leaves we asked for were for viking or cheetah. And I have never seen any marking on any part "for Ashok Leyland Viking / Cheetah". And except for the crown wheel and pinion, I have handled fairly every part of one or other bus we owned. Crown and pinions in those nostalgic days were indestructible. A 1968 model Chetah's Crown and pinion lasted for life time of the vehicle, and it did service as a school bus up to late 1990s. A 1979 model chassis' crown and pinion was due for replacement by 1986. And then saw a 1984 model bus (not ours) with a howling Crown and pinion in 1988.

The leaves are measured in length and the leaves are differentiated using the centre hole .

Being products from the license / permit raj, I feel that the difference was only in the wheel bases.

Last edited by greatmana2000 : 7th November 2010 at 21:07.
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Old 7th November 2010, 22:22   #231
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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Hmm , the impeller might be brass , but the housing is still made of iron . Incase of sea water cooling directly , the salt water would eat the housing . The 370 engine that i had came with steel impellers .
I am repeating from my earlier post - The water pump casing is made of cast iron; and even in marine engines, it is fresh water that circulates in the engine's circuit. Fresh water is in turn, cooled in the heat exchanger by sea water.

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If diesel and oil does mix isnt there a big chance of fire ? Wouldnt the lubrication of the crankshaft be at risk ? Will the oil pump not fail ?
I will not rule out that happening, but has not happened in practice so far.

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What happens if the crankshaft breaks ? and I do not understand , how would one operate an engine with the piston broken and still adhere to safety ?
I know the engine would fire up and run with a lot of vibrations ,but still ...
I thought you understood. I said that the vehicle / vessel was capable of reaching some safe place / workshop. Hope you understand how that differs from normal operation.

I guesss "tolerance" would be the word. AL engines were tolerant towards component failure, allowing the vessel more chances to reach a point of safety.

Quote:
In India there is no concept of even choosing a marine engine for boats . After the Tsunami when most of the fishermen lost their boats and fishing equipment , I thought of getting into the boats and diesel engine business . The sales manager from BUKH engines came to chennai for a survey and he was taken back when he saw that the fishermen were using Greaves engines with a propeller .
They acknowledged that they would not be able to compete in an environment where people had no idea about marine engines .
Agree with you here.

But, what exactly is a "greaves engine with a propeller"? You mean an air cooled engine?

I guess you just saw the M800/Omni syndrome in operation - users choosing a model with lowest price in spite of better options with modern technology being available, albeit at a higher price.

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
The 402 was used in buses as well . The 370 series were used by STU and 402 ,411 ( i thik so ) was used by private operators . The difference was in the pistons , injectors and fuel pump . The Fuel pump used a bigger element , plunger and the nozzle had 1 more hole extra . The 370 had 4 holes in the nozzle and the Hino had 6 holes . I had modified a 370 bus to 411 .
I certainly would like to know which buses / chassis came with 4xx engines as standard / factory fitted option.

Did this involve any modifications to the transmission system? Gear boxes, propeller shafts, axles and/or diff. housings?

Did you mean 412 rather than 411 engines?

Quote:
The tippers used the 411 engines .
What model / capacity?

I have doubts that conversion from 370 to 4xx was of any use to the bus operators. In trucks, may be - it gave more torque, but not extra RPM.

Besides, was the gear box capable of taking the extra power and torque?

Quote:
The leaves are measured in length and the leaves are differentiated using the centre hole .
A clarification - AL leaves do not have holes. Instead, they have a depression, approx 1 inch in diameter.

OTOH, Telco buses had holes in the leaves. So a broken leaf simply meant two leaves - the operator would simply drill a hole in center of both the pieces, and continue using both of them - depending on size and requirements!!!

Last edited by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR : 7th November 2010 at 22:27.
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Old 8th November 2010, 10:36   #232
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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post

I must also point out here that Tata suspension is supplied by Tata AutoComp, with its joint venture partner Hendrickson USA.

After how many years ?We have air suspension in TATA buses only due to the compulsion of city buses which needed only air suspension .
Sir, I believe this is simply the case of demand and supply. I have traveled for a reasonable time both in south India as well as eastern India. One a heaven of AL another a playing field of TATA. As much as I remember Bus service network was better developed in Southern India than East. Passengers here in EAST have always preferred Trains. But the same people preferred Bus when they went to SOUTH. A typical type of travel would be " Take Coromandal Express to Madras (As it was known then) Then take the night Super to Bangalore. So the road travel being better developed there was demands and AL obliged with the Supply of air suspension. I personally have seen Air Suspension Busses in Southern India before I even knew that there can be this type of technology (I am from Eastern India). On the other hand here, you never think of bus. You would rather cancel your trip if you can not get a Train ticket, than going by Bus. So here there never had been a big Market preventing small operators from taking the plunge and get these advanced busses, Untill a big operator with Volvo comes, quite recently. Even they had to suspend operation in a profitable section for quite some time, as the Air baloons were getting damaged very fast due to pathetic conditions of roads. So almost no demand, so even if TATA had an option, we never knew of.

I would give a benefit of doubt to TATA here, since no one would lag in a department knowingly, if his competitor has a better Feature, especially if a simple joint venture can take care of the problem.

e.g. Suppose TATA joins hand with xyz company and get a truck engine that pulls 100 tons at 100 kmph and returns an average of 12kmpl, would AL be left behind?? No either would develop similar engine, and if not possible within a reasonable timespan, they would join hand with abc company and get similar product. Because that makes sense.


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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Rubbish . Leyland has longer and thicker leaf coupled with a weveller system . TRY running both buses or trucks on uneven roards . you will understand what a weveller suspension can do.
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Actually Sir, AL as well as TATA jnnurm Busses ride quality are quite similar, in kolkata. May be I am wrong but that was my personal feeling, after riding on both.
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Old 8th November 2010, 12:59   #233
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[quote=BaCkSeAtDrIVeR;2132172]I am repeating from my earlier post - The water pump casing is made of cast iron; and even in marine engines, it is fresh water that circulates in the engine's circuit. Fresh water is in turn, cooled in the heat exchanger by sea water.

I said direct sea water cooling ..

I guesss "tolerance" would be the word. AL engines were tolerant towards component failure, allowing the vessel more chances to reach a point of safety.

Tolerance dosent mean "having a broken piston inside an engine . Tolerance relates to quality of fuel , tolerance of the engine to use any kind of oil to run , Even with the rings worn out and even with consumption of oil , if the engine runs then it can be termed as tolerant . Not when rings get broken , crankpin , piston , connecting rod gets broken and the engine still runs .


But, what exactly is a "greaves engine with a propeller"? You mean an air cooled engine?
Yes , the Greaves air cooled industrial engine .



I certainly would like to know which buses / chassis came with 4xx engines as standard / factory fitted option.


Did this involve any modifications to the transmission system? Gear boxes, propeller shafts, axles and/or diff. housings?

Did you mean 412 rather than 411 engines? No , I am quite sure it was 411 .
What model / capacity?
All the private travels buses came with the 411 engines . More torque with the same RPM means different gearing ratios and crown pinion rations ,which in turn means more loading capacity and faster speed . It was the same viking chaisis . The wheel hubs were bigger than the normal 370 engined buses .


I have doubts that conversion from 370 to 4xx was of any use to the bus operators. In trucks, may be - it gave more torque, but not extra RPM.

With extra Torque and a different gear ratio , the bus would be faster at the same RPM . The crown pinions had different ratios .

Besides, was the gear box capable of taking the extra power and torque? Yes , that was when AL had redesigned their GB lineup and the 2nd Gear was prone to failure . They introduced gears with bigger diameter and much better strength . If you take a look at an AL GB and a Tata GB .. the Tata Gears look like toys , but the quality of material used in the Tata Boxes were much better , but ALL just have the gears over engineered for more durability .

A clarification - AL leaves do not have holes. Instead, they have a depression, approx 1 inch in diameter.

Sorry , i may be mistaken as I am out of the biz almost 6-7 yrs . So i think you may be right . But , the calculation of the springs remains the same . END to END or centre to end

OTOH, Telco buses had holes in the leaves. So a broken leaf simply meant two leaves - the operator would simply drill a hole in center of both the pieces, and continue using both of them - depending on size and requirements!!!

Yes , that is what we used to do . Similarly , I used to buy broken 407 leaves for my Mahindra van and do the above .
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Old 8th November 2010, 13:00   #234
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Actually Sir, AL as well as TATA jnnurm Busses ride quality are quite similar, in kolkata. May be I am wrong but that was my personal feeling, after riding on both.[/quote]

You might be travelling by AIr suspensions buses . Try the regular leaf spring buses
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Old 8th November 2010, 19:23   #235
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[quote=greatmana2000;2132684]
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Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Did you mean 412 rather than 411 engines? No , I am quite sure it was 411 .
There were both 411 and 412 series, both were very similar.
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Old 9th November 2010, 12:14   #236
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At last i saw two AL trucks on "Ice Rooad Trucks" - Episode 5. Otherwise it is all Tata, All the Himachal Transport buses (The "Green bus" according to Rick) are all Tata buses,
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Old 9th November 2010, 17:50   #237
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Last day i came across this add in one of the leading cv magazine. An add by TML for PRIMA trucks. It says "Italian design, American, European and Korean engines, Mexican chassis, Japanese & Korean sheet metal dies, German & American gearbox and Swedish fabrication. Tata Prima...built by experts from across the world."
I feel this sounds similar to the tag line of a leading Tea brand "Kannan devan" (Tata Tea) in south India - "Blended by nature, packed by Tata".

TML has really let us down. A company - backed by India's largest business group, having established R&D as early as 1970's, being worlds 5th largest automaker, dared to experiment with ACE, NANO etc and being the undisputed leader in Indian CV industry by volume for the past 60 years....is this what you(TML) could have done about the PRIMA? What is that TML is doing in Prima...assembling & putting a "TATA" mascot in front of the grill? The add says there is nothing in Prima for us Indians to be proud about.
Was'n't possible for TML to design & develop a truck completely in India for the world market. May be it may take some time & money, but still. And no other International player be it MAN, Volvo or Scania does not develop international products like this. They have their own engine, gearbox, axles etc. Basically a Volvo FM400 sold in india is same as the one sold in Gulf or African or european countries except for certain features added to meet the local regulations & customization (only variants differ....make is still Volvo!)
The engines of M.Benz cars in india are assembled by Force Motors, the axles of every 3rd truck in US is by Bharat Forge Ltd and like...But TML has let us down! Force Motors building MAN trucks locally in india with more than 80% local content has done a wonderful job in its capacity. Even MAN exports these vehciles branded as CLA (made in India) to other countries.
We expect Indian companies TML, AL etc to grow and compete with international players rather than sourcing from here & there anything & everything.

Another point, TML till date has not been able to start commercial production of any BS4 ICV, MCV or HCV model. The only price list available with TML dealers for BS4 models is of ACE & Magic. Be it BS1, BS2, BS3 and now BS4 AL leads the way. AL recently got orders for 150 BS4 compliant buses from MTC (it would be on merit because without ARAI or CIRT certified model they cannot participate in the tender).
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Old 9th November 2010, 20:58   #238
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It seems like the ad has created a very strong impression on you, though you have extrapolated marketing words to its limits. The Prima Range of trucks have been designed largely by 3 groups of people, in house ERC of Tata Motors, Tata Daewoo Commercial Vehicles and Tata Motors European Techinical Centre, all of which are fully owned by Tata Motors itself. Though it has to be said help from other firms who specialise in the design of specific components have been taken to develop the truck. But this does not mean TML has just bought out the best parts from all over the world and assembled them to make the Prima range.
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Old 9th November 2010, 22:12   #239
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It seems like the ad has created a very strong impression on you, though you have extrapolated marketing words to its limits. The Prima Range of trucks have been designed largely by 3 groups of people, in house ERC of Tata Motors, Tata Daewoo Commercial Vehicles and Tata Motors European Techinical Centre, all of which are fully owned by Tata Motors itself. Though it has to be said help from other firms who specialise in the design of specific components have been taken to develop the truck. But this does not mean TML has just bought out the best parts from all over the world and assembled them to make the Prima range.
But nothing about the indian participation on the ad. Maybe designed in Pune does not help sales??
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Old 10th November 2010, 09:16   #240
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But nothing about the indian participation on the ad. Maybe designed in Pune does not help sales??
How about "Coordinated in India" or at least "built for India ". I remember an ad for Renault Clio in UK which had a tagline saying French Technology engineered by British (or something similar). The important aspect was even though Renault has its own engineering resources not far from British shores they wanted to include UK's involvement to let people know and sell their cars. I believe Renault was (still is) struggling to become a mass player in UK when compared to Fords and Vauxhalls.
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