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Old 16th September 2010, 22:39   #61
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Originally Posted by smashnerd View Post
Raj,

A certain travel bus operator has got a new Prakash built A/C bus with a roof mounted A/C unit. I think it's the same model as ABTX buses on a Viking 222' chassis. It had the sliding glasses that you mentioned. I'm not sure on the horsepower rating of the bus though.

Seems there is ample demand for such a bus. I am understanding your point on getting a more fuel efficient engine while fitting a slave motor for the A/C.

It's a safe bet.
Frankly, i am still confused on whether to go for slave engine for AC. Many are saying that the slave engine is more prone to issues.

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Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Raj, just saw this thread.

Frankly, I am a bit surprised. I trust that heavy vehicle operation is mostly a matter of mix and match, from the various chassis, engine, body and seating configurations available.
why?

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1. Seating capacity:-

I am most confused by your talk on seating capacity. Have you decided on the configuration? You can have non-push back seats in the 2 x 2 seating configuration. Some of the Ernakulam - Bangalore buses also have 1 x 2 seating configuration.

You can easily adjust the leg room to accomodate the extra seats. But, the question is, do you really want to do that? Will your tour operator guy accept 2x3 configuration buses, even if A/C?
yes, it would be 40-45 2x2 P/B seater.

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Most coach builders source their seats from Harita Grammer. I guess you already know that.
yes.

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I strongly suggest you pay a visit to the Madurai Irizar TVS factory. ( believe is they are based in Madurai). They will have better information on the chassis configurations available. I feel that 7-8 year old Irizar TVS built KeSRTC buses are less rackety than even the latest builds from KeSRTC's own yards; and even 3-4 year old luxury buses. Irizar or no Irizar, TVS coach has good build quality.
even i have heard that their coaches are really good but too expensive. i would be sending them a mail to gather a few info & if everything goes well, we would be visiting their office soon.

Quote:
I have glanced through AL web site, and find that 12 M chassis offers longer chassis options than Vikings. The longest viking 10816 MM, shortest 12M is 11800 mm. The still longer 12 M is 12000 mm - which is 12 meters. Take the longest chassis.
yes, 12M would be a better bet as the chassis is long but at the same time, 12M has no BS3 engines. the only one is 181 hp but that is too much for our usage.

Quote:
2. Engine:-

Since you intend the bus to be on marriage runs, stick to smaller engines. Remember that BSIII means slightly less power from engine, unless there is some major miraculous tune up. This also means better FE.
thats why i am insisting on smaller engines. As you rightly said, BS3 would be more fuel efficient. and we dont want to buy a BS2 engine as we already know its production would be stopped soon. so i assume, resale value of a BS3 bus would be better than a BS2 bus, say after 4-5 years.

Quote:
3. A/C.

I believe that there are multiple brands available. Whether the a/c works off the main engine or separate engine is something dependent on the brand? Even if a separate engine is required, surely, you have some control over which engine is used? For marriage parties, etc, plenty of idling would be involved - 20 minutes to 30 minutes at each end. I would prefer a 25HP one or two cylinder baby engine do the idling rather than 180+ HP running off six cylinders doing the job. Maintenance? Do preventive maintenance.
but are these engines prone to issues? even if we do preventive maintainence, isnt the AC running on the stock engine a more "safer bet" in the long run? maybe not efficient, but dependable... what do you say?

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Regarding "sabarimala tourists do not want a/c" - is exactly what they used to say before the LF / SLF JNURRM buses were launched. Just stand on the road side of any highway in KL during sabarimala season, and count the number of a/c cars plying the route.
now thats some news to me!

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BTW, have the existing buses achieved cash break even? Are you paying the HP / finance installments on time?
yes, we have been paying all the installments on time.


I would also like to know-

1) what are the pros & cons of buying a 165 hp BS3 Viking 222" chassis when compared to a 181 hp BS3 12M ALPSV 4/117 chassis?

2) will the other models of 12M (164 hp & 177 hp) be available with BS3 soon? if yes, i would like to go with the 164 hp 12M chassis. in the brochure, its mentioned the 164 hp has the provision of an engine driven AC.

3) what about the 132 hp Viking 222" chassis? is 132 hp enough to take the load of the AC?
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Old 17th September 2010, 01:34   #62
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Frankly, i am still confused on whether to go for slave engine for AC. Many are saying that the slave engine is more prone to issues.
Nobody makes "slave" engines. What is used as slave engines are engines manufactured for some purpose. If Brand X has problems, go for brand Y.

Remember the Apple Mac philosophy? Each moving part increases the chances of failure. In that sense, slave engines are problematic. My suggestion is, talk to the body builders and owners / operators direct.

There are'nt many operators / owners on this forum. Face it.

Keep your mind open, and take feed back from actual operators and owners. I have serious doubts that they hang around here.

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yes, it would be 40-45 2x2 P/B seater.
So, go talk to a body builder. If 222 is the overall length of the chassis, it is all more better.

Remember that length of the bus and ability to go through narrow roads are mutually exclusive.


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even i have heard that their coaches are really good but too expensive.
You can pay 10 - 15% extra? I am NOT recommending, because I am not sure of their current standards. I am a former owner of a TVS built body, and have owned other TN made bodies. The premium is worth it.

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yes, 12M would be a better bet as the chassis is long but at the same time, 12M has no BS3 engines. the only one is 181 hp but that is too much for our usage.
Do not go by the website. I suspect I have missed the 222 option on the site. If that is not there, there are plenty of other things missing.

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thats why i am insisting on smaller engines. As you rightly said, BS3 would be more fuel efficient. and we dont want to buy a BS2 engine as we already know its production would be stopped soon. so i assume, resale value of a BS3 bus would be better than a BS2 bus, say after 4-5 years.
Partly right.

Other side of what I said:-

1. Roads are getting better. You may want a better engine after all. Heck - NHs are supposed to 45 Meters wide now.

2. This BSi/II/III thingie - is mostly achieved through fuel injection jugaad. (ok, ok, not jugaad, but hitech things).

What is more important is BSIII, not power. Go for BS III if that is what is available. Do not regret about opting for a more powerful engine, simply because it is the only option.

Let me rephrase that.

Between a 50 HP BS IIand 75 HP BS III, I would choose the 75 HP one.

Between 75 HP BS III and 80 HP BS III, I would choose the 75 HP one.

Between 75 HP BS II and 125 HP BS III, I would choose the BS III one. (note the emphasis on BS, not just the power).

I have serious misgivings about emission norms influencing resale value. What would actually influence resale price would be condition of body (make may not matter), engine quality, and YOUR track record.

Guess that answers most of your questions.

PS:- And what happened to the suspension problem with one of your other buses?
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Old 17th September 2010, 09:54   #63
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Frankly, i am still confused on whether to go for slave engine for AC. Many are saying that the slave engine is more prone to issues.
Its only my opinion.
Say you choose a slave engine option today.
In another 5years there may be a situation in which AC buses are running only with main engine. Then we may not be in a position to sell our bus as a AC bus rather than as a Non AC push back seater.

So think twice before you go for any option.


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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
even i have heard that their coaches are really good but too expensive. i would be sending them a mail to gather a few info & if everything goes well, we would be visiting their office soon.
Cost wise check personally with TVS.They sure will not be "too expensive category"

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
yes, 12M would be a better bet as the chassis is long but at the same time, 12M has no BS3 engines. the only one is 181 hp but that is too much for our usage.
AFAIK, AL will completely revamp the existing bus product port folio in upcoming months. So do check personally with AL representative and understand the current product offering in BS3.

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
so i assume, resale value of a BS3 bus would be better than a BS2 bus, say after 4-5 years.
Yes, That's true. BS3 will yield better resale value.


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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
but are these engines prone to issues? even if we do preventive maintainence, isnt the AC running on the stock engine a more "safer bet" in the long run? maybe not efficient, but dependable... what do you say?
May be this what do you say? is for "Backseatdriver" but I wanted to add one more point.
Those engines as told by Backseatdriver its X or Y.Plz speak to owners/drivers and choose if you really wanted to go for it. Don predict things and take a call.
Still my advice is to stick to an stock engine




Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
I would also like to know-

1) what are the pros & cons of buying a 165 hp BS3 Viking 222" chassis when compared to a 181 hp BS3 12M ALPSV 4/117 chassis?
Thats not bad. 165hp 222" viking can do its job fairely well.
Its an balanced product for Ac and N AC type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
2) will the other models of 12M (164 hp & 177 hp) be available with BS3 soon? if yes, i would like to go with the 164 hp 12M chassis. in the brochure, its mentioned the 164 hp has the provision of an engine driven AC.
As told plz check with AL representative for their 12M BSIII migration models, current offerings and migration plan, availability

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
3) what about the 132 hp Viking 222" chassis? is 132 hp enough to take the load of the AC?
A big "No"
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Old 17th September 2010, 10:28   #64
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Thanks backseatdriver & Ashley.

Right now, i am pretty clear with what i want. I spoke to Prakash & Sisira & we have arrived to the following conclusion:

1) The chassis would be mostly the 165 hp BS3 Viking. The 181 hp 12M is too powerful for our usage. Moreover, according to Sisira, 35 P/B seats are more than enough. So, Viking is sufficient.

2) The AC would be driven off the stock engine. Sisira says there are many "slave" engine options for the AC such as mahindra jeep or ambassador engine. but eventually, they start giving issues. so, no additional engine.

3) Preferred coach builder would be Irizar or Prakash. I would be sending a mail today to Irizar to know about the specs & approx pricing. i am not able to locate their website! if everything seems right, we would be paying a visit to the Irizar factory. I would also go to Prakash as i would like to see their new model - P9000.
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Old 17th September 2010, 11:28   #65
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
2) The AC would be driven off the stock engine. Sisira says there are many "slave" engine options for the AC such as mahindra jeep or ambassador engine. but eventually, they start giving issues. so, no additional engine.
Boy!!! Is'nt that too powerful? I was thinking that they were using some one or 2 cyl small engine. What is the power consumption of an a/c unit?

And yes, now you are on right track. But, I do suggest you still talk to couple of more operators. You guys in Alleppey would have some proximity to fish processing plants between Aroor and Quilon. They use refregerated trucks. Just talk to them about a/c.

And of course, the sales guys for the a/c too.

One thing I had in mind while thinking of a/c option is the complaint several people hae made - staffers switching off the a/c after 2-3 hours on the road. Why? Does this have anything to do with how the a/c is powered?

Have you investigated the a/c system of volvos?
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Old 17th September 2010, 11:38   #66
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
...
2) The AC would be driven off the stock engine. Sisira says there are many "slave" engine options for the AC such as mahindra jeep or ambassador engine. but eventually, they start giving issues. so, no additional engine.
Are you sure they said Mahindra Jeep or Amby engine? Because IIRC, the whirr of the auxiliary engine found in some earlier B'lore - Kottarakkara KeSRTC SDX buses (Irizar-TVS bodied AL 12M bus) resembled that of the small engines used in portable gensets (kerosene/petrol).

Anyway, good that you decided on running the AC off the stock engine - less moving parts, less issues.

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
...I would also go to Prakash as i would like to see their new model - P9000.
Do post some pics/scanned brochures of the P9000, if possible.
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Old 17th September 2010, 11:43   #67
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Thanks backseatdriver & Ashley.

3) Preferred coach builder would be Irizar or Prakash. I would be sending a mail today to Irizar to know about the specs & approx pricing. i am not able to locate their website! if everything seems right, we would be paying a visit to the Irizar factory. I would also go to Prakash as i would like to see their new model - P9000.
Hi you can check the following link

IRIZAR GROUP >> Irizar TVS

They have the India address and contact information on this page.

Hope this helps.
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Old 17th September 2010, 11:49   #68
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
The AC would be driven off the stock engine. Sisira says there are many "slave" engine options for the AC such as mahindra jeep or ambassador engine. but eventually, they start giving issues. so, no additional engine.
Mahindra engine are workaholics, i surprised to hear they start creating problems when what they do is only power up a A/c unit. Do what backseater has said, check with the allepey guys or talk to operator directly.
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Old 17th September 2010, 12:16   #69
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Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Boy!!! Is'nt that too powerful? I was thinking that they were using some one or 2 cyl small engine. What is the power consumption of an a/c unit?
yes, around 60-70 bhp! Sisira has around 5 AC buses & claims all operators who opt for slave engines fit these engines for the AC. does an AC need that much power? whats the point then?

Quote:
And yes, now you are on right track. But, I do suggest you still talk to couple of more operators. You guys in Alleppey would have some proximity to fish processing plants between Aroor and Quilon. They use refregerated trucks. Just talk to them about a/c.
Spoke to 2 operators. even they are saying avoid the slave engine, too much of headache it seems.

Quote:
And of course, the sales guys for the a/c too.
coming to that, my next question would be- which unit for AC?
popular choices are Carrier & Thermoking.

Quote:
One thing I had in mind while thinking of a/c option is the complaint several people hae made - staffers switching off the a/c after 2-3 hours on the road. Why? Does this have anything to do with how the a/c is powered?
maybe to increase profits. AC increases fuel consumption. rest assured, we are not interested in anything like that.

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Have you investigated the a/c system of volvos?
Good idea, i will have a look at that too. thanks.

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Originally Posted by silversteed View Post
Are you sure they said Mahindra Jeep or Amby engine? Because IIRC, the whirr of the auxiliary engine found in some earlier B'lore - Kottarakkara KeSRTC SDX buses (Irizar-TVS bodied AL 12M bus) resembled that of the small engines used in portable gensets (kerosene/petrol).
I am not sure as i have not personally checked but this is what Sisira does to its buses. I will have to enquire with prakash as to which engine they will use.

Quote:
Anyway, good that you decided on running the AC off the stock engine - less moving parts, less issues.
thats is my main concern.

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Do post some pics/scanned brochures of the P9000, if possible.
sure thing.

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Originally Posted by lionell View Post
Hi you can check the following link

IRIZAR GROUP >> Irizar TVS

They have the India address and contact information on this page.

Hope this helps.
yes, i did see this link & i have sent an email to the given address. i am waiting for their response.

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Originally Posted by prmd_cochin View Post
Mahindra engine are workaholics, i surprised to hear they start creating problems when what they do is only power up a A/c unit. Do what backseater has said, check with the allepey guys or talk to operator directly.
maybe its because the AC unit is located at such a place that access is difficult & basic maintainence of the engine is avoided.
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Old 17th September 2010, 13:17   #70
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
1) The chassis would be mostly the 165 hp BS3 Viking. The 181 hp 12M is too powerful for our usage. Moreover, according to Sisira, 35 P/B seats are more than enough. So, Viking is sufficient.
for Viking push back can take upto - 40seats
semi sleeper it can take up to 32
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Old 17th September 2010, 13:26   #71
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I have a sneaking feeling that they use the benemoth engines for a/c because that is what comes to their hare brained intellect. (hmmmm..... harsh words, but I have no choice).

See these links:-

Welcome to CarrierAirConditions

And google says that TVS are dealers for Thermo King a/c systems.

A 6 cyl engine drinks minimum 10 L diesel per hour. A 2 cyl engine would not take more than 2/3 L of Petrol or kerosene or diesel per hour. Ihave doubts that a bus a/c requires more than 2 HP. I may be wrong though. YOu should talk to a/c guys first, before you talk to the body builder. I suspect the builder may palm off what they are familiar with to you.

Worst case - you can design a small engine with self start motor (like in hero honda gen sets) and put them on removeable mounts for ease of maintenance. That will be the ultimate jugaad. For ease of maintenance, you will have to check what the maintenance guys are familiar with too. Look for what the guys around your place are familar with and competent servicing.

Edit - my limited knowledge tells me that running a load less than 5 HP off the main engine (it is 150+HP - whichever option you take) is economically senseless. Find out the power consumption you will require first.

Last edited by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR : 17th September 2010 at 13:31.
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Old 17th September 2010, 14:27   #72
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Booked the attached bus for a Kodaikanal trip next weekend. Its a brand new bus from Thrissur and just got RTO approval. P8000 body with slave engine to operate AC. 40 seat PB. When i visited the bus, only the conductor was available and he didn't know much technical details. Will try to gather some info on the tour.
Attached Thumbnails
An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered-1.jpg  

An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered-2.jpg  

An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered-3.jpg  

An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered-4.jpg  

An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered-5.jpg  

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Old 17th September 2010, 15:18   #73
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@ Ashley: Prakash says, for a 40 seater, they need 12M chassis.

@ backseatdriver: i understand what you say. but i suspect our driver/cleaner would be that efficient to maintain the slave engine. if at all in the long run, the engine does give issues, we will have a tough time repairing it.

the stock engine, since its powerful wont be as economical, but as i said, it would be trouble free & most importantly, wont give any issues. thats our priority.

i have noted down the address of Carrier & Thermoking's offices in cochin. i will have a word with them.

@ ontheroad: thanks a lot buddy. that was really helpful. i can see the side compartments has vents, so maybe that is where the slave engine for AC is installed. i can see he has two basstubes & two laser lights in the bus! is this necessary in an AC bus? i thought AC bus is all about luxury. such laser shows are preferred by college students right? will college students hire an AC bus?

Last edited by raj_5004 : 17th September 2010 at 15:21.
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Old 17th September 2010, 15:34   #74
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... P8000 body with slave engine to operate AC. 40 seat PB...
That's a Viking for sure. Looks like the 10816mm, 132PS version.

Would've looked better without the overdone graphics on the front, and the wheel caps.
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Old 17th September 2010, 16:08   #75
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Booked the attached bus for a Kodaikanal trip next weekend. Its a brand new bus from Thrissur and just got RTO approval. P8000 body with slave engine to operate AC. 40 seat PB. When i visited the bus, only the conductor was available and he didn't know much technical details. Will try to gather some info on the tour.
This is not what i want when i book an A/c airbus.
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