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Old 10th August 2014, 18:41   #46
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Free? Says who? Whatsapp uses the Internet and we pay the Telcos for using the internet. Just as you pay the telco to read this sentence or use google or gmail. So the telco's get money when whatsapp is used.

End of story.
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Old 10th August 2014, 19:19   #47
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Data is paid and we both know it or did someone assume I wouldn't be aware of that? That would be dumb. I guess you missed the point. What I meant is whatsapp or FB doesn't charge me for usage. "Free" in that sense. We already pay for data to telcos. Now charging further for usage of whatsapp and such apps will be charging subscribers twice for the same purpose. These are things we all know.
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Old 10th August 2014, 19:36   #48
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

What next? Will they start charging for emails because it is a threat to the Postal department?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
I'm surprised people think services like whatsapp are 'free'! Would Facebook acquire a company giving free services for 19 billion dollars if the projected returns would not have justified the investment?

But yes- they don't have any of the traditional revenue models we all know of- like pay per use, or even advertisements. However, they hold one of the biggest repository of 'real-time data' in the world currently. And that too, growing at an astonishing rate. Data so vast, we can't even think of the processing power required to make sense of it. That's where big data engines and data analytics come into the picture.

In the modern digital world- Data is a resource. Data is money.
Spot on analysis! That's what even I concluded from the Facebook-WhatsApp deal. Facebook simply couldn't resist the data mine that WhatsApp was sitting on; and WhatsApp had a demographic that Facebook couldn't penetrate - the mobile users and all their cell phone contacts.

With the acquisition and the forced linking of Facebook user's mobile number to Facebook account, they have practically connected the WhatsApp user data to the corresponding Facebook user data. And all this goes to the highest bidder for doing whatever they want with that data!

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to return back to slightly older technologies.

Last edited by zenren : 10th August 2014 at 19:38.
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Old 10th August 2014, 20:24   #49
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Team Bhp allows you to send messages and make posts like fb does. And tbhp doesnt charge for that service. So is TRAI going to charge for using Team-Bhp too?
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Old 10th August 2014, 20:34   #50
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

This thread is drifting away from its subject matter. :-)

On one side, we see news like this: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/40013512.cms

And on the other side, it seems that one will have to pay more to use WhatsApp. It appears to me that TRAI has forgotten its mission ("facilitate growth of telecommunications in India") and has started believing its mission is to facilitate the missions of our individual telecom behemoths.

A second, technical question is this: How will they actually implement the charge on WhatsApp alone, if they go ahead with this?

- Will every phone owner be asked to bring his or her phone for inspection?

Given that WhatsApp says their mobile-server communication is completely encrypted, I doubt it will be possible for them to perform DPI. So,

- Will they force WhatsApp the way they arm-twisted RIM to install servers in India?
- Will they force Google/Apple/Microsoft/... to take WhatsApp off their app stores in India and instead allow its installation only at the service providers' service centers?
- What about the phones on which it is pre-installed? Will those be banned?

Anyone who knows how the telcos plan to do this? Or how they have done this sort of thing in the past?

Edit: WhatsApp above is a placeholder for every such service available. Includes Hangouts, Snapchat and many more.

Last edited by binand : 10th August 2014 at 20:38.
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Old 10th August 2014, 21:36   #51
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Hi All,

This is just the tip of a large iceberg called 'Net Neutrality'. Unfortunately in India, telcos have started launching this scathing attack on Whatsapp.

On a larger stage, this is one of the major issue to be dealt with to maintain Net Neutrality. I suggest members to go through this to get an Idea about the bigger picture. In US already the telcos are penalizing sites like Netflix, which are a threat to cable TV. This is highly unacceptable. This could be termed as shrewd capitalism.

Also I'm paying for the Data connection and for the Data traffic. Telcos shouldn't bother whatever I do with the net connection . Basically its irrelevant for the ISPs to bother about the content of the Data Traffic as long as I pay for the connection and the bandwidth.

To relate this to the automobile industry for the better understanding in this fourm, I would give this example: " I Bought a Maruthi Swift. It is at my discretion the usage is but not the Suzuki's. I might go alone or give a lift to a friend or I car pool, or I in fact transport garbage in my swift. It is immaterial for Suzuki. What right they have to condition my usage?".

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Old 10th August 2014, 22:40   #52
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Now this is really a poor move. Is this the so called "Acche din" which were chanted out loud to the general masses?
I mean why do the agencies and government want their cut in everything!?

And even if one does make a call through these apps, he/she does so through the very same internet which these providers are very well charging for, no one gives gratis service now days you know. As for the people who use these services via Wifi, well thats a completely different ball game isn't it?

And i dont think it is justified or even valid to say that providers are going in losses.
I still remember the craze of the day when bbm had just come in and the people were charged by the providers to use them! Not to forget the fact that they made some serious money by freely marketing it! Perhaps something like the "Vodafone Blackberry boys"? But no one complained at that time did they?
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Old 11th August 2014, 04:25   #53
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyBoi View Post
Ermmm they expect companies such as Viber or WhatsApp to pay TRAI/telcos, not end users.

WhatsApp isn't free anyway; users must pay 1$ a year after the first free year.
Not just that; the users are paying for the data usage also.


This is ridiculous because people are already using data in compliance with TRAI guidelines. Then charging again based on the purpose of the usage is real rip-off. This is like charging for the voice calls first and then charging a second time for that call based on the content or purpose of that call like calling parents, other relatives, girl/boy friend, etc. No wonder people are hell bent on finding every loophole not to pay the government or just outright evade it!

PS: First post on the forum. Turned out this way because the subject happened to be a passionate one!
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Old 11th August 2014, 06:59   #54
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Big brother (bhai/anna) always wants a share. One cannot make business without Him. He is saying it nicely, giving some reasons. Maybe the postal department needs to be paid a portion of the revenues, they are almost extinct with the onset of SMS and mobiles. The service in rural areas is miserable, 2G does not work properly, the tower is not maintained at all, nobody cares even after numerous complaints. This is why TRAI needs to be paid?
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Old 11th August 2014, 08:51   #55
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

A very interesting flow of thoughts from everyone. I completely agree that there is no logic whatsoever on charging a particular application usage when I am already paying for the Internet package, both at home and on mobile. I would be double charged for the same service i.e., "Internet connectivity".

Whatever success the OTT's get, Its because of the customers using their services. Telcos have never contributed to their success. Its really absurd to think that Telcos made them what they are (Ironically, they might have helped OTT's inversely by not innovating or by giving wrong services).

Ultimately, Telcos or TRAI can only control the pricing of the service vis-a-vis Calls and Internet connectivity but not what we do with those service.
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Old 11th August 2014, 10:16   #56
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
You do pay for all this and using the apps with your data charges - the operator's aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
Exactly correct. The ISP who gives you the internet over which your Whatsapp or any other data flows, is charging you for every bit that you use. Let's not forget that they are already implementing ridiculous things like so-called Fair Usage Policy and whatnot. And seriously, 512 kbps is considered 'broadband'??

SMS revenue is down because the telecoms have not woken up to the fact that there are better / cheaper options out there. They need to wake up to the paradigm shift and adapt, not try to kill competition by charging. Tomorrow they will ask to charge for emails, because their Fax revenue is going down? Perhaps the Govt should charge for emails since it killed the telegram?

Perhaps Operators need to figure out how to implement their own messaging apps and monetise them.

Last edited by Fusion2006 : 11th August 2014 at 10:17. Reason: Added points about free email
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Old 11th August 2014, 10:56   #57
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

This is a serious threat to net neutrality. And the worst part is that the organization that should probably be responsible for enforcing net neutrality is the offender here.

I have purchased bandwidth by paying the telecom companies and the telecom companies have paid the government for the right to sell bandwidth. Why charge me again for the same thing? Whatsapp, Viber, Skype, et all are simply using bandwidth that the customer has purchased. If at all there is anyone who can claim a fee (and some do) for the service being provided; it should be Whatsapp. Viber etc.

Yes, if the government decides that Skype (as an example) is illegal due to security concerns, then it is a separate story. Or, if a VOIP provider facilitates a call to a mobile network or landline then an interconnect fee makes sense. But local VOIP calls are not allowed in India. i.e. You can not use Skype Out to dial an India number from India. I am OK with that (for now). But paying for something that I have already paid for is seriously absurd.
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Old 11th August 2014, 11:06   #58
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by binand View Post
Also, I see you are on the carrier side of the net neutrality debate; are you involved in the industry?
Yes I am on the carrier side of the Net Neutrality debate. I am involved in the industry yes, but not in the country.

For the last few years traffic has been shooting up exponentially while the flat-data revenues aren't growing anywhere in proportion, and are definitely not paying for the hundreds of millions required to upgrade infrastructure to cope with the traffic.

So you end up with pathetic net speeds - its like a local bus thats designed to carry 36, but everyone jumps and soon the bus is crammed to the gills with about 102. You need more buses, but the current fares dont justify an investment.

If regular fares can't be increased or are not elastic, you begin charging the bhajiwala, the dhobi and the dabbawala extra because they use the bus to facilitate their business by carrying their stuff. That may eventually pay for new buses to make it easier for the regular commuter.

At the end, it can only be better for the regular customer. But then everybody here prefers to look at it as a 'customer' issue, when really the customer should end up gaining from this deal. Read the proposal before you reach for the keyboard - making bulk data generating businesses pay could end up in lower rates for regular browsing. Some operators already offer free email and FUP-capped free browsing to their customers since they now get higher revenue-shares from those businesses than they would by charging customers for it.

In any case, this is not the forum for discussing the merits or otherwise of telecom policy.

Last edited by Steeroid : 11th August 2014 at 11:12.
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Old 11th August 2014, 11:09   #59
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by torque!! View Post
This is a serious threat to net neutrality. And the worst part is that the organization that should probably be responsible for enforcing net neutrality is the offender here.


Or, if a VOIP provider facilitates a call to a mobile network or landline then an interconnect fee makes sense. But local VOIP calls are not allowed in India. i.e. You can not use Skype Out to dial an India number from India. I am OK with that (for now). But paying for something that I have already paid for is seriously absurd.
You know the real reason why local VOIP is not legit in India?
It has got nothing to do security or terrorism.

Imagine what will happen to the revenues of old technology like 2G if local VOIP works good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G V Krishna View Post
Hi All,

This is just the tip of a large iceberg called 'Net Neutrality'. Unfortunately in India, telcos have started launching this scathing attack on Whatsapp.


To relate this to the automobile industry for the better understanding in this fourm, I would give this example: " I Bought a Maruthi Swift. It is at my discretion the usage is but not the Suzuki's. I might go alone or give a lift to a friend or I car pool, or I in fact transport garbage in my swift. It is immaterial for Suzuki. What right they have to condition my usage?".

Very good example about Suzuki!
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Old 11th August 2014, 11:13   #60
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Default Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
Free? Says who? Whatsapp uses the Internet and we pay the Telcos for using the internet. Just as you pay the telco to read this sentence or use google or gmail. So the telco's get money when whatsapp is used.

End of story.
When you really think about it, Shouldn't Whatsapp charge the Telco companies? Afterall they are helping with adoption rate of services Telcos are providing?
I opted for a 2GB Data plan because
a. Whatsapp
b. Email (Both official and personal)
c. FaceTime
d. Waze and Google Maps
e. Foursquare
f. Tunein Radio
Then bunch of other apps that require Net connectivity. Now if these services did not exist, I wouldnt have opted for a data plan. If some of them existed (Say whatsapp and GMaps) and not others (like TuneIn and FaceTime), I would have opted for a smaller data pack. So in a way, Am I not generating extra revenue for Vodafone when I opt for a bigger data pack because I'm a heavy user? And I was promoted to being a heavy user because of the services in question. So why is that these services need to pay the telco?

Infact, the best argument they can have is "Hey, I scratch your back (Telco provides access to services), and you scratch mine(these services drive higher data usage and drives customers to more expensive data plans)".

If they are not making money from the Data usages, that is just plain bad Business strategy, you cannot blame others for being an idiot.
Oh, no offence to anyone. I dont have a business accumen. But (I Think) I have a strong common sense, which ironically isn't all that common.

And yes, 2GB Seems less for all the services I use, but I have WiFi at both Home and Office. So Data is only for the times when I'm on road. Perhaps Telcos need to charge my office Wifi, and Home Wifi manufacturers for eating into their business.
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