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Old 28th May 2015, 11:07   #91
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Default Re: Problems faced due to steering mounted controls - Suggestions please

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
In my WagonR, I had retrofitted Type III steering wheel that has 3 spokes and horn available on all the 3 spokes almost till where the spoke meets the wheel.
- Was this custom option offered to you by the dealer itself ?
- Possible to post some pics of the retrofitted steering ?
- Where and How much did it cost you ?
- Can the Airbag be adopted in such retrofitted steering's ?

Last edited by ampere : 28th May 2015 at 11:20. Reason: Formatted Post
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Old 30th May 2015, 18:53   #92
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars

An article (in two parts) published in the Australian magazine Practical Motoring explains the basics of how to hold and turn a steering wheel, a topic of much debate on this thread.

Part 1: https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car...-a-car-part-1/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Practical Motoring

(Excerpts)

Hand position

Imagine a steering wheel is a clock. Top of the wheel is 12, bottom 6, left and right are 9 and 3.

10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars-9_and_3.jpg

The correct position for your hands is 9-3 on a modern (less than 20 years old) car.

You may have been taught 10-2, but that’s wrong.

The reason 10-2 existed is historical. Back in the day cars had giant steering wheels, as there was no power steering. Take a look at this:

10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars-rmp_4625.jpg

There’s no way you could get your hands around that wheel at 9-3, so 10-2 was the logical way to go for most driving, with 9-3 available should you need extra leverage. Steering wheels also weren’t adjustable back in those days, and the seats were pretty limited too, so being able to grip the wheel in a variety of places made sense.

Now let’s look at today’s cars. We have power-assisted steering, so no need for lots of physical strength which means steering wheels are much smaller. Wheels are now adjustable for tilt (up and down) and very often reach (forwards and backwards). Seats can be adjusted forwards and backwards, and the seatback tilted as a minimum. There’s often also a variety of other adjustments.

The upshot is that the driver can be placed in exactly the right position relative to the wheel to grip it at 9-3. But why not 10-2?

The answer is simple – leverage and safety. Try driving a car with your hands together at the top of the wheel, the 11-1 position. It would not be easy. The reason is because your hands are close together – you lack leverage and feel. So you should move your hands further apart, and the further apart they are the better. Nine to three is obviously further apart than 10-2, so it’s better for feeling what the car is doing, and turning the wheel.
And then there's Part 2: https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car...-a-car-part-2/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Practical Motoring

(Excerpts)

THE FIRST RULE of driving techniques is to adapt your technique to the vehicle and situation. How you steer a 25-tonne truck is different to how you steer a racecar, which is different to how you steer a classic car, or how you steer a Ferrari on a racetrack. And you might well use a different technique when parking that same Ferrari. So those who say there’s only one way to steer a vehicle are just plain wrong, because “it all depends”. In Part 1 we looked at where to hold the wheel, and now we’re covering how to turn it.

The techniques
What we’re covering in this article are steering techniques for modern roadcars and 4WDs. There’s two main ones to use:
  • Shuffle (sometimes known as push-pull steering, or push pull slide steering, or hand to hand steering, or fixed arm steering)
  • Rotational (sometimes known as fixed-input steering or hand over hand steering)
The shuffle technique is what you’ve probably been taught when you trained for your licence. Keep your hands pretty much around the 9-3 mark, and make small movements to turn the wheel. Reach up to grasp the wheel, and pull down to turn it, while pushing up with your other hand – that’s why it’s also known as push-pull steering.

The rotational technique locks your hands at 9-3, and keeps them there, even as you turn the wheel, which is why it’s also know as fixed-input steering. Up until 90 degrees either way it’s easy, just fix your hands to 9-3, then it gets a bit more complicated than shuffling, and there’s three parts to it.

Beyond 90 degrees leave your hand at the bottom of the wheel, and continue moving the other hand, letting the wheel slide through the lower hand. As your two hands meet, move the lower hand to the opposite spoke of the steering wheel and pull down.

With this technique the only place you grasp the steering wheel is at the spokes. If you use rotational on a country road or racetrack then you are very unlikely to ever need more than about 110 degrees of steering lock, and if you get past 180 degrees of lock you’re either drifting or on your way to a crash site, so there’s no need to worry about grabbing the other spoke!

A myth about rotational is that if the airbag goes off and your arms are crossed over the steering wheel then they’ll be thrown back in your face. The Audi driver training team told us that tests have been done, and that simply isn’t true. But they said no tests have been done on the silly practice of hooking your hand under the wheel, which definitely isn’t recommended by anyone!

Here’s a video to demonstrate shuffle and rotational:

Rotational is not easy to understand, or to learn to proficiency, especially if you’re used to another steering method. But stick with it, the technique can be learned and once learned you never want to go back to wasting effort with shuffle. Here’s rotational in practice:

What to use when
The shuffle allows you to use a lot of force on the wheel, handy for older vehicles without power steering. It is also a great technique to use when driving 4WDs offroad because both hands are available to keep the wheel steady over rocks and ruts, and you can easily move a hand to operate UHF radios, locking differentials and all sorts of other controls. Around town it is useful in many situations because you can easily operate the controls such as indicators, because your hands are always close to 9-3. The shuffle or push-pull is simple, safe, and easy to learn but not always the most effective technique which is why most people don’t use it once they’ve passed their test.

The rotational technique is what you want at once you’re out of the ‘burbs, and maybe even before then. The main advantages over shuffle are less effort, it’s easy to return the wheel to centre so you’re smoother, and the you can turn the wheel. Out on country roads all these advantages mean rotational is the way to go, as it’s just much easier to smoothly control the car than with shuffle.

In motorsports, rotational is always used because of the speed you need to turn the wheel, and necessity of being able to return the wheel to centre instantly without looking. You cannot rely on the self-centring action of the wheel to do that, firstly it may not work, second it’s way too slow. Rotational is always used in motorsports, and it is taught by BMW, Audi, Porsche and every performance-oriented driving organization I’ve seen, so I think that says something.

How NOT to steer a car
  • Never hook your hand under the steering wheel rim – you don’t need to do so, and you have limited control over the car, plus you are risking injury in the event an airbag goes off.
  • Don’t let the wheel slide through your hands – it’s just not necessary, and you have limited control of the car.
Please click on the links to read the full articles.
The most fundamental physical skill in driving is steering. Pity we’re not taught the right way to do it – Here’s how to steer a car (part 1)
and
The steering systems in cars have moved on, so has your steering technique kept pace? Here’s how to steer a car – Part 2

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Old 16th June 2015, 15:06   #93
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars

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Originally Posted by SnakemanJohny View Post
Strange how most people seem to prefer 9-3 position as most comfortable ! Having started with the 10-2, I catch myself often in the 11-1 position during long drives when I need not use the shifter frequently -- so that must be comfortable for me.
Upon further observation I realised why I prefer to use the 11-1 position instead of the earlier 10-2. Because I drive skinny (narrow) Maruti cars nowadays ! 9-3 grip would be impossible with the available elbow-room, and I would bang my right elbow into the door even with the 10-2 ! Even now I hit the glass occasionally if I drive with windows closed !!
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Old 16th June 2015, 15:28   #94
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars

As some fellow bhpians rightly said, considering the type of steering, roads, traffic, speed and terrain, one would be comfortable in using varying styles of grip. I remember driving a half-full water tanker on the Devanahalli highway with its power steering gripped with one hand (rather with the base of the right hand) resting firmly at 4! and the other hand on the gear lever.

In hills where speeds are less, turns are tight and inclines more, which require quick shifting, I always prefer one hand at 4 and the other ready on the shifter. I remember doing this even with the manual steering of my Santro. With the right tyre pressure, balancing and alighnment, the steering is really agile and light.
Most city conditions require the same approach, which the power steering truly helps.

At the end of the day, what matters is the right control over the vehicle with sufficient reflexes to address the complicated traffic behaviour of our Indian roads / motorists / pedestrians / livestock!
Most times on the fairway, its just one palm at about 5 o'clock with the other hand ready to take over to support it for ensuring ur shoulders, hands and neck are not strained during the loooong drives!

This is my personalised way. Each one his own!!!

Safe Driving!!!

Last edited by Unavowed_X9 : 16th June 2015 at 15:36. Reason: Spelling error
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Old 4th December 2015, 11:52   #95
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars

Thanks for the thread, I'm just attaching a reference pic of skoda rapid, and yes even I also stuck to 10-2 position with Push-Pull method. That's very much easy while taking 3 point reverse turn.
Attached Thumbnails
10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars-rapidi03multifunctionalleathersteeringwheel01.jpg  

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Old 4th December 2015, 12:45   #96
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars

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Originally Posted by ravivrt View Post
Thanks for the thread, I'm just attaching a reference pic of skoda rapid, and yes even I also stuck to 10-2 position with Push-Pull method. That's very much easy while taking 3 point reverse turn.
You see the contours on the wheel, where the spoke meets the wheel at the 9-3 position? Those are for the thumbs - means they are designed to be held in the 9-3 position. In this steering wheel it would be difficult to hold it in the 10-2 position because of the shape
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Old 4th December 2015, 15:56   #97
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars

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Originally Posted by mallumowgli View Post
You see the contours on the wheel, where the spoke meets the wheel at the 9-3 position? Those are for the thumbs - means they are designed to be held in the 9-3 position. In this steering wheel it would be difficult to hold it in the 10-2 position because of the shape
Thank you for observation, I got the other way. Aren't they (humps at 10 and 2)given for grabbing the wheel? Since I own a Rapid I just referred that pic. My hands will be parallel to each other and my elbows perpendicular to each other when I grab wheel on 10 to 2 position. Is there some thing relating to elbows' angle ??
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Old 7th April 2018, 14:03   #98
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars



Not holding the steering is NOT an option in a high-power car being launched under full power from standstill. Watch the video from 4:27 to 4:53, and one quickly realizes the utter idiocy of the auto journalist, and why this country crashes powerful cars so frequently.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 7th April 2018 at 14:04.
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Old 12th April 2018, 19:55   #99
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Not holding the steering is NOT an option in a high-power car being launched under full power from standstill. Watch the video from 4:27 to 4:53, and one quickly realizes the utter idiocy of the auto journalist, and why this country crashes powerful cars so frequently.
Electronic Stability Control(ESC), won't it intervene in the situation above, if the vehicle starts to veer off?

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Old 12th April 2018, 20:59   #100
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Default Re: 10-2 steering position? Nope, it's 9-3 for Airbag-equipped cars

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Originally Posted by ecenandu View Post
Electronic Stability Control(ESC), won't it intervene in the situation above, if the vehicle starts to veer off?
A very important question indeed.

Electronic driver aids such as ESC/ESP can attempt to mitigate the effects of violent/wrong steering inputs as is evident in the video, and/or reduce the ill effects of simple physical forces acting in a wrong manner (gravity, centrifugal force, grip of tyres on road surface, etc.), by using certain sensors and the brakes in combination. A car without any steering control input (hands off the wheel) cannot decide for itself which way to go, and the same electronic driver aids will very easily throw the car out of control when under full acceleration. For example, a little piece of stone on the road can deflect the steering quickly enough to make the car crash fatally into a side barrier, before the driver can get a grip on the steering wheel and attempt to regain control.

It is therefore extreme fallacy to believe that electronic driver aids make a car"un-crash-able", though many believe so. Electronic driver aids are NOT the same as autonomous driving cars (though even those things crash as well!).
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