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Old 28th March 2010, 13:45   #3406
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@shaju/prateek - You can get by with Lightroom. PS is overkill for *most* hobbyist photographers. Its simply awesome.
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Old 28th March 2010, 14:10   #3407
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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
Thanks I was waiting to hear this. Is it not taking the fun, creativity and involvement out of phtography? All you gotta do now is put it in Auto and shoot away. I bet half of the DSLR owners do not know what is a pentaprism and how it functions? What exactly is TTL metering? What the relationship is between Aperture and Depth of field? How to sync your camera with the flashgun you're using? how to use flash to fill in? What's a Bulb mode exposure and why is it called so?
The real enthusiast is always manual, e.g. Tiff Needell won't be caught dead in a Mustang with an auto box!!
Well, IMHO most DSLR owners would know at least some of those. Or would have learnt them after they started playing around with one. I for one never used a SLR until the D came in - was a puny Yashica MF2 user in the 90s - but except for the flash part, know all of what you have said - and that is because I am not at all into flash photography

The 18-55 wont focus on any mode if you turn off the auto focus. Note that there are two buttons on the IS version - one to turn off the IS, and one to turn off the auto focusing!
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Old 28th March 2010, 16:00   #3408
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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
Is it not taking the fun, creativity and involvement out of phtography? All you gotta do now is put it in Auto and shoot away. I bet half of the DSLR owners do not know what is a pentaprism and how it functions? What exactly is TTL metering? What the relationship is between Aperture and Depth of field? How to sync your camera with the flashgun you're using? how to use flash to fill in? What's a Bulb mode exposure and why is it called so?
The real enthusiast is always manual, e.g. Tiff Needell won't be caught dead in a Mustang with an auto box!!
Umm, ok, even if it's shot in auto mode, why should it bother someone who prefers to shoot in fully "Manual" mode? Please don't get offended. All I am trying to say is that these days, a lot of people (especially folks who have used film SLRS) have been commenting on how the fun is gone and how irresponsible a photographer with a DSLR is. I was at a recent photo walk and an elderly gentleman made the same comments about youngsters shooting away without caring much and also about "photoshopping". I am not saying that such photographers do not exist, but generalizing that DSLR is taking the fun out of all of this is something I would not agree with. It still takes the same amount of effort (read back breaking in my case, when I shoot close-ups) to get the composition right.

And as far as the rest of the things you mentioned, here is my take on it:

what is a pentaprism and how it functions? - A lot of enthusiasts do understand how bad our viewfinders are and know what a pentaprism does.

What exactly is TTL metering? - Unless the enthusiast understands this terms, he/she would never be able to get the exposure right along with FEC n all.

What the relationship is between Aperture and Depth of field? - If an enthusiast doesn't learn this, he's doomed. Most of the photographs will be out of focus. This is one key thing which everyone learns when they move to a DSLR.

How to sync your camera with the flashgun you're using? - That's an easy one. Any person who has ever heard "strobist" and has tried off camera flash will know what that is. And again, depends on the interest of the enthusiast.

how to use flash to fill in? - Same as above. Not only fill in, but also to make the image solely with flash.

What's a Bulb mode exposure and why is it called so? - I am sure any person who has tried to do star trails or long exposures will know this.

BTW, I am just a 26 year old guy who got his first DSLR about 10 months back. I think I have made decent progress. All I am trying to say is, instead of making a generalized statement or passing comments on how the fun is taken out, if you'd help us understand more about the camera and how to use what and compositional aspects, it would be great. Let's look at progress, DSLRs are here for a reason and we can always keep sighing about old film SLRs (like how we sigh about our first love). But, let's accept the fact, film SLRs have been replaced with DSLRs and they are going to stay here. We could learn a whole lot of things from experienced folks like you. I hope I did not offend you in anyway and I have only tried explaining my observation and tried to bring in a bit of awareness about the modern photographer .
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Old 28th March 2010, 16:41   #3409
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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
The real enthusiast is always manual, e.g. Tiff Needell won't be caught dead in a Mustang with an auto box!!
Sorry, not buying this logic. Despite knowing all the technicalities you have mentioned, the smart money is still on using the advantages of auto focus, priority modes, bracketing, etc. Instead of repeating myself, let me refer you to an old post of mine.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1248321-post671.html

Modern facilities let you focus on composition. Composition is something no camera can do it for you. Why should I bother with manual focus when AF can do a better job? I shoot most of my shots with aperture priority, I use manual mode only with spot metering.

Yes, some people may prefer pumping their brakes instead of ABS, or prefer double declutching instead of synchromesh. But the majority moves on with the ease provided by the modern technology. Some things are just more efficient and better when done by machines.
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Old 28th March 2010, 18:06   #3410
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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
All I am trying to say is that these days, a lot of people (especially folks who have used film SLRS) have been commenting on how the fun is gone and how irresponsible a photographer with a DSLR is. I was at a recent photo walk and an elderly gentleman made the same comments about youngsters shooting away without caring much and also about "photoshopping".
BTW, I am just a 26 year old guy who got his first DSLR about 10 months back. I think I have made decent progress.
DSLRs are here for a reason and we can always keep sighing about old film SLRs (like how we sigh about our first love). But, let's accept the fact, film SLRs have been replaced with DSLRs and they are going to stay here. We could learn a whole lot of things from experienced folks like you. I hope I did not offend you in anyway and I have only tried explaining my observation and tried to bring in a bit of awareness about the modern photographer .
Maybe I'm also like one of those elderly guys whom you met. You're doing great. After having formally learnt Photography including developing b&w prints, I think I have a little nostalgia attached to Film SLRs. No doubt their era is long gone. I wonder if they'd stage a comeback?

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Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
Well, IMHO most DSLR owners would know at least some of those. Or would have learnt them after they started playing around with one. I for one never used a SLR until the D came in - was a puny Yashica MF2 user in the 90s - but except for the flash part, know all of what you have said - and that is because I am not at all into flash photography
The 18-55 wont focus on any mode if you turn off the auto focus. Note that there are two buttons on the IS version - one to turn off the IS, and one to turn off the auto focusing!
Really, that's great!

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Sorry, not buying this logic. Despite knowing all the technicalities you have mentioned, the smart money is still on using the advantages of auto focus, priority modes, bracketing, etc. Instead of repeating myself, let me refer you to an old post of mine.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1248321-post671.html
Modern facilities let you focus on composition. Composition is something no camera can do it for you. Why should I bother with manual focus when AF can do a better job? I shoot most of my shots with aperture priority, I use manual mode only with spot metering.
Yes, some people may prefer pumping their brakes instead of ABS, or prefer double declutching instead of synchromesh. But the majority moves on with the ease provided by the modern technology. Some things are just more efficient and better when done by machines.
Hey, you didn't buy my Tiff Needell exanple? OK, lemme try another one, how many Harleys come with automatic gearboxes? How many Rolls Royces have Mcpherson Struts? At times tradition rules.....
Double Declutching! absolute Nirvana!! am hearing this term after ages! absolutely the acid test to test someones driving ability, but non synchro boxes are passe, now. When I learnt to drive about 30 yrs ago a lot of it was on TMB trucks (Tata Mercedes Benz!) and I learnt to double declutch then, we guys were even tought the firing order of various engines like CJ3B, Nissan Jonga etc etc among other stuff.
Yeah, You're right, the times, they are a changing. But we must remember and know the past to appreciate the present better, mustn't we?
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Old 28th March 2010, 19:40   #3411
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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
Hey, you didn't buy my Tiff Needell exanple? OK, lemme try another one, how many Harleys come with automatic gearboxes? How many Rolls Royces have Mcpherson Struts? At times tradition rules.....
Double Declutching! absolute Nirvana!! am hearing this term after ages! absolutely the acid test to test someones driving ability, but non synchro boxes are passe, now. When I learnt to drive about 30 yrs ago a lot of it was on TMB trucks (Tata Mercedes Benz!) and I learnt to double declutch then, we guys were even tought the firing order of various engines like CJ3B, Nissan Jonga etc etc among other stuff.
Interesting experiences there... I still use double declutching in my CJ340 while shifting from reverse to first or vice-versa. Thankfully I don't need to touch throttle since idle rpms are acceptable.

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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
Yeah, You're right, the times, they are a changing. But we must remember and know the past to appreciate the present better, mustn't we?
If you know the past, you'll obviously appreciate the present, a lot more. But there is no point clinging to old things purely out of nostalgia. I see you are from military background, does anyone still prefer to use Lee Enfield or Baker rifles? I guess not.

PS: I know Baker rifle is a little too old to mention here, I am a big fan of old war novels.
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Old 28th March 2010, 21:58   #3412
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Interesting experiences there... I still use double declutching in my CJ340 while shifting from reverse to first or vice-versa. Thankfully I don't need to touch throttle since idle rpms are acceptable.

If you know the past, you'll obviously appreciate the present, a lot more. But there is no point clinging to old things purely out of nostalgia. I see you are from military background, does anyone still prefer to use Lee Enfield or Baker rifles? I guess not.
PS: I know Baker rifle is a little too old to mention here, I am a big fan of old war novels.

Wow, you still double declutch! one of my seniors always used to do it in his Ambassador Mark-I in all the gears!

Yes sir you guessed it right, I was in the Army, lost the use of my right hand hence not able to use a DSLR (or an SLR (7.62)for that matter!) making do with a canon S-5 IS!

I'm surprised you know so much about rifles. Though not in active service in any of the Armies, the Lee Enfield .303 is in active use with many hunters in US, UK & South Africa, it's Ammo is still being produced today! with a 185 grain bullet it is super accurate and very potent. For a comparision the INSAS/M-16 uses a 5.56 mm (.223 cal) with a puny 55 grain bullet which showed its limitations in the Iraq/Afghan Campaigns, hence the old retired M14s (using the 7.62mm round) were brought out and are in active service again!! The NATO 7.62x51 round, as you may be knowing, is but a scaled down version of the venerable 30-06 (pronounced thirty aught six) which itself is the largest selling sporting round worldwide. This round was made in 1906 to compete with the .303! On the other hand the Baker is long gone and forgotten for sure.

War Novels, eh? Guns of Navarone, Force 10, all the Cornelius Ryan books or something else? westerns too? Sudden and Louis L'amour books?

I know all this is way off topic and you're a moderator, but at times mods also look the other way, don't they!
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Old 28th March 2010, 23:18   #3413
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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
Yes sir you guessed it right, I was in the Army, lost the use of my right hand hence not able to use a DSLR (or an SLR (7.62)for that matter!) making do with a canon S-5 IS!
Captain Saab, I didn't guess, I saw it in your profile. And please don't call me sir, I haven't earned it (as in A Few Good Men) like you, and I am younger to you. Very sorry to learn about your arm.

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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
I'm surprised you know so much about rifles. Though not in active service in any of the Armies, the Lee Enfield .303 is in active use with many hunters in US, UK & South Africa, it's Ammo is still being produced today! with a 185 grain bullet it is super accurate and very potent. For a comparision the INSAS/M-16 uses a 5.56 mm (.223 cal) with a puny 55 grain bullet which showed its limitations in the Iraq/Afghan Campaigns, hence the old retired M14s (using the 7.62mm round) were brought out and are in active service again!! The NATO 7.62x51 round, as you may be knowing, is but a scaled down version of the venerable 30-06 (pronounced thirty aught six) which itself is the largest selling sporting round worldwide. This round was made in 1906 to compete with the .303! On the other hand the Baker is long gone and forgotten for sure.
No no, I don't know that much. I have used .303 Lee Enfield and Bren 7.62 LMG thanks to 3 years of NCC. Learnt about the Baker rifle through Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe Series novels.

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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
War Novels, eh? Guns of Navarone, Force 10, all the Cornelius Ryan books or something else? westerns too? Sudden and Louis L'amour books?
More like this: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1608336-post368.html

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I know all this is way off topic and you're a moderator, but at times mods also look the other way, don't they!
NO, even we are not supposed to do it. So let's stop this.
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Old 31st March 2010, 03:10   #3414
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Sorry, not buying this logic. Despite knowing all the technicalities you have mentioned, the smart money is still on using the advantages of auto focus, priority modes, bracketing, etc. Instead of repeating myself, let me refer you to an old post of mine.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1248321-post671.html

Modern facilities let you focus on composition. Composition is something no camera can do it for you. Why should I bother with manual focus when AF can do a better job? I shoot most of my shots with aperture priority, I use manual mode only with spot metering.

Yes, some people may prefer pumping their brakes instead of ABS, or prefer double declutching instead of synchromesh. But the majority moves on with the ease provided by the modern technology. Some things are just more efficient and better when done by machines.
I disagree on the AF front but that is pretty much. Specially using Primes at f1.2, MF becomes a necessary evil same applies in macro land where macros are at 1:8+ and breathing due to focusing is a huge issue.

Also i don't get as to why use Manual Mode with Spot metering?

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 31st March 2010, 13:30   #3415
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I disagree on the AF front but that is pretty much. Specially using Primes at f1.2, MF becomes a necessary evil same applies in macro land where macros are at 1:8+ and breathing due to focusing is a huge issue.
Do you always deal in absolutes? When I say I always use the car, it doesn't rule out using the auto-rickshaw when I don't have the car. Similarly, when I say I use AF all the time, it doesn't mean I refuse to use MF in all circumstances. If I am shooting macros, I do use MF if I feel the need. I have no religious dogma against using it. It is just a question of convenience.

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Also i don't get as to why use Manual Mode with Spot metering?
The spot meter in my camera is in the center. But the area I want to spot meter is rarely in the center of the frame. Therefore, after I finish metering and select my speed/aperture settings, I naturally re-frame the shot. If I am not in manual mode, the exposure settings will change. The other option is to use AE lock, but I don't like to use it as I find it less flexible than manual mode. Again, it is a personal preference.
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Old 31st March 2010, 14:24   #3416
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Do you always deal in absolutes? When I say I always use the car, it doesn't rule out using the auto-rickshaw when I don't have the car. Similarly, when I say I use AF all the time, it doesn't mean I refuse to use MF in all circumstances. If I am shooting macros, I do use MF if I feel the need. I have no religious dogma against using it. It is just a question of convenience.

The spot meter in my camera is in the center. But the area I want to spot meter is rarely in the center of the frame. Therefore, after I finish metering and select my speed/aperture settings, I naturally re-frame the shot. If I am not in manual mode, the exposure settings will change. The other option is to use AE lock, but I don't like to use it as I find it less flexible than manual mode. Again, it is a personal preference.
Sorry if I pushed you or something.

I was just referring to the statement that AF is better than MF. I use 50mm f1.2 and hence put the statement out there and f1.2 and Macro's are not extremes at all.
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Old 31st March 2010, 15:01   #3417
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I was just referring to the statement that AF is better than MF.
In most cases, where you compose and click within seconds, AF does work better than MF in the sense of convenience & quickness. Macros or portraits are special cases where you would be dealing with shallow DOF and MF becomes more handy.

In my original statement, I was responding a claim that said "The real enthusiast is always manual".

My first SLR (1989-93) didn't have AF, so I used to miss many shooting opportunities. An in-focus shot is always better than out-of-focus shots.
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Old 31st March 2010, 16:20   #3418
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If you have a cross type focus point, AF will be extremely accurate, infact more than the manual focus, esp for such narrow DOF lenses.
for accurate manual focus through the viewfinder, you need to have a specialized focusing screen. On a normal DSLR without specilized focus screen, there is a good chance of error in MF due to lack of clarity.
Moreover Penta-Prism Viewfinders are much better for MF as compared to Penta mirror viewfinders.
If your AF with 50mm 1.2 is resulting in OOF shots, i.e you focus on a point, half click, then shoot, and resulting pic has that point out of focus, then its a defect in your camera. Get it checked, or use focus adjustments.
A friend of mine had this problem with 17-50 2.8 from tamron, and he had to dial in +3 or so focus compensation in his camera(50D)
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Old 1st April 2010, 15:08   #3419
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I am a novice photography enthusiast using a Olympus PS 6.3-63 3.7 since 3 years. I would like to progress to a DSLR. My friend recently purchased a D5000 and I liked the feel and IQ of the camera. However reluctant to go for it due to lack of inbuilt IS. I believe Nikor IS lenses are expensive as compared to IS lenses from other reliable brands, please correct me if I am wrong here.
I am thinking of getting the D90 body from US/Japan and procuring a good non IS lens from India. I understand D90 is a semi pro camera, however I would like to invest in a good asset that will not need replacement for next 6-8 years.
Please advice whether this is a right approach.
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Old 1st April 2010, 15:44   #3420
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I am a novice photography enthusiast using a Olympus PS 6.3-63 3.7 since 3 years. I would like to progress to a DSLR. My friend recently purchased a D5000 and I liked the feel and IQ of the camera. However reluctant to go for it due to lack of inbuilt IS. I believe Nikor IS lenses are expensive as compared to IS lenses from other reliable brands, please correct me if I am wrong here.
I am thinking of getting the D90 body from US/Japan and procuring a good non IS lens from India. I understand D90 is a semi pro camera, however I would like to invest in a good asset that will not need replacement for next 6-8 years.
Please advice whether this is a right approach.

Buying a camera from outside india is as good as buying a grey camera from india. There is no major price difference but you will not get warranty in both the cases. Best cost effective way is to go for a sony, which comes with internal IS and the lens is also cheap and easily available these days. The new Alpha 230 comes with twin kit lens and also has an option for EMI purchase


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