Go Back   Team-BHP > Around the Corner > Shifting gears > Gadgets, Computers & Software


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th June 2014, 12:22   #271
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Info withheld
Posts: 128
Thanked: 336 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by F150 View Post
Which version of android are you all using ? Did you all switch the location settings to high accuracy when you were driving to your destinations?
I was using PC to find my route, and not as such navigation. And PC is considered the most accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Friends, crap happens but no point being worked up. Other alternatives just don't have as much information at all. It may be a bit crappy but its far better than others!

You can always do a quick google to confirm the address, and then put the address in.

Infact GMaps also returns the phone number of POIs such as showrooms so u can call them before you start. MMI etc just don't have that kinda stuff - e.g bakeries etc.

Here let me clarify, I am trying to find the route between Amritsar to Manali, not xyz street amritsar to abc hotel Manali. I do expect it to give me the route rather perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
One can lose credibility if a perfectly working services started deteriorating. But that ain't the case with GPS from any company, that are used in India.

Unlike first world countries, our road addressing system is highly unscientific. Consider an US address, every address has a building number, street name, town name, state and zip. In India only state and pin-code are guaranteed, rest could be anything.

My Bangalore address has apartment number and building name, there is no building number.
My Manipal address has house name, followed by landmark description, there is no street name.
If you live in Jayanagar, 6th block, Bangalore... what is your town name?
Consider Jayanagar, 4th T block... why is it next to 9th block? Why there is no S block before T block?
If you live in 24th cross, 6th main... what is your street name?

India is a map-maker's nightmare. Let's not blame GPS providers for this mess. It is the legacy of our stupid address convention, which follows no logic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
The routing is done by algorithm, which usually gets better with time

Google by default suggested via NH71. It also suggested via NH1, which is what was recommended by members here. I don't see any cause for concern.

AFAIK, Google sources India maps from Map My India. MMI maps are good and in some cities show the house numbers as well.
Route 1: Gurgaon -> Rohtak -> Jind -> Sangrur -> Ludhiana -> Jalandhar -> Pathankot -> Dalhousie

Route 2: NH1/AH1: Gurgaon -> Panipat -> Karnal -> Chandigarh (Bypass) -> Rupnagar -> Nangal -> Nurpur -> Dalhousie

Route 3: (not on google) Gurgaon - Delhi - Sonipat - Panipat - Karnal - Ambala - Ludhiana Jalandhar Pathankot Dalhousie


Now if you dont follow the 3rd route which is not on google, you are set for one harrowing time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
To add one more thing
The specific Amritsar Manali instance.
If you look at the all three routes, you will see they are not different from the best and common route.
Same mix of national and state highways are used.
In the west its very easy because freeways have a different naming system etc.

Here the "National highway" may be borderline un-motorable and the tiny state road may be 10X better.

Unless we start following proper naming conventions and proper roads this problem will always be there.

So Google maps here should be used as a guideline and not instruction.

Pardon my ignorance, but the route I took was Amritsar-Rupnagar(Ropar), then on the 6 lane highway to Kiratpur, then onto Bilaspur, and so on.

And IMO this is the best route with the best roads. And its not on Google.


Quote:
Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Agree.. but what about the errors i pointed out. Do you think that Om Beach is a place which should be missed in the map?

See, thats exactly what I mean. You cant miss out landmarks s huge as that.
HyperRetard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 12:34   #272
Team-BHP Support
 
Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: B'lore-Manipal
Posts: 22,045
Thanked: 13,496 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Agree.. but what about the errors i pointed out. Do you think that Om Beach is a place which should be missed in the map?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperRetard View Post
See, thats exactly what I mean. You cant miss out landmarks s huge as that.
Once I entered Nandi Hills as my destination, hoping such a wellknown destination won't be missed, and blindly followed it. It took me via Chikballapur and then landed me at Nandi Temple behind Nandi Hills. Then I had to ask around to find my way to Nandi hills. This was in Garmin device that used MMI maps.

None of the GPS maps of India have any credibility. So there is nothing to lose.
Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 12:43   #273
Senior - BHPian
 
KiloAlpha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Cubicle
Posts: 1,231
Thanked: 1,389 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

Sincere advice to all here - stop using any GPS in India as a perfect navigation tool. We live in India, remember? It is as much a hodge-podge mix of all kinds of road addressing/numbering systems as it is a hodge-podge mix of cultures.

Use google maps as ... a map!! Please learn to read a map, there are clues to the urban terrain in the map itself. And, anytime you are going to some new place, ask for a nearby unmissable landmark, get there, and then ask for directions.

Personally, I don't use GPS at all. It makes life that much more interesting, it forces you to interact with your immediate environment, and makes the journey interesting!
KiloAlpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 12:43   #274
Senior - BHPian
 
dass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,039
Thanked: 427 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

My recent trip to Munnar was a nightmare because of google maps. Never had it been so bad that I went past sterling resorts where I booked and I missed looking at the hoardings, which were towards the opposite direction and it took me straight to the town bus stand and told my destination has arrived.
Not just this, every landmark I entered while at Munnar I was led to a non existent roads and had to rely on my broken malayalam to find my way out.

I thought this may have been due to the hilly terrain, as while I was in Pondy late last year, the entire sightseeing was based on google maps and it was 100% accurate. Now reading these posts, I am confused and worried if I should follow it at all.
What are the other FREE alternatives?
dass is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 12:48   #275
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,018
Thanked: 520 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post

None of the GPS maps of India have any credibility. So there is nothing to lose.
The problem is lot of people think otherwise. In Goa I had a tyre break out and needed to go to an Apollo showroom some where in Mapusa. Google map kept me in a loop in a highly congested area, I could not find a trace of any tyre showroom in that area. Finally had enough and called the showroom guy directly, with in 3 minutes he guided me to the destination which was 4 streets away. He told me that he was about to close the shop and further delay means I would have stranded with out spare tyre for a full day. So if I knew Google map were this crap I would not have wasted my time.

Last edited by poloman : 26th June 2014 at 12:53.
poloman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 12:51   #276
BHPian
 
adarsh.n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Chennai
Posts: 29
Thanked: 18 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by F150 View Post
Which version of android are you all using ? Did you all switch the location settings to high accuracy when you were driving to your destinations?
I use an iPhone and all the apps are updates as and when the updates are released.

I find the pre-installed maps to be better when it comes to interior parts than google maps.
adarsh.n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 14:32   #277
Distinguished - BHPian
 
DerAlte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 8,076
Thanked: 2,867 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
The routing is done by algorithm, which usually gets better with time ...
NOT! There is no adaptive logic. And, you have to remember that the program implementing the algorithm is 'killed' - which means the algorithm reinitializes with no memory of prior routing results. Don't confuse with "destinations previously searched for" in your Google profile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
AFAIK, Google sources India maps from Map My India. ...
Huh? No! They started ages back with Navteq stock. Like Apple started with TomTom stock. Map data is much, much more than just the geo-coordinates and vector descriptions.

Mind you, address errors is not Google's fault to a large extent. The inaccuracies are due to laissez faire usage by people whose data is in there. Much of Google's address data has come from the old Google "Places for Business" / "My Business" database where people entered their own addresses. The locha with that method was most people were unaware that Google automation would suggest the nearest location known to Google, and not to the actual resolved address. Most people assumed that is their location on the map - and never corrected it. Many haven't even looked at their map location to verify whether it is correct or not.

For example, if your address is at one end of 15th Main, and that road is 2Km long, your location will ultimately show up as 1Km from where it is (Google Maps tries to put the label at the center of the road extents). One can correct this anomaly by specifying the geo-location on the map. However, accurately placing the location marker depends on the Zoom level when carrying out the action. If one is zoomed out sufficiently, the error will be proportional to the unit grid distance at that zoom level. Zooming IN sufficiently (high magnification) shows building outlines, which can help in selecting the right place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
... MMI maps are good and in some cities show the house numbers as well.
That is the conundrum, no? How does one know which cities it is good for? Forget mis-spelt (e.g. Annad instead of Anand) and wrongly entered data (i.e. 1th Main instead of 12th Main) - I have found addresses which cannot be searched with common sense logic. And I have seen bloopers in addresses which make it very ambiguous. If one doesn't notice the ambiguity, one lands up at the wrong place. What happens when the landmark given, say XYZ Bakery, happens to be a hole-in-the-wall joint? You forget the destination and go crazy looking for that landmark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Once I entered Nandi Hills as my destination, hoping such a wellknown destination won't be missed, and blindly followed it. ...
The 'blindly' is the keyword. I have burnt my fingers many times in the past, and am NEVER satisfied till I find more than 2 clues falling in place with the destination it suggests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloAlpha View Post
... Please learn to read a map, there are clues to the urban terrain in the map itself. ...
I started with paper maps ages back, which is why I never rely on Nav systems totally or blindly. I still carry the relevant paper map on my journeys - just to obviate Murphy's Law governing my life in case of technology failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloAlpha View Post
... It makes life that much more interesting ...
Heh heh unfortunately sometimes it is just too interesting when Murphy's law prevails. There are many people who are so mortally scared of new tastes that they will do detailed research beforehand to seek familiar flavors in an unknown place, like insisting on South Indian meals in Lucknow or Darjeeling, or Rajma / Kadhi Chawal in Madurai or Kumbakonam. Exactly the opposite of asking: "Hey guys, tell me which are the must-eat things in that place, and the must visit restaurants". The same prevails while traveling - lack of curiosity in anything local other than the 'tourist attraction' or the final destination.
DerAlte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 14:42   #278
Senior - BHPian
 
msdivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,426
Thanked: 771 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
The routing is done by algorithm, which usually gets better with time
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
NOT! There is no adaptive logic. And, you have to remember that the program implementing the algorithm is 'killed' - which means the algorithm reinitializes with no memory of prior routing results. Don't confuse with "destinations previously searched for" in your Google profile.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. 'Get better with time' - I meant with enhancements to routing algorithm (with software update) not as in adaptive learning.
msdivy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 15:00   #279
Distinguished - BHPian
 
DerAlte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 8,076
Thanked: 2,867 Times
Default Re: Are Google Maps losing their credibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
Sorry, I wasn't clear. 'Get better with time' - I meant with enhancements to routing algorithm (with software update) not as in adaptive learning.
Nothing has changed in the last 15 years. It is unlikely to change in the next 15. The Routing algorithm is a quite simple mathematical algorithm, really. It is the same in US as in India.

The difference in results is in the quality and sufficiency of map data. As Samurai mentioned, there is a SINGLE system of address specification in US, Canada and Europe. In India, there are as many as states and districts. It will take another 15 years for India maps to reach a uniform level of reliable data for Navigation to improve.

Perhaps we need a different Address Search algorithm than simple string search, which works when the Address system is standard, but fails in India. What can you do when 18th Cross, 6th Main means a location on 6th Main NEARER to 18th Main than 17th, and there can be ANOTHER house on the same 6th Main which is described as 17th Cross, 6th Main???
DerAlte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 15:24   #280
Senior - BHPian
 
NetfreakBombay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1,375
Thanked: 315 Times
Default Re: Google Maps making MapMyIndia (and similar products) obsolete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The difference in results is in the quality and sufficiency of map data. As Samurai mentioned, there is a SINGLE system of address specification in US, Canada and Europe. In India, there are as many as states and districts. It will take another 15 years for India maps to reach a uniform level of reliable data for Navigation to improve.
Perhaps the solution is not to use address search at all.

With time, Google's car would have photographed signboard of Every Shop/Housing Society/Schools etc.

With that, it would know that Lat/Long for gate of "ABC School" and would not have to rely on postal address.

Google is now pretty good at reading street numbers on sign boards (success rate of 95% +) . Its OCR was so good that it solved CAPTCHA correctly in more than 99% of attempts.
NetfreakBombay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 15:27   #281
Senior - BHPian
 
msdivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,426
Thanked: 771 Times
Default Re: Google Maps making MapMyIndia (and similar products) obsolete?

There seem to be 2 issues with maps:
1) Finding the right POI, by entering the address
2) Given 2 POIs, route an 'ideal' route.

OP raised concern about 2nd point. Yes 1st point is bigger problem than 2nd currently in India. The way I overcome 1st problem is I get GPS co-ordinates via Google maps on or other sites. Then use the device to route between 2 GPS co-ordinates. 99% of the time this works fine.
msdivy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 16:51   #282
Distinguished - BHPian
 
DerAlte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 8,076
Thanked: 2,867 Times
Default Re: Google Maps making MapMyIndia (and similar products) obsolete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
... With time, ...
True, but there would be an element of idealism in that expectation. Just think about the monumental lack of civic consciousness in poster pasters, which will take a few generations to go away. Most street signs are covered with posters of the latest movie or political party or some such subject. We must realize that technology alone doesn't solve a technology problem in India - there is always a 'more to it' SNAFU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
... OP raised concern about 2nd point. Yes 1st point is bigger problem than 2nd currently in India. ...
It is the Problem 2 that is severely affected by bad quality map data. This is due to *complete absence* of town planning standards. One can never assume that a given road is of a certain speed standard in the map! This is true for roads in zones marked Residential as well as Commercial in the City Plan. There are some roads in some areas marked Residential (lucky residents) which are 100' wide, and there are roads in Commercial areas which are 30' wide. There are some 80-100' wide roads which used to be a breeze to drive on long back, till the residential area became commercial with people selling off houses to builders making commercial buildings. Then it becomes a nightmare to drive on. Case in point: Indira Nagar and Koramangala in Bangalore.

THAT is the missing data in the electronic maps. Any Road Class assumption is hazardous. Google ignores this value altogether, and then we complain that it is putting us on barely navigable roads! Somehow, Garmin, MMI etc. have this value as a Road Class number, and use it in Routing.
DerAlte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 17:19   #283
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,093
Thanked: 630 Times
Default Re: Google Maps making MapMyIndia (and similar products) obsolete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dass
My recent trip to Munnar was a nightmare because of google maps.
I had an older version of Map My India (Version 4.0) when we (me and my wife) drove down to Munnar. I searched MMI for the hotel and it clearly said it knew the place. I had got some rude surprises earlier, so I checked the telephone numbers also listed for that Point of Interest. Those were valid phone numbers. I assumed that the device had the latest information ready.

We crossed Munnar town, and the device said we had around 9 odd kms to go. We crossed the reserve forest (having some deers) and went ahead. Finally we reached the Tea plantation of Kannan Devan tea, and the device still said we had 6 kms to go. We thought that the hotel was in such an exotic location - right in the middle of a huge tea plantation with nothing else to disturb. And when MMI said "You have reached your destination", there was nothing in sight!! :( . Mobile phones went out of coverage area by this time. So we drove all the way back to the town, and called up the hotel. The hotel was just at the town, next to a small rivulet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte
Forget mis-spelt (e.g. Annad instead of Anand) and wrongly entered data (i.e. 1th Main instead of 12th Main) - I have found addresses which cannot be searched with common sense logic. And I have seen bloopers in addresses which make it very ambiguous
I had Map My India 8.1 on my device, and I empathise with you. They have made a mockery of all place names, especially in Southern states. Just now upgraded to Ver 9.0. Would give the feedback soon. I don't know if Map My India is allowing every one to update their database (instead of a dedicated team, plotting and verifying the data - especially place names). I have sent them an enquiry as well. Are the places shown in http://maps.mapmyindia.com exactly spelt the same way on the maps in the device as well. They are yet to respond.

Quote:
It is the Problem 2 that is severely affected by bad quality map data. This is due to *complete absence* of town planning standards.
The culture of Maps (and also Map Reading) I guess is non-existant in India. I would really like to check on how much of surveys Govt. of India has done, and replotted the graphs. The initial versions of Map My India had relied on age old maps (perhaps made during British times). The state highway connecting Palakkad Town to Cherpulasseri Town is known as "Parayankaadu Road". I have checked with the locals on where this "Parayankaadu" is. None of them even knew such a place existed.

Foreign countries, I feel had this great idea to maintain authentic maps. With this basic structure in place, others fell in place. First came the huge navigational maps, which common people could easily use. And when Sattelite Navigation came in, they just used the same navigational maps as the reference point and build more stuff on top of it.

But I am optimistic. With private parties involving in cartography, with India having enough and more sattelites to get the high level picture, and with more and more people owning vehicles now - better GPS devices would come in soon.

PS: Till around 10 years back there was no authentic Railway map available in India. The Railway Divisions and Zones had some bits& broken pieces pertaining to their territory. Finally it took a cartograhpy hobbyist to come up with a good authentic map for the entire country.
sachinpk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 17:33   #284
Senior - BHPian
 
NetfreakBombay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1,375
Thanked: 315 Times
Default Re: Google Maps making MapMyIndia (and similar products) obsolete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Just think about the monumental lack of civic consciousness in poster pasters, which will take a few generations to go away. Most street signs are covered with posters of the latest movie or political party or some such subject.
This would certainly be an issue for street signs placed by municipality / govt bodies.

Commercial establishments will usually take care of it themselves since it is in their best interest.

In the example that I gave, unless "ABC School" is a govt/municipal school its sign board will usually be legible and can be used by Google / Navteq to build POI database.

With that, a house should be easy to locate if we know if it is near Pizza Hut in XYZ Nagar.

E.g.: look at this road in Bangalore:

http://www.wonobo.com/explore/bangal...h/guzzlers-inn

(this company seems to have done a good job in identifying POI)
NetfreakBombay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2014, 18:15   #285
Distinguished - BHPian
 
DerAlte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 8,076
Thanked: 2,867 Times
Default Re: Google Maps making MapMyIndia (and similar products) obsolete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
... E.g.: look at this road in Bangalore:

http://www.wonobo.com/explore/bangal...h/guzzlers-inn

(this company seems to have done a good job in identifying POI)
Looks nifty with it's UI, but it is *terrible* at the moment. They have a very limited PoI database (limited to well known businesses), and are unable to return known results that Google Maps would. All the data is manually entered, and the street view is stitched images.

This is not a mapping application - I searched for my house address, it pointed my to the area bus stop, and that also in the wrong place - it showed a Bus Depot, instead of a Bus Stop. It will be a while before their data is reliable: I searched for Pizza Hut in my area, it showed my Dominos Pizza in an area in the diametrically opposite part of town, 15Km away, and listed Pizza Huts in a handful of other areas nowhere near to my location!!!
DerAlte is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Google Maps on Mobile sharathjeppu Gadgets, Computers & Software 70 9th May 2016 12:29
Sygic Maps Vs MMI maps, what's the difference? rkbharat Gadgets, Computers & Software 38 1st July 2014 07:43
Using Google & Yahoo India Maps on standalone GPS Device Haste Gadgets, Computers & Software 9 30th September 2008 19:59
Google maps mobile 2.0 - poor man's GPS tachobells Gadgets, Computers & Software 4 1st December 2007 11:19
Autocop and such similar products are of limited use! Zappo The Indian Car Scene 21 20th February 2007 20:31


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:57.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks