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Old 22nd June 2010, 11:31   #31
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The Axe is sturdy and the moment you see one, you know how good it is. Its well put together and has got tech. This Tata doesnt inspire the same in me. Looks like an attempt at a local garage.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 11:46   #32
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This does not look like an axe rival to me.
Many defence vahicals are special purpose vahicals, desiged to perform a particular task under certain conditions. Axe is one of them.

This looks to be for some different purpose.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 13:27   #33
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I am no expert, but the front seems to stick out too much from the front wheels, and this would mean poorer ground clearance when you are at the bottom of a very steep slope. But I am sure they would have though that type of details, it's elementary really.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 14:32   #34
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Default Some more grapevine

Hi guys

As i understand, this particular vehicle - The LSV - light specialist Vehicle is fitted with a 125 BHP 497 engine from Tatas and is mated to an Allison 1000 series automatic transmission which is rated till 210 BHP(intended for truck applications). This looks like a slight misfit to me as the engine- torque converter matching has to be spot on to make the most of the engine's power and transmit it on ground. It is understood that even with 125 HP and over 240 Nm of torque dished out by the engine, this vehicle is only capable of 105 kmph topspeed( of - course i agree that top speed for this category of vehicles do not really matter). According to Allison website, the transmission is rated for 200 BHP & over 1100 Nm with a 7.5 Ton GVW. Mahindra axe on the other hand plays it safe with a 2600 cc SSangyong engine and a GM automatic (intended for road car/pick up applications)
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Old 22nd June 2010, 16:05   #35
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Looks dont matter, but cant help saying its so ugly. Quite resembles the 2D car pictures i used draw when in school.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 17:32   #36
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The Army has been undertaking trials of these vehicles close to two years now. Strangley the timeframe given to the companies to put their bids in was not much and most of them put together designs and prototypes within a very tight schedule. One would have thought it will make more sense in taking time and getting the design right rather than having all the time in the world to test an unsatisfactory solution.

I am not convinced about the way Tata's concept looks or the powertrain M&M has put together for the Axe. Perhaps the final deciding factors for such tenders are not design and engineering.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 18:03   #37
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Default What Tata id doing with this vehicle makes perfect sense.

It seems like bhpians are confused as why Tata would make such a vehicle.

But it makes perfect sense, as it is taking part in Army's Light Support Vehicle competition which is for only ~8000 LSVs. The trials started in 2007(if my memory serves me well) and was supposed to have taken 3 years to complete.

When the trials started it had :- Tata Motors LSV, Ashok Leyland LSV, Mahindra's badgejob Axe, Vectra & Flyer from Ordnance Factory Board. If Bhpians want Army support vehicles to be hot, then they should take a look at our desi Flyer which looks lot like Axe but hotter.

In the trials, while Tata failed on the looks Mahindra's vehicles failed to even complete the trial(in desert trials) while rest of the vehicles completed required kms. That is why Axe is probably Axed from the competition. Ordinance factory boards Vectra performed the best of all vehicles while flyer didn't do so well.


Now the reason for ugliness of Tata LSV, is that competition has been designed is such a way that vehicles have to comply with GSQR and from those vehicles the cheapest would be chosen.

With short production runs, high development cost would have mean higher cost. Also even if Mahindra Axe would have completed the trials, even then the fact that it was imported would have made it the most expensive in all vehicles..

And that is why Tata, spent cautiously in development knowing well the cheapest of GSQR complying vehicle will win.

Last edited by anmol2k4 : 22nd June 2010 at 18:12.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 18:56   #38
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Yes, the vehicles were even taken to Leh for High Altitude Tests... A picture is already available in another thread, here.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 20:14   #39
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@ Anmol2k4 "And that is why Tata, spent cautiously in development knowing well the cheapest of GSQR complying vehicle will win."

For more on these trials, check out Col Ajai Shukla's blog 'Broadsword' - of Feb 2008

It appears that there were four vehicles competing - M&M's Axe, Tata, 'Vectra' (Ashok Leyland?) & the 'Flyer' (OFB).

A comment on that blog posted -
"texan350 said... The LSV trails have been completed a couple of months back. Only four vehicles completed the trials while the Mahindra has not been able to finish half of its required kms till now. After exhaustive trials in both High Altitude and Deserts the vehicles can be sorted out in three categories. First being the dependable,powerful and basic rugged design Vectra and Ashok Leyland LSV. the second category is the fancy but fragile Mahindra and Flyer. The Tata vehicle's performance has been the worst and it has almost broken into pieces during the trials."

So then, does anybody know which vehicle won?

Last edited by Rigid Rotor : 22nd June 2010 at 20:31.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 20:30   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigid Rotor View Post
@ Anmol2k4 "And that is why Tata, spent cautiously in development knowing well the cheapest of GSQR complying vehicle will win."

For more on these trials, check out Col Ajai Shukla's blog 'Broadsword' -

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/...rt.htmldetails

It appears that there were four vehicles competing - M&M's Axe, Tata, 'Vectra' (Ashok Leyland?) & the 'Flyer' (OFB).

A comment on that blog posted -
"texan350 said... The LSV trails have been completed a couple of months back. Only four vehicles completed the trials while the Mahindra has not been able to finish half of its required kms till now. After exhaustive trials in both High Altitude and Deserts the vehicles can be sorted out in three categories. First being the dependable,powerful and basic rugged design Vectra and Ashok Leyland LSV. the second category is the fancy but fragile Mahindra and Flyer. The Tata vehicle's performance has been the worst and it has almost broken into pieces during the trials."

So then, does anybody know which vehicle won?
I do not know which Ajay Shukla blog you are referring too the link is broken but Ajay Shukla heaps prasies on Axe in another blog which actually failed to complete the trials. Going by his Volta face on Arjun vs T90 after years of scorn on Arjun I this this is very much normal for him.

Well going by this comment on his blog tata vehicle can not be worst performer because it did complete trials where as Axe failed may be second from the bottom atleast it completed the trials right.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 20:56   #41
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@Amitk26 - Yes I'm not able to get the link going - try Broadsword and find the blog in Feb 2008 on the Winter trials - not too difficult.
- That comment on Tata is not by Col Shukla - its been posted there. Shukla appeared to favour the Axe in his post. There are a couple of other comments also posted there - appear to be suggesting similar results.

- The question is which vehicle was finally selected ?
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Old 22nd June 2010, 22:50   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigid Rotor View Post
@ Anmol2k4 "And that is why Tata, spent cautiously in development knowing well the cheapest of GSQR complying vehicle will win."

For more on these trials, check out Col Ajai Shukla's blog 'Broadsword' - of Feb 2008

So then, does anybody know which vehicle won?
I already have bharat-rakshak shuklaji, aroorji and ramanjis blog etc on speeddial.

And regarding your query, I don't think i read any report that army have concluded trials. So don't think anyone have won..yet.

Also looking at how good OFB DRDO etc are good at making prototypes, and how bad they are at manufacturing. Why didn't the private players collaborate with DRDO and OFB rather than going alone with no experience or simply bringing Israeli vehicle into competition which was not made based upon our GSQR.

It is sad when I see desi private players not collaborating with desi PSUs.
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Old 23rd June 2010, 21:26   #43
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Who cares a damn about how this vehicle looks. In combat, what counts is whether it does the job. One look at the tyre pattern and you know that Tata means business. Contrary to the opinions on this thread, I hope Tata doesn't bother about the design and instead, allocates its resources to load carrying capability, offroad ability, tough-as-nails reliability and performance.

I'm a huge fan of the Mahindra Axe. But am equally happy to see Tata's attempt...after all, competition will make either company push harder. Defense orders can be profitable, and come with an element of nationalistic pride. Mahindra & Tata are not going to let go easy.

Nice scoop BTW.
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Old 24th June 2010, 03:12   #44
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I hope that the Hummer lookalike does not have the same performance as the real thing. The Hummers are notorious for requiring a lot of support in the way of fuel - in hard use they have about 250kms of safe range. The width and turning circle of the things has also restricted their use in Afghanistan. BTW the civvy Hummer is just a Chevrolet Suburban with a Hummer lookalike body bolted onto it.

The Landrover long range patrol 6x6 Perenties and the newer Bushmasters produced by Thales seem to be the way to go - good range 1000kms plus. Self contained, good armour to protect the crews from roadside bombs and mines. Most armies now seem to fight anti insurgency/terrorist wars so in many ways the Hummers are an out of date monster from the late 1970s.
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Old 24th June 2010, 09:40   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'm a huge fan of the Mahindra Axe. But am equally happy to see Tata's attempt...after all, competition will make either company push harder. Defense orders can be profitable, and come with an element of nationalistic pride. Mahindra & Tata are not going to let go easy.
Well said, Mahindra's partner in commercial vehicles, Navistar also got expertise in Military vehicles, Navistar supplies vehicles to US Army. Hopefully Mahindra could leverage this. In case of Tatas, Land Rover is an expert in off road systems, Hopefully they could leverage the designs of Land Rover, and built sturdy off road vehicles for the army.
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