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Old 25th August 2010, 12:52   #4816
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...continuing the above discussion on Canon, i have a limited budget and the only options i have is 1000d /450d (max 30k INR) as they are readily available with local dealers.

I need to know:
1. Any PRO's know the major adv / disadv for 1000d vs 450d ?
2. My kit budget is max 30k (after pulling all strings) so do you suggest
  • A) buy 1000d and invest rest 10k in lens ? (future lens upgrade later)
  • B) Buy 450d now, play with stock lens & upgrade as and when budget permits
3. How is performance comparison for both these cams ?

Requirements:
1. I will be keeping the cam for few years for sure
2. Preferably i will be buying canon as couple of frnds already have canon
3. Video is not a primary choice
4. I would love a technologically advanced system.
5. If you had a 30k budget, what would you pick ?? (from canon / nikon)

Please advice

Last edited by quadra : 25th August 2010 at 12:55. Reason: removed extra ? mark
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Old 25th August 2010, 13:15   #4817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quadra View Post
2. My kit budget is max 30k (after pulling all strings) so do you suggest
  • A) buy 1000d and invest rest 10k in lens ? (future lens upgrade later)
  • B) Buy 450d now, play with stock lens & upgrade as and when budget permits
I am not a pro but an amateur user but it is important to consider
Which lens you plan to buy in 10K and is it critical for your usage ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quadra View Post
3. How is performance comparison for both these cams ?

Requirements:
1. I will be keeping the cam for few years for sure
2. Preferably i will be buying canon as couple of frnds already have canon
3. Video is not a primary choice
4. I would love a technologically advanced system.
5. If you had a 30k budget, what would you pick ?? (from canon / nikon)

Please advice
Among the two Canon cameras you are considering I would say 450D.
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Old 25th August 2010, 13:18   #4818
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Originally Posted by shajufx View Post
Please understand Veeresh is only ONE, nobody can duplicate him . You will do the same magic even if its a P&S given to you, so let the less talented newbies like me hunt for the best affordable equipment one could.

I also feel, when someone is using a high-quality PRO level body and lens, people expect the shots to be of that standard if not the 'best'. Less miserables can produce pics that may or may not come into that PRO quality shots. BUT.. if someone is producing THE BEST from an outdated body, its not the gadget anymore, but the man behind it. If I have confused enough, thats all for now .
Shajuji,
You're being too kind. I was forced to choose an outdated body a year back because of budget constraints, and I couldn't have been happier. The things I have learnt with this body is just way too much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
What is confusing here ? Is the lack of some essential features on 1000D body and low noise related in some way ?

How come FPS is not everything for newbie but low noise is everything ?
How-come sensor is not an issue for 50D which has a good fan-base but only for 500D ?
Essential? I think that can be answered only by sriturl. I don't care much about noise (and I don't see myself supporting noise anywhere in my previous post) as I know I can remove it in PP to a very large extent and if I can't I'll look for places where I can use it asthetically than to lose details . Do I care about FPS? Heck no. It's a nice feature to have, but will it make my photographs any better? May be or may be not. For me, being intuitive, receptive and anticipating a situation plays bigger role than FPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
High FPS and faster focus is much more important IMHO for average user. More users are likely to shoot children running around ,sports, humming birds etc. then taking long exposure shots of night sky.
I don't agree to this at all. Shooting children running around, sports, humming bird etc. may require a high FPS camera, but it can be very well done with other methods as well. (Hint: See motion freezing using strobes). Don't see why I'd choose a high FPS camera unless I am taking photography up professionally and if I am, I'll not be looking at 50D or 500D, it'll be the 7D for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Even if usecase is long exposure shots then

1. Live view is very handy for long exposure shots, 1000D does not have it.
So even if I assume low light performance is very good on 1000D compared to 500D/50D/40D how does it help if I will be shaking the body peeping in to view finder? Of-course one can compose and then use remote trigger but it is about ease of use.

2. 1000D does not have spot metering , Now imagine you get a 300mm Image stabilized lens to fit on body but don't have spot metering essential for the purpose you bought that expensive telephoto ? Yes there are workarounds but then again ease of use suffers.
Live view and long exposure, am I missing something here? If you'd have said live with for macro, it'd have made sense to me, but long exposure? For long exposure, would you not be using a tripod, so where is shake coming into picture? And I don't need a remote trigger for it, I will set the mirror-up and use timer. Not that difficult to use IMO.

And why would other metering results not give me accurate results? Why is spot metering so important for bird photography? As long as I know my "zones" and where the metering can fail, can't I always compensate in camera for it? Do I need spot metering? If I need it that badly, can't I just use CHDK to get it on my camera? Again, essential? How? I am sorry but I am a dimwit when it comes to technology and how they play a role in getting good photographs, so I need more info. Ease of use is only limited by the familiarity with the camera and nothing else, IMO.

The confusing factor for me was about how you outgrow a body, when you say outgrow a body what does it mean? How do I know if I have outgrown a body or not?

PS: Posting it again, as it makes more sense even now,
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Old 25th August 2010, 13:19   #4819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
Confusing, IMO. On one hand you suggest that he might outgrow 1000D soon and on the other you say about how noise is not that big a factor. Then, why 500/550/40D over 1000D? I have a 350D since a year, and still haven't outgrown it. And does newer processor mean anything to a newbie like me? Does higher FPS mean anything to me? For most shooters, 1000D is good, save the difference and buy a LENS 50mm or a 55-250mm.
I have a 350D for over 4 years now. I have not outgrown it either, because I do landscapes, and focus speed and accuracy with a wide angle lens is not really an issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by shajufx View Post
Please understand Veeresh is only ONE, nobody can duplicate him . You will do the same magic even if its a P&S given to you, so let the less talented newbies like me hunt for the best affordable equipment one could.

I also feel, when someone is using a high-quality PRO level body and lens, people expect the shots to be of that standard if not the 'best'. Less miserables can produce pics that may or may not come into that PRO quality shots. BUT.. if someone is producing THE BEST from an outdated body, its not the gadget anymore, but the man behind it. If I have confused enough, thats all for now .
Definition of outdated varies for person to person. For example, somebody getting into poster prints may find 8MP outdated and may require atleast 15MP. Somebody shooting sports will find 350D 1000D AF module a limitation, hence they are outdated
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
What is confusing here ? Is the lack of some essential features on 1000D body and low noise related in some way ?

How come FPS is not everything for newbie but low noise is everything ?
How-come sensor is not an issue for 50D which has a good fan-base but only for 500D ?

High FPS and faster focus is much more important IMHO for average user. More users are likely to shoot children running around ,sports, humming birds etc. then taking long exposure shots of night sky.
More than high FPS, quick focus is necessary. As for low noise at high ISO, for people shooting indoors its more important than FPS
Quote:
Even if usecase is long exposure shots then

1. Live view is very handy for long exposure shots, 1000D does not have it.
So even if I assume low light performance is very good on 1000D compared to 500D/50D/40D how does it help if I will be shaking the body peeping in to view finder? Of-course one can compose and then use remote trigger but it is about ease of use.
Live view is more useful in macro than long exposure.
Quote:
2. 1000D does not have spot metering , Now imagine you get a 300mm Image stabilized lens to fit on body but don't have spot metering essential for the purpose you bought that expensive telephoto ? Yes there are workarounds but then again ease of use suffers.
The partial center area AF is good enough even for birding. There are very few scenarios where action shooter will be limited by spot metering. Other things are more important

Quote:
Spot on that's what I advised if you can get XXD body in same budget as XXXD it is the best buy. But 1000D is avoidable until you have extramly limited budget.
Agree with you on the 1000D, but for different reason, the AF module
Quote:
Originally Posted by quadra View Post
...continuing the above discussion on Canon, i have a limited budget and the only options i have is 1000d /450d (max 30k INR) as they are readily available with local dealers.

I need to know:
1. Any PRO's know the major adv / disadv for 1000d vs 450d ?
2. My kit budget is max 30k (after pulling all strings) so do you suggest
  • A) buy 1000d and invest rest 10k in lens ? (future lens upgrade later)
  • B) Buy 450d now, play with stock lens & upgrade as and when budget permits
3. How is performance comparison for both these cams ?

Requirements:
1. I will be keeping the cam for few years for sure
2. Preferably i will be buying canon as couple of frnds already have canon
3. Video is not a primary choice
4. I would love a technologically advanced system.
5. If you had a 30k budget, what would you pick ?? (from canon / nikon)

Please advice
1000D vs 450D? The deal breaker is the AF module. The 350D and 1000D have the older AF module. This sucks, esp if you put a polarizer, or are using a slow lens which is F6.3 or F5.6 at tele.
If video is not important 450D is actually the sweet spot. I do not have any idea about nikon, so cannot comment on that.

Before choosing a camera you should know what you will shoot, depending upon that you choose the camera. Landscapes are the easiest from a technical standpoint, since a wide angle does not require fast AF, and since you are shooting at F8 like apertures, even 100% accurate AF is not required because of large Depth of Field.
Only when you come to stuff like indoor, sports you worry about AF speed and accuracy. For long exposures you worry about noise, for handheld night you worry about high ISO noise.

So when you buy a body make sure you need it and it satisfies you needs. On this thread 90% of people who end up buying DSLRs would have been much better off with a mega zoom.
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Old 25th August 2010, 13:20   #4820
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I have fooled around with a friend's D5000 and for 30K I believe you can get a 5000D with a 18-55VR lens. Nikon has announced a 55-300VR lens too but I dont think it is available right now.

The D5000 has one feature my 40D does not. A tilting LCD. So often in a crowd I wish I coould shoot over the heads of people. If you have that need a tilting LCD with Live view can be very useful.
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Old 25th August 2010, 13:37   #4821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Definition of outdated varies for person to person.
Agreed, I use that word 'outdated' for every model that has an upgraded version in the market . In that sense, New Honda city, pre-face-lifted fiesta, pre-face-lifted wagonR etc are 'outdated' to me. Same applies to Nikon D300 as D300s is out and popular.

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
....A tilting LCD. So often in a crowd I wish I coould shoot over the heads of people. If you have that need a tilting LCD with Live view can be very useful.
Live view is a blessing when real MACRO is the subject. I find it really really useful and ease for the eyes. Now when you have a tilting LCD with live-view, its just an icing on the cake !
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Old 25th August 2010, 13:47   #4822
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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post

I don't agree to this at all. Shooting children running around, sports, humming bird etc. may require a high FPS camera, but it can be very well done with other methods as well. (Hint: See motion freezing using strobes). Don't see why I'd choose a high FPS camera unless I am taking photography up professionally and if I am, I'll not be looking at 50D or 500D, it'll be the 7D for me.
Well what about the budget ?? If you can get a high FPS camera in same budget as low FPS one why to spend on strobes ?
Child photography has to be spontinious you can not plan in advance and arrange lighting try using strobes for a fidgety child.
You can use it very well for capturing liquid drops or other controlled scenarios but not for spontaneous shoot such as wild life , children or sports.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
Live view and long exposure, am I missing something here? If you'd have said live with for macro, it'd have made sense to me, but long exposure? For long exposure, would you not be using a tripod, so where is shake coming into picture?
Even if you mount of tripod it shakes if your eyebrow / cheek bone touch the camera body.

Try taking a picture of bird landing on water late in evening where you can predict the spot so tripod is feasible but need long exposure due to low light.
Or a moon shot mounting cam on tripod with a non image stabilized lens with out live view. Complications are same as macro as per my personal experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
And I don't need a remote trigger for it, I will set the mirror-up and use timer. Not that difficult to use IMO.
You may use timer as well , but if you think mirror slap can shake the image definitely the impact of your face touching camera is more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
And why would other metering results not give me accurate results? Why is spot metering so important for bird photography? As long as I know my "zones" and where the metering can fail, can't I always compensate in camera for it? Do I need spot metering? If I need it that badly, can't I just use CHDK to get it on my camera?
CHDK is on P&S still not ported on 1000D AFAIK. For 500D someone provided image dump but port is still not out.
300D is the only DSLR with CHDK port available.

About spot metering , It is about ease of use again.

Try shooting a bird portrait with sharp eyes and beak with out spot metering and check how easy /difficult it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
The confusing factor for me was about how you outgrow a body, when you say outgrow a body what does it mean? How do I know if I have outgrown a body or not?
Outgrow in my terminology means if you feel that there are enough lack of features that can prompt you to spend money once more on a new body.
I see enough points in 1000D which can prompt me to upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
More than high FPS, quick focus is necessary. As for low noise at high ISO, for people shooting indoors its more important than FPS
I was necessarily linking high FPS to quick AF as i think both go hand in hand.
A camera with higher FPS necessarily needs faster AF.
If there is an example of a camera body with lower FPS but faster AF ?
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Old 25th August 2010, 13:50   #4823
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Not sure if its been discussed here.

But the D3100 is out, and it gains live view, a 14 MP sensor and higher ISO upto 3200. (And expanded to 12800).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
A tilting LCD. So often in a crowd I wish I coould shoot over the heads of people. If you have that need a tilting LCD with Live view can be very useful.
+ 100.

I find it easier to 'shoot' macro with my powershot S5is than with the EOS 550D.

One advantage though with the live view on the 550D however is the ability to zoom 10x into the image before pressing the shutter. Allows you to focus precisely on the eyes if needed.
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Old 25th August 2010, 14:22   #4824
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Try taking a picture of bird landing on water late in evening where you can predict the spot so tripod is feasible but need long exposure due to low light.
Or a moon shot mounting cam on tripod with a non image stabilized lens with out live view. Complications are same as macro as per my personal experience.
If you are shooting a bird with long exposure, you will get only a blur. Long exposure needs you to first frame the scene, and then click. Even with live view, if you press the shutter button with hand, you will get shake. So normally you need to use timer or remote release. In both these scenarios, once you have framed, why do you need to look in the viewfinder?
For a night landscape shot, you first frame the scene. Then you get away from cam, press the shutter on timer, or use remote release to press shutter simple
Quote:
You may use timer as well , but if you think mirror slap can shake the image definitely the impact of your face touching camera is more.
Why would you need to be looking at the scene while pressing the shutter. In long exposure, the stationary subject will always be there

Quote:
About spot metering , It is about ease of use again.

Try shooting a bird portrait with sharp eyes and beak with out spot metering and check how easy /difficult it is.
What has metering to do with sharpness. That depends on focus accuracy and depth of field
Quote:
I see enough points in 1000D which can prompt me to upgrade.
Yup you can, every person will have different requirements. The AF module of 1000D is a reason enough to upgrade for a birder.
Quote:
I was necessarily linking high FPS to quick AF as i think both go hand in hand.
A camera with higher FPS necessarily needs faster AF.
If there is an example of a camera body with lower FPS but faster AF ?
AF module and FPS are different things. FPS is dependent on the processor, i.e how much data can be processed in 1 second. It also depends on the speed of the shutter curtain.
A camera which does high FPS will need a faster AF, but there is no reason to assume that you cannot find fast AF modules on bodies which do not do 10FPS kind of speeds. 450D has a better AF module than 350D and 1000D, even though its not a sports kind of camera. Use the center focus point, and it will focus quickly even in not so good light and not so good contrast of the subject.
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Old 25th August 2010, 14:37   #4825
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
If you are shooting a bird with long exposure, you will get only a blur. Long exposure needs you to first frame the scene, and then click. Even with live view, if you press the shutter button with hand, you will get shake. So normally you need to use timer or remote release. In both these scenarios, once you have framed, why do you need to look in the viewfinder?
First what I mean by long exposure here in this case is 300 mm focal length with 1/30 or 1/60 shutter speed to compensate for low light.
Normally 1/400 is the min for sharp pic but late in the evening a tripod mounted cam with 1/30 works fine. Live view helps because you need to trigger at the exact moment like wings are spread or feet touching water. You can look in to the view finder but crouching to peek in for more then 20-30 min not very friendly on back and neck muscles.

This slow shutter speed of 1/30 may look normal but in this context given the focal length it is longer exposure then normal. This is very typical scenario for early morning late evening photography.
I do not see any alternative until I up my budget substantially and procure bigger better telephoto lens which works well in low light and are fast.

Hope this explains the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Why would you need to be looking at the scene while pressing the shutter. In long exposure, the stationary subject will always be there
Clouds playing hide and seek, swinging tree branch or birds /bats in the night for instance. A moon shot is not for sake of moon which everyone knows how it looks like. Here you do not want to induce any shake so live view with remote release works well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
What has metering to do with sharpness. That depends on focus accuracy and depth of field
And how exactly focus accuracy will be achieved for an object at a distance when metering is not accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post

AF module and FPS are different things. FPS is dependent on the processor, i.e how much data can be processed in 1 second. It also depends on the speed of the shutter curtain.
A camera which does high FPS will need a faster AF, but there is no reason to assume that you cannot find fast AF modules on bodies which do not do 10FPS kind of speeds. 450D has a better AF module than 350D and 1000D, even though its not a sports kind of camera. Use the center focus point, and it will focus quickly even in not so good light and not so good contrast of the subject.
In the context of cameras being discussed here 1000D/450D/500D/40D and 50D doesn't FPS and AF speed go hand in hand ?

450D , 500D and 50D use same Digic 4 Soc where as 350D and 1000D use Digic 3.
I do not know exact relationship between processor and focus speed but one of the feature of Digic4 available in public domain is Servo AF which makes continuous focusing possible for moving objects.

In good lighting conditions Servo AF works very well for constantly moving objects.
In bad light spot metering on subject with shutter pressed 1/2 is the way.

I don't think servo mode is available in 350D or 1000D.

Last edited by amitk26 : 25th August 2010 at 14:47.
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Old 25th August 2010, 14:40   #4826
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post

1. Live view is very handy for long exposure shots, 1000D does not have it.
So even if I assume low light performance is very good on 1000D compared to 500D/50D/40D how does it help if I will be shaking the body peeping in to view finder? Of-course one can compose and then use remote trigger but it is about ease of use.
It does have Live View !!

I am not an expert on photography since i just bought a 1000D as an entry level cam 4 months back. I am loving everybit of it. Its easy on the pocket and the best choice for newbie like me to photography.
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Old 25th August 2010, 14:43   #4827
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So when you buy a body make sure you need it and it satisfies you needs. On this thread 90% of people who end up buying DSLRs would have been much better off with a mega zoom.
This is exactly my trouble. I also take snaps of lots of landscapes on most cases. So was thinking should I buy an entry level DSLR or a good megazoom should be good for me (Panasonic FZ40/FZ100).
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Old 25th August 2010, 14:52   #4828
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It does have Live View !!

I am not an expert on photography since i just bought a 1000D as an entry level cam 4 months back. I am loving everybit of it. Its easy on the pocket and the best choice for newbie like me to photography.
LOL that nullifies a lot of discussion we had on this thread for 1000D , but still there are some people who say Live view is of no use where as for the use cases I provided in previous post I find it useful.

So now spot metering , Servo AF, Number of AF points and AF speed are the missing features apart from video.

Last edited by amitk26 : 25th August 2010 at 14:53.
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Old 25th August 2010, 14:55   #4829
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
First what I mean by long exposure here in this case is 300 mm focal length with 1/30 or 1/60 shutter speed to compensate for low light.
Normally 1/400 is the min for sharp pic but late in the evening a tripod mounted cam with 1/30 works fine. Live view helps because you need to trigger at the exact moment like wings are spread or feet touching water. You can look in to the view finder but crouching to peek in for more then 20-30 min not very friendly on back and neck muscles.

This slow shutter speed of 1/30 may look normal but in this context given the focal length it is longer exposure then normal. This is very typical scenario for early morning late evening photography.
I do not see any alternative until I up my budget substantially and procure bigger better telephoto lens which works well in low light and are fast.

Hope this explains the point.
Yes, for such scenarios live view will work, as you do not need to go near the camera, but with little effort you can use the viewfinder. I normally think of long exposure as few seconds atleast
Quote:

Clouds playing hide and seek, swinging tree branch or birds /bats in the night for instance. A moon shot is not for sake of moon which everyone knows how it looks like. Here you do not want to induce any shake so live view with remote release works well.
quickly look through the viewfinder, and then get back and shoot. If your scene is changing such that even 2 seconds will make a different, then long exposure will come out botched
Quote:
And how exactly focus accuracy will be achieved for an object at a distance when metering is not accurate ?
What has metering got to do with focus accuracy? You can accurately focus even with evaluative metering.
Just because you are using center focus point, does not mean you have to meter using that point too You can meter manually, or using evaluative, use spot, use center weighted, it will make no difference to the focus, which depends on the focus point, and how well contrasted is the subject matter under that focus point. For example, even if you have a camera with spot metering, you cannot focus on plain blue sky, you need contrast. Focusing and metering are totally different things. You can take a picture which is underexosed by 2 stops, and yet get accurate focus(its another matter picture will be dark)

Quote:
In the context of cameras being discussed here 1000D/450D/500D/40D and 50D doesn't FPS and AF speed go hand in hand ?

450D , 500D and 50D use same Digic 4 Soc where as 350D and 1000D use Digic 3.
I do not know exact relationship between processor and focus speed but one of the feature of Digic4 available in public domain is Servo AF which makes continuous focusing possible for moving objects.

In good lighting conditions Servo AF works very well for constantly moving objects.
In bad light spot metering on subject with shutter pressed 1/2 is the way.

I don't think servo mode is available in 350D or 1000D.
Focus accuracy is depending on AF module, not on the processor. Processor helps with the burst speed. Along with a fast processor, you also need a bigger buffer, and probably faster shutter mechanism.
Cameras sharing same AF module will have similar focus speed an accuracy.
For example 500D and 50D cross type focus points focus with same speed on lenses brighter than F2.8, even though their burst speeds are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ampere View Post
This is exactly my trouble. I also take snaps of lots of landscapes on most cases. So was thinking should I buy an entry level DSLR or a good megazoom should be good for me (Panasonic FZ40/FZ100).
If you do take a lot of shots over ISO 400, or have the need to do so, go for a DSLR(or any large sensor camera).
Otherwise go P&S
If you plan to do mostly landscapes, a short zoom like LX-5 makes more sense. Decent high ISO performance, and very good lens.
Its 24mm at wide end, and that helps a lot with landscapes. But remember 100mm long end may be too less for you. OTOH, the FZ-100 is 25mm to 600mm. So if you stick to ISO 100-200 max, you are okay
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
LOL that nullifies a lot of discussion we had on this thread for 1000D , but still there are some people who say Live view is of no use where as for the use cases I provided in previous post I find it useful.

So now spot metering , Servo AF, Number of AF points and AF speed are the missing features apart from video.
350D has servo AF(continuous focus tracking on a moving object), are you sure 1000D does not have it?
As for spot metering, I do not think you understand the concept of metering, and in which cases spot metering is used. It has nothing to do with focusing.
As for number of focus points, 99% of people use center focus point always, even people who have 11 AF or 20AF points, On most cams center focus point is the fastest, and often cross type.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 25th August 2010 at 15:04.
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Old 25th August 2010, 15:01   #4830
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
LOL that nullifies a lot of discussion we had on this thread for 1000D , but still there are some people who say Live view is of no use where as for the use cases I provided in previous post I find it useful.

So now spot metering , Servo AF, Number of AF points and AF speed are the missing features apart from video.
Live View does come in handy for me atleast (in a very weirdo way) Lemme explain:

First it is very useful to take pictures lifting the cam above people`s heads when in crowded public environment. Secoundly (here comes the weird part), I don`t own a tripod as of now. I lost it. So when last night i wanted to click the moonlight falling on the mountains from my balcony. I placed the cam on the balcony wall, switched to live view. Set the timer to 2 sec and pressed the shutter button. Since the wall is 6 inch thick i couldn`t have possible seen the view from view finder. Hence, it was useful. Here the image i clicked. Not a pro but should give u an idea of what i mean.

P.S.: Can u see the mountains smiling.
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Last edited by Abbas : 25th August 2010 at 15:02.
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